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Old 09-04-18, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KYPREO View Post
To the OP, I don't think anyone has actually asked whether you will be tuning this yourself. It's all well and good to weigh up pros and cons of different ECUs and whether they have good user documentation etc, but the lack of a support manual is largely irrelevant if the person doing the tune knows their way around the product. While the advice in here is well-intentioned (and not necessarily wrong either!), what they might not appreciate is that in Sydney you have an endless source of tuners who can easily get you 500rwhp from a 13B from many different platforms. There are several well respected tuners in Sydney who know Adaptronic Modulars and will be able to tune them for you - it's actually where Adaptronic is based. I can think of 2 off the top of my head and I don't even live in NSW. That said, there are heaps of tuners who can do Haltech or Microtech for that matter. There will be certain features you get with different ECUs (eg Microtech can't do sequential twin turbos) but primarily the platform you use should be the one your tuner is familiar with and recommends.
All good info here.

My concern isn't necessarily with the ease of tuning or advertised ability of the various ECU's but specifically the hardware/software design and integration and I can name multiple hard examples of some real sketchy failures and issues as well as the end user contacts for said conditions. I won't be discussing that here though I just got back from a ban today for expressing my opinion on the matter. Given the top level status of what has gone on here recently in the ECU world, it should be pretty clear what the choice should/shouldn't be from a hardware/software/support standpoint. The tuner is only as capable as the hardware he/she is working with is reliable.

I think you've got a ways to go with turbo, fuel and the single system as a whole before you get to making a hard ECU selection.

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Old 09-05-18, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
Sorry you feel that way but I have every right to let everyone know I didn't make a post that I was accused of making. I do not make comments about products I have no knowledge of.

Yes you do. And acting like a child manipulating capitalization to attack someone rather than be mature and civil when you represent a business is what I was referencing. If that isn't something that you value or can see, well that's telling.

I'll keep any other wanking to PMs. Back to the infos!
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Old 09-05-18, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by KYPREO View Post
To the OP, I don't think anyone has actually asked whether you will be tuning this yourself. It's all well and good to weigh up pros and cons of different ECUs and whether they have good user documentation etc, but the lack of a support manual is largely irrelevant if the person doing the tune knows their way around the product. While the advice in here is well-intentioned (and not necessarily wrong either!), what they might not appreciate is that in Sydney you have an endless source of tuners who can easily get you 500rwhp from a 13B from many different platforms. There are several well respected tuners in Sydney who know Adaptronic Modulars and will be able to tune them for you - it's actually where Adaptronic is based. I can think of 2 off the top of my head and I don't even live in NSW. That said, there are heaps of tuners who can do Haltech or Microtech for that matter. There will be certain features you get with different ECUs (eg Microtech can't do sequential twin turbos) but primarily the platform you use should be the one your tuner is familiar with and recommends.
More drama than Neighbours.

If he's still remotely interested, can't see a first time rotary owner doing this himself, unless he likes rebuilding engines as frequently as changing undies. There's probably less than 5 fingers worth of tuners in Sydney I'd trust with a track turbo rotary....and across both brands of ECU discussed here, less again. Hopefully the combined entity can rectify the shortcomings of both brands shortly.

As a sidebar, wouldn't expect 3 piece seals in a 2002 FD unless an old motor has been swapped in at some stage - not beyond a few local importers to do that I must say! My understanding at least speaking to a distributor here, the EFRs can be rebuilt.....probably a supercore wouldn't be that much more expensive than that option though. Typical single install here I'd guess would be well north of 10k Aud with supporting mods and ancillaries, if you're not fabricating it all yourself. There's been some representative costings provided over the years on the Aussie sites.
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Old 09-06-18, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by billyboy View Post
If he's still remotely interested, can't see a first time rotary owner doing this himself, unless he likes rebuilding engines as frequently as changing undies. There's probably less than 5 fingers worth of tuners in Sydney I'd trust with a track turbo rotary....and across both brands of ECU discussed here, less again. Hopefully the combined entity can rectify the shortcomings of both brands shortly.
If you go into it with no research, no self confidence and a tight pair of panties on you will likely fail and you may soil yourself in the process. The tuning process is not overly complicated and has been well well documented online and on these forums. Numerous individuals have laid out the process on here with enough detail that any individual capable of adding and subtracting can follow the logic and functionally tune a car. Just out of curiosity I'd like to know what exactly the Haltech shortcomings have been, and what your experience has been with the elite platform and ESP software. Hopefully you're one of the 5 and can enlighten us...

Originally Posted by billyboy View Post
As a sidebar, wouldn't expect 3 piece seals in a 2002 FD unless an old motor has been swapped in at some stage - not beyond a few local importers to do that I must say! My understanding at least speaking to a distributor here, the EFRs can be rebuilt.....probably a supercore wouldn't be that much more expensive than that option though. Typical single install here I'd guess would be well north of 10k Aud with supporting mods and ancillaries, if you're not fabricating it all yourself. There's been some representative costings provided over the years on the Aussie sites.
I missed the fact it was a 2002, which would imply it has the oem mazda 2 piece seals. Regardless, being it is 2018 if there is no verifiable record that the engine has been rebuilt you have to assume the rotating assembly and seal set is that old. Regardless of whether you run OMP, premix or both at the end of the day apex seals are wear parts and will ultimately on a long enough time frame will wear to the point of blow by and compression loss. While the apex seal springs are not necessarily wear parts they will lose their elastic force ultimately resulting again in blow by and compression loss. The less elastic force from the springs exerted on the seal and the more seal height that has been reduced from wear the more likely you are slip a seal out the slot and send it through the expensive turbine. All of that aside, it is known and proven that the oem mazda seals are much more likely to slip the slot and end up in your turbine wheel compared to the newer RXParts or E&J seals which may crack but will stay in the seal slot in the rotor.

I don't doubt that an EFR can be rebuilt, but at what cost? If you'd care to get a quote, I'd be interested to know what one of those fancy Gamma-Ti turbine wheels and shaft assemblies can be replaced for in a ball bearing CHRA. My point being is an EFR supercore isn't cheap and the very little you gain from all the risk you carry is marginal, at best.

Everything is possible if you put your mind to it and apply yourself, and planning ahead intelligently won't hurt your chances.

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Old 09-06-18, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeese
If you go into it with no research, no self confidence and a tight pair of panties on you will likely fail and you may soil yourself in the process. The tuning process is not overly complicated and has been well well documented online and on these forums. Numerous individuals have laid out the process on here with enough detail that any individual capable of adding and subtracting can follow the logic and functionally tune a car. Just out of curiosity I'd like to know what exactly the Haltech shortcomings have been, and what your experience has been with the elite platform and ESP software. Hopefully you're one of the 5 and can enlighten us...
Moi, no! Autotune and so forth over the last 15 or so years has no doubt made the process easier, but some bloke who says he's had no experience with a rotary doing it himself, tuning on the street subsequently exposing it to heat loads on a circuit, when accomplished tuners with decades of experience from typical reciprocating backgrounds won't go there sends a strong message. Even one of the official local Haltech reps who has made a reappearance on this forum recently, his workshop now turns away rotary work despite him tuning more of them than I've had hot dinners. Assuming again with no experience, Boz pays someone to port, machine and assemble this engine, for several thousands, at least he'd have a tiny chance of recompense in the engine builder v tuner blame game if something goes wrong. If he's tuning it himself, laughter down the phone line would be the only response.

There is the small matter of road tuning too, use of mobile devices while driving seems fairly relaxed over there in quite a few States, here it's pretty well frowned upon. A 5/600hp rotary with what sounds like a young guy at the wheel doing pulls would soon attract unwanted attention in this place, they had some poor bastard on the nightly news here in the last month caught during a phone blitz and he was getting the rough end of a pineapple inserted for tuning....you could probably get away with it in more remote locations, but that's several hours out of Sydney at least.



Originally Posted by Skeese
I missed the fact it was a 2002, which would imply it has the oem mazda 2 piece seals. Regardless, being it is 2018 if there is no verifiable record that the engine has been rebuilt you have to assume the rotating assembly and seal set is that old. Regardless of whether you run OMP, premix or both at the end of the day apex seals are wear parts and will ultimately on a long enough time frame will wear to the point of blow by and compression loss. While the apex seal springs are not necessarily wear parts they will lose their elastic force ultimately resulting again in blow by and compression loss. The less elastic force from the springs exerted on the seal and the more seal height that has been reduced from wear the more likely you are slip a seal out the slot and send it through the expensive turbine. All of that aside, it is known and proven that the oem mazda seals are much more likely to slip the slot and end up in your turbine wheel compared to the newer RXParts or E&J seals which may crack but will stay in the seal slot in the rotor.

I don't doubt that an EFR can be rebuilt, but at what cost? If you'd care to get a quote, I'd be interested to know what one of those fancy Gamma-Ti turbine wheels and shaft assemblies can be replaced for in a ball bearing CHRA. My point being is an EFR supercore isn't cheap and the very little you gain from all the risk you carry is marginal, at best.

Everything is possible if you put your mind to it and apply yourself, and planning ahead intelligently won't hurt your chances.

Skeese
Couldn't tell you the cost of a rebuild, you're probably better placed there with proximity to BW to find out....as said doubt there's a huge saving over the supercore. I do know Hypertune here have fixed one, but can't imagine they've been provided wheel assemblies from the factory.
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Old 09-06-18, 11:49 PM
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I thought I read that the efrís are not rebuildable. Hmm...
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Old 09-07-18, 12:29 AM
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Honestly if the engine pushes an apex seal through the turbo, replacing the EFR is the least of your worries. You're up for a complete rebuild with potentially at least 1 new housing and 1 new rotor, which in Australia these days is pushing around $8-12K. The cost of an EFR supercore is around A$2-2.5K last time I checked. Ball bearing turbos from other brands aren't necessarily rebuildable either and they're not far off in price. Looking at journal bearing turbos, the going rate in Australia to rebuild even a standard Hitachi s5 single turbo is around $750+, assuming both wheels are fine. Replace the turbine with a China copy wheel and you're looking at over $1K for the rebuild.

Long story short, having to replace the EFR will at worst leave you $1K worse off than other turbo options, which is the grand scheme of things is nothing where you're looking at a complete engine rebuild. If you're tossing up between an IWG EFR and a EWG something else, the likelihood of an EWG or 2 failing is actually far, far greater than a turbo failure, which makes up that difference in cost anyway.

IMHO given that EFRs have proven themselves very reliable in the field (apart from the very initial batch from years ago with the manufacturing flaw) and are unlikely to sustain damage unless through catastrophic engine failure (which I've never seen or heard of before anyway), the rebuildability should not even factor into it. If it suits your requirements, it's the turbo you want and it's within your budget - get it. Otherwise, don't.
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Old 09-07-18, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dguy View Post
Yes you do. And acting like a child manipulating capitalization to attack someone rather than be mature and civil when you represent a business is what I was referencing. If that isn't something that you value or can see, well that's telling.

I'll keep any other wanking to PMs. Back to the infos!
But I did not attack him lol. He attacked me and I simply told him that he shouldn't assume that I was the one posting...
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Old 09-07-18, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
But I did not attack him lol. He attacked me and I simply told him that he shouldn't assume that I was the one posting...

Are you a child?

Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
Simply put I never saw this thread until today so I wanted to make sure Mr ASSumption knew who he was talking to. Could care less if he can or cannot reply.

It's not much but I've definitely decided not to bring you my business moving forward.


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Old 09-08-18, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dguy View Post
Are you a child?




It's not much but I've definitely decided not to bring you my business moving forward.
Regardless that was going to be the outcome... I am going to continue to defend myself from someone who specifically attacks me.
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Old 09-08-18, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
Regardless that was going to be the outcome... I am going to continue to defend myself from someone who specifically attacks me.
Attack? Good lord come'on man don't be such a snowflake that was some very mild good ol'e fashion internet Joshin' right there, no need to fall apart over it...

Originally Posted by billyboy View Post
Moi, no! Autotune and so forth over the last 15 or so years has no doubt made the process easier, but some bloke who says he's had no experience with a rotary doing it himself, tuning on the street subsequently exposing it to heat loads on a circuit, when accomplished tuners with decades of experience from typical reciprocating backgrounds won't go there sends a strong message. Even one of the official local Haltech reps who has made a reappearance on this forum recently, his workshop now turns away rotary work despite him tuning more of them than I've had hot dinners. Assuming again with no experience, Boz pays someone to port, machine and assemble this engine, for several thousands, at least he'd have a tiny chance of recompense in the engine builder v tuner blame game if something goes wrong. If he's tuning it himself, laughter down the phone line would be the only response.

There is the small matter of road tuning too, use of mobile devices while driving seems fairly relaxed over there in quite a few States, here it's pretty well frowned upon. A 5/600hp rotary with what sounds like a young guy at the wheel doing pulls would soon attract unwanted attention in this place, they had some poor bastard on the nightly news here in the last month caught during a phone blitz and he was getting the rough end of a pineapple inserted for tuning....you could probably get away with it in more remote locations, but that's several hours out of Sydney at least.

Couldn't tell you the cost of a rebuild, you're probably better placed there with proximity to BW to find out....as said doubt there's a huge saving over the supercore. I do know Hypertune here have fixed one, but can't imagine they've been provided wheel assemblies from the factory.
I'm just saying it really isn't that hard and someone shouldn't be shunned away from doing so under the pretense that it is overly difficult. I'll gladly help anyone willing to learn, and I know multiple others on here who would do the same. No matter how much you pay someone or what their publicized credentials are, it is out of your control when you hand it off. I have seen SO many examples of crap tunes resulting in engine damage that were written by the "professionals" in the industry that it would blow your mind. I'm not starting a pissing match on here, but fact is fact man and I don't much trust anyone's ability other than mine at this point.

Originally Posted by silverTRD View Post
I thought I read that the efrís are not rebuildable. Hmm...
It was my understanding that they were not, and I made the ***-umption that if you were to have to rebuild one that it would likely come close to the supercore cost.

Originally Posted by KYPREO View Post
Honestly if the engine pushes an apex seal through the turbo, replacing the EFR is the least of your worries. You're up for a complete rebuild with potentially at least 1 new housing and 1 new rotor, which in Australia these days is pushing around $8-12K. The cost of an EFR supercore is around A$2-2.5K last time I checked. Ball bearing turbos from other brands aren't necessarily rebuildable either and they're not far off in price. Looking at journal bearing turbos, the going rate in Australia to rebuild even a standard Hitachi s5 single turbo is around $750+, assuming both wheels are fine. Replace the turbine with a China copy wheel and you're looking at over $1K for the rebuild.

Long story short, having to replace the EFR will at worst leave you $1K worse off than other turbo options, which is the grand scheme of things is nothing where you're looking at a complete engine rebuild. If you're tossing up between an IWG EFR and a EWG something else, the likelihood of an EWG or 2 failing is actually far, far greater than a turbo failure, which makes up that difference in cost anyway.

IMHO given that EFRs have proven themselves very reliable in the field (apart from the very initial batch from years ago with the manufacturing flaw) and are unlikely to sustain damage unless through catastrophic engine failure (which I've never seen or heard of before anyway), the rebuildability should not even factor into it. If it suits your requirements, it's the turbo you want and it's within your budget - get it. Otherwise, don't.
Good god man I didn't know engine rebuilds were so expensive there. That level of consequence coming from a rotary engine failure is no joke...I can't even imagine the cost of rebuilding one that required custom machining rework for extra dowels and custom porting. Can you clarify what you meant when you say you've never heard of catastrophic engine failure resulting in turbo damage? Were you replying to a rotary? I personally know of multiple cases where seals have been sent through turbine wheels trashing the wheel...I'll try and dig up some pictures, I know I have some. I think each case was at 25+ PSI if I remember correctly...

I just don't see why you would put all your eggs in an extremely expensive turbo with this platform. The manifold flow, wastegate setup, ability to change hot side housings as needed to suit your car's specific needs, and base of the setup being such that you can grow the turbo with your hp goals later seems paramount to a turbo kit that is designed has emphasis of 80% turbo and 20% manifold and gate where you have 0 flexibility in hot side housing that doesn't cost $1000 and run the risk of trashing the turbo along with your motor should the ever so reliable rotary engine let go at high hp.

At the end of the day, the 9180 is at MAX a 600hp turbo on a rotary and that will only have longevity should the supporting system be designed perfectly to suit the application. If you need to run a 1.45 housing to drive a 67mm higher than 600hp, you have just eliminated ANY spool ability you gained by it being an EFR by overcompensating for too small of a compressor with too large of a housing. If you are having to bypass that much exhaust flow past the wheel to keep the backpressure down enough to allow you to run more boost or further into the rpm range without dropping off, then the turbo is operating SO far out of its efficiency range trying to make up for the compressor so small that its just...dumb.

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Old 09-09-18, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
At the end of the day, the 9180 is at MAX a 600hp turbo on a rotary and that will only have longevity should the supporting system be designed perfectly to suit the application. If you need to run a 1.45 housing to drive a 67mm higher than 600hp, you have just eliminated ANY spool ability you gained by it being an EFR by overcompensating for too small of a compressor with too large of a housing. If you are having to bypass that much exhaust flow past the wheel to keep the backpressure down enough to allow you to run more boost or further into the rpm range without dropping off, then the turbo is operating SO far out of its efficiency range trying to make up for the compressor so small that its just...dumb.

Skeese

I dunno, (though this is a 3 rotor application) we're seeing some pretty promising numbers that will align well for the shorter tracks here in California using a 9180/1.45 AR. Yes, at this point we're seeing 700 to the crank per our dyno so I suppose using bro science we can say 600 horsepowerish to the wheels (still have to get it in the chassis and run it on a chassis dyno) but I think there's more to be had from it, I need to get a speed sensor on it before we do much more to it though.
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Old 09-09-18, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dguy View Post
I dunno, (though this is a 3 rotor application) we're seeing some pretty promising numbers that will align well for the shorter tracks here in California using a 9180/1.45 AR. Yes, at this point we're seeing 700 to the crank per our dyno so I suppose using bro science we can say 600 horsepowerish to the wheels (still have to get it in the chassis and run it on a chassis dyno) but I think there's more to be had from it, I need to get a speed sensor on it before we do much more to it though.
I think it being a 3 rotor skews the numbers for comparison. Not only do you make more hp per PSI of boost, but you have an additional rotor's worth of exhaust flow into the turbine and you'll most definitely need a very large housing to keep from building huge backpressure.
I would assume if you are making 700hp on a 3 rotor with the 67mm you're somewhere in the 22-26 lb if boost range?

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Old 09-09-18, 02:04 PM
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Yup, currently 21-22 with 26-27 being the goal.
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Old 09-09-18, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
Good god man I didn't know engine rebuilds were so expensive there. That level of consequence coming from a rotary engine failure is no joke...I can't even imagine the cost of rebuilding one that required custom machining rework for extra dowels and custom porting. Can you clarify what you meant when you say you've never heard of catastrophic engine failure resulting in turbo damage? Were you replying to a rotary? I personally know of multiple cases where seals have been sent through turbine wheels trashing the wheel...I'll try and dig up some pictures, I know I have some. I think each case was at 25+ PSI if I remember correctly...
Sorry, my post wasn't clear enough. I said "EFRs have proven themselves very reliable in the field (apart from the very initial batch from years ago with the manufacturing flaw) and are unlikely to sustain damage unless through catastrophic engine failure (which I've never seen or heard of before anyway)," What I meant here is not that I've never heard of turbines suffer damage due to apex seal failure. That is well documented. The "I've never seen or heard of before" is the unlikely to sustain damage through normal use. I could see them suffering damage if an apex seal flew through it. That said, the one instance of this happening I'm aware of engine fail with an EFR turbo was when BLUE TII's went with the 7670 - he initially thought it was damaged after being starved of oil, but ended up being fine: https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...1070794/page8/ Also interesting hearsay comment from Geoff from Full-Race there talking about EFRs continue to run fine even after sustaining turbine damage. This is consistent what I've seen and heard from owners of other turbos - seen a few myself that the owner believed were fine, then upon opening up there was physical damage to the turbine blades.

This doesn't invalidate anything you've said. It's something for the OP to take into account. But I reckon it's best to simply to talk about what is the best turbo for the given application. EFR9180 might not be it, but if it is, I don't reckon rebuildability or cost should factor into the equation. Most people in Australia with that power level are actually using GTX4294R, HKS T51R or T04Z. T51R and T04Z are hard to compare as they are obsolete turbos. But they still cost a bucketload 2nd hand / rebuilt and are vastly inferior turbos to the tech available now and won't touch them for response or boost threshold. The GTX4294R here is A$3,200 for the supercore (no turbine) and about A$3,800 built once you stack a turbine on. Like the EFR, this turbo is not rebuildable. By contrast EFR9180 EWG with the 1.45 turbine housing is $3,800 - exactly the same. These are Australian local retail prices. Both turbos are likely to be cheaper imported from the US with the deeper discounting over there. So, as I said, it should come down to which is the better turbo for the OP's application. I've haven't look into that closely to weigh in with an opinion on that question - I'm more familiar with the turbos around the 300-500rwhp power levels.

Last edited by KYPREO; 09-09-18 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 09-09-18, 08:17 PM
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Oh, I should add quite a few people here are using the BW SXE journal bearing turbos for the 500+rwhp setups too. Those are considerably cheaper - to the point where a brand new turbo is probably cheaper than the cost of rebuilding it if it ever failed.
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Old 09-11-18, 08:09 AM
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Thanks guys for all your inputs much appreciated ! Yes, Skeese has been really helpful along the way and helped me make the decision of going single first before anything. So thanks for that ! Will try my best to let you guys know of how i go with the setup.
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