Great update. Look forward to seeing future results. (even if that takes a few years, I'm very patient)

I hope your injector diffusers are removed completely in this new block !

 

"which Borg Warner turbo?"

BW 177283

BW data link: http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf/S300SX3-2.pdf


there are a few very interesting aspects

it is a mid range turbo having a 7 sq inch average compressor area.

the GT35 is 6.5
the GT42 is 8.3

1. unlike all other turbos in the 7.0 sq inch category (TO4Z, GT500 PT67) the BW has a 52 trim, significantly less than the others which are 63.

smaller trim (smaller inducer in relation to the exducer) favors spool. most need mid-range power as our engines are small displacement and our transmissions have wide gear spacing.


2. the 177283 is one of only two S300 series that offers the 1.00 A/R. ( PN 177209). combine the larger housing w the monster 6.31 sq inch ( a P trim is 5.8) turbine wheel and you have a turbo that likes to make power above 8500.

i logged modest back pressure above 20 psi as well as really nice egts. 1506 F at peak torque (6450) and 1579 F at 8500!


so we have a trim that favors early spool, a really large hot-side and enough compressor wheel to make... 550.

3. and the price is right. for instance: Area Diesel Service, Inc. Online Store - Performance

we made 514 SAE not anywhere near tuned out... our first run above 17 psi at 24 and i expect we will see 550 out of this turbo.

on the downside, the turbo weighs 22 pounds while a typical GT35 weighs 18 pounds and you can put it in your pocket.

many would be very happy w the GT35 and around 450+ hp. combine the GT35 compressor w a larger P trim rear and you have what i believe to be one of the most widely suited and cost effective turbos for the FD. that's why it is number 2 on our test list.

the other turbo in the group is the GT4094r. a very misunderstood turbo. the 4094 flows 93% of the GT4294 and is much smaller. my manifold, in an effort to place the turbine housing in the exact center of the engine and as close to the ports as possible, will not fit a 4294... due to 4294r bulk it has to be in front of the motor necessitating a longer runner and more bends. the 4094 fits alongside my motor yet packs almost the same power as the 42.

compact w a 600 hp punch.

there are major benefits locating the turbo back from the typical location... you can run a large air filter. my K&N is 9 inches long and 7 inches in diameter. less restriction. it is also located above the area that is open to the outside air. that's a plus given the average engine compartment air is 165 degrees. airbox in the near future. finally, if the preturbo AI fuel injector proves out my location delivers a straight shot into the compressor.

i really like all three...

howard

 

id like to see the injector fixtured between the filter and turbo. that sounds like a neat piece.

 

I'd be VERY careful where you locate that nozzle... If the cone of injectant is hitting the filter element than you may greatly reduce the likelihood that you'll have consistent AI flow between when your car is on the dyno, and actually on the street.

I wouldn't be surprised if my pre-turbo nozzle location was a contributing factor in my last ("brand new" rebuilt) engine going pop (that being the straw that broke the camels back, on top of SHITTY porting, worn housings, trashed irons, etc., etc., etc...).

Because lets be honest, nobody wants to see you pop ANOTHER engine before making measurable progress. Just something to consider..

 

So both engines failed due to a fuel diffuser going through the engines? I thought the build with ALS seals was the one that the diffuser went through? That is what happened with the second failure as well?

I am one of the few who believes a diffuser can cause an engine failure, actually seen it happen. Happened on an engine with ALS seals and on the side of the engine it went through it basically melted and smeared all over the housing and caused the apex seals to get stuck in place.

It is just hard to believe it happened two engines in a row.

What seals did you go this time, if this has been covered I apologize.

 

My WI placement in the air filter to spray directly into the compressor from the front of the long filter.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachments/...-filter-1s-jpg

https://www.rx7club.com/attachments/...-filter-2s-jpg

 

Levi, I'm all for you being helpful and sharing your rotary knowledge with the rest of us less-learned peons floating around, but do me a favor and do it without being obnoxious. I don't delete your posts, but if you can't show a little basic respect to others on this forum that's what is going to happen.

Re: the injector diffusers, I have seen three cases now where they have failed and trashed engines. All three cars were running standard bolt-on twin turbo setups, nothing crazy. These failures were due from the age of the plastic diffusers and led to cars that basically shut down while cruising down the road off boost and wouldn't fire back up...... in each case one rotor lost all three apex seals and had zero compression on that rotor.

 

Sorry Rich, it's hard to keep all traces of sarcasm at bay considering the history of mis-information, censorship, and blatant abuse of power in this thread.

In no way do I consider myself an expert, a builder, or a tuner. I've never claimed to be, nor am I likely to claim any of those titles in the near future. I'll openly admit my skills, or lack thereof.

Any advise or suggestions I offer are simply based off my own mishaps, or mistakes and ****-ups I've personally paid for "professionals" to make.

 

Hey Rich, do us all a favor. DELETE ALL THE B.S. IN THIS THREAD. leave only the technical stuff in.

 

caveat... not one of these pics is the finished product but i hope they will be of some help.

"I'd like to see the injector fixtured between the filter and turbo."

here are a couple of pics re my preturbo AI fuel injector fixture... unfortunately neither shows the finished product. the first picture is before we did the aero mods to the unit. the large black plastic fitting for the two wires into the injector is gone and the wires are snug against the injector body. the wires are also snug against the fuel delivery tube.

"If the cone of injectant is hitting the filter element..."

the assembly fits perfectly into the engine end of the filter and as such is downstream from the filter element so no issues as to a clogged filter...




the entire AI system is dash 3. no plastic push-on fittings when you are betting the motor. not quite hooked up in this picture but it will give you the idea. i do love the layout.

a big airfilter which will eventually be surrounded by an outside air box ala Barry B. a straight shot into the compressor. a very very short straight shot to the intercooler. i guess i like straight and short.



i am expecting these four IGN 1A coils to light a very dense mixture infused w water. being able to control dwell will be a help. Lance (Pantera EFI 101) tells me they will do the job. we will see if inductive can cut it...



i found an excellent spot for the coils. cool, short wires and they don't block getting at the plugs. you can also see my FullFunctionEng crank wheel and Hall pickup as well as the FFE fuel rails. all the FFE items fit beautifully and work perfectly. note also what i consider to be the proper location for my Greddy R BOV. being on a flat surface, it doesn't disturb the flow from the IC to the elbow.



here's a better view of the straight short shot into the IC. you will also note my K thermocouple that logs post turbo, pre-intercooler temperature. another twin thermocouple resides in the stock IAT location under the UIM. two other key items: a digital fuel pressure logger/sensor at my fuel pressure regulator. logging fuel pressure is essential on any modded FD and you can just see my MICA heat-shield which keeps the LIM stone cold even though it is only 1/8th of an inch thick. pure magic/mica.



one of the many features of the V88 is a very sophisticated internal knock system. i chose to upgrade to the later model Bosch RX8 knock sensors. my go to engine guy says knock sensors are a waste of time.... by the time you get the knock your engine is toast. of course he is looking at it from his vantage point which is over 1000 rwhp. given his position i agree. i, however, highly value knock as a tuning aid and believe you can sneak up on your tune by monitoring knock.

the Power FC w the stock knock sensor works very well.




"So both engines failed due to a fuel diffuser going through the engines?"

yes.

while diffusers were the cause i am not 100% sure in the first case what caused the diffuser to fail. in the second instance, jan 2012, i am pretty sure that too much meth caused a backfire into the uim which caused the diffuser to fail.

in the first instance, the motor sort of didn't blow up... it just didn't make much power and turned out to be down on compression.

no piece in the motor needed to be replaced, but the diffuser plastic needed to be cleaned off various internal pieces.

in the second instance, the diffuser broke the ceramic apex seal... or possibly the backfire/pre-ignition did the job on the seal... just about everything on the motor was ruined in both the front and rear housings.

i am running the same steel (ALS) seals that were in the motor that had the diffuser failure. after the plastic was removed i examined them closely and they were as good as new.

howard

 

I have a 168241 T4 1.00 A/R divided housing on my S363

 

BW lists 6 S300 turbos on their site. three are listed to accept the 177209 1.0 housing.

i am just using info from BW... of course aftermarket vendors create additional options. i couldn't find anything w 168241 on it and would be interested to learn about your source.

how does your turbo run?

howard

 

Howard I have a john deer borg warner rear from BW central here in Greece. my rear exducer major is 88.5 and the minor is 76mm approximately. I don't know as it hasn't been tuned for boost.

 

I wish had taken some pictures when I disassembled the turbo

Pic 1-my current setup
Pic2-front view with CAT housing
pic3-CAT high flow housing
pic4-standard BW housing, you can see the 1.00 stamped on the exhaust

 

As you can see he has all kinds of housings...

 

Sorry about the wrong measurements- my compressor is 63mm(minor), 88.5mm(major) and the turbine is 76mm(minor) and I don't remember the major.

 

 

since the thread resurfaced it is worth an update.

Luke has finished the overall setup on my Vi-PEC V88 so i buzzed up to Beyond Redline a week ago friday. i have never experienced how nice the car idled. since my ports have an additional 20 degrees overlap i always figured i would be stuck w an idle around 1100. the car idles at 890. like a pussycat. Luke credited the induction ignition V a CDI but i am sure a lot of it lies w his tuning expertise.

we spent the better part of the day on the rollers. 26 total pulls, probably a few just doing some intermediate tuning but most from 2000 to 8650. it was the first time the car with the new setup had to work for a living.

all runs were off the spring w the boost control off. about 15 psi. the executive summary is we made the same hp as we did Jan 16, 2012. we really weren't trying to optimize the power, rather we were checking systems etc.

these were my first (ever) runs w water. i have always run 100% meth. we are 50/50 W-M.

as you may recall my AI setup is run by the V88. it can run 8 injectors. so 4 are for base fuel and two are being used for AI. unlike base fuel the AI injectors fire once per crank rev.
i have two... one pre-turbo and one in the elbow.

we had both firing on all runs. as a matter of fact they were really firing as we had the elbow injector at 11 mS. since it takes the engine 11 mS to rotate at 5100 rpm our elbow injector was at 100% duty cycle from 5100 on. the preturbo was set at a lower on-time but it was at running about half duty.

bottom line is we had over 2500 CC of water meth into the motor above 5100. i am surprised the motor didn't drown.

we did have a couple of runs where Luke thought the spark was blown out. he leaned it out a touch and we had no further ignition issues.

we weren't focused on the AI other than to make sure both injectors were working properly.

given the amount of AI into the motor i am not surprised our ignition said hello.

we will be receiving a Vi-PEC Knock Amplifier Kit sometime next week. a number of people find the headphones very helpful as to monitoring knock. since we are able to exactly direct on any part of the map the AI delivery we need to be able to be ahead of the curve on knock so we can end up at the right setting.

i expect to be back on the dyno March 4 or 5th after we receive the knock setup.

the plan is to spend a whole day tuning off the spring... get our base set and then raise the boost and find out just what we can get out of the Borg Warner.

here's a snippet of some of our data:



off the spring at 15 PSI...

i now have the setup that is capable of giving me the data i want and then working the tune. it is going to answer lot of questions.

top plot is RPM.
second plot is boost off the spring
third plot is the duty cycle of the AI injectors. one is pre turbo, one is in the elbow
fourth plot is IAT measured between the turbo and intercooler and in the OE location

ECU is the Vi-PEC V88. it can run 8 fuel injectors. of course it is running 4 for the base fuel and two which are AI. the AI injectors fire once every crank revolution.

the cursor is at 7838 RPM which is the point where the IAT finally exceeds ambient. i am running a 50/50 water meth combo.

the IAT coming directly from the turbo is 237 F
the IAT at the stock location is 93 F

prior to the run at - 7 psi 2716 RPM

IAT after turbo pre-IC was 138
IAT at elbow location was 88

max temps at 8534 RPM

262 F out of turbo
106 elbow location

IAT are measured w an EGT thermocouple and, as such, are literally instantaneous and accurate to a degree or two.

the motor duplicated my Jan 2012 power output of 394 at 15 psi. this amazes me because we were hugely richer at average AFR of 10.9 and had 5 degrees less timing in the motor.

the big difference was last year was 100% methanol.... no water.

well, maybe that wasn't the biggest factor. it seems we were a bit off on setting AI delivery.

if you can see the details you will note that the pre turbo injector was at 52.6% injector duty and the elbow location was at 151.5%!

of course anything higher than 100% is just a nominal calculation. the injector was set at 11 mS, fires once a revolution which takes 7.65 mS. 11/7.65 gets you to approx 1.5.

we were at 100% duty w the elbow AI injector from 5100 RPM and up...
the pre turbo location had been dialed back V the elbow located injector.

(we were primarily just testing to see that they worked)

total AI at 5219 RPM was 2143 CC/Min... yikes

total AI at 8644 RPM was 2509 CC/Min

i find it humorous that one of the primary reasons for my setup was to accurately control the delivery of AI at all points on the map and our first outing was probably further off the mark than i have ever experienced.

we were focusing on other things and overall the engine ran well. i have a Vi-PEC Knock Amplifier Kit on the way (headphones to determine knock) and will be back on the dyno as soon as it arrives.... probably March 4/5.

we will then be able to focus on trimming the AI table properly and assessing pre-turbo V post turbo AI.

this info hopefully will be of help to all.

howard

 

Nice, thanks for the update Howard!

 

Thanks for posting up your results for everyone!

the motor duplicated my Jan 2012 power output of 394 at 15 psi. this amazes me because we were hugely richer at average AFR of 10.9 and had 5 degrees less timing in the motor

On my build once I had ignition covered leaning out the mixture from 10s did not gain power. I am interested to see if you will have similar results.

 

Glad you've made some good progress. Looking forward to further results. Best of luck.

 

i expect to be back on the dyno March 4 or 5th after we receive the knock setup.

Good luck with that. I have 20 inches of snow here in MN.

Ken

 

Have you hit the dyno again yet?

 

i will be back on the dyno March 19 or 20. i am waiting on a couple of items.

 

wait. didnt i just see you there not long ago? i think i saw you having an fd tuned. milwaukee i think?