separating fiction from reality... a couple of days on the DYNO
10-26-12, 09:18 AM
#976
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
I think I'll have my 20b setting track records before a couple of days on the dyno happens here. And its currently sitting in pieces, I still have to button it up too lol.
I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume Howard is regretting switching ECU's and trying to reinvent the wheel over and over when it has already been perfected.
thewird
I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume Howard is regretting switching ECU's and trying to reinvent the wheel over and over when it has already been perfected.
thewird
11-02-12, 07:27 AM
#983
talking head
all those complaining and non contributing trolls have a lounge thread to post in..
those interested in seeing hi end electronics and logging and a tasty selection of turbos and the lengthy journey that can be continue to wait patiently in the hope that the troll posts don't discourage howard from continuing to update
those interested in seeing hi end electronics and logging and a tasty selection of turbos and the lengthy journey that can be continue to wait patiently in the hope that the troll posts don't discourage howard from continuing to update
11-02-12, 09:31 AM
#984
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
Except that many of those "non contributing trolls" have been able to build, and tune, their own cars without repeatedly blowing engines and making (up) excuses for why they can't keep a rotary together for more than one tuning session.
I'm personally sensitive about "builders" who charge premium prices and produce crap engines after paying for two rebuilds in 4,000 miles...
If a "specialist" is unable to keep their showcase vehicle running (for years on end) than perhaps they shouldn't be passing on their knowledge anyway....
I'm personally sensitive about "builders" who charge premium prices and produce crap engines after paying for two rebuilds in 4,000 miles...
If a "specialist" is unable to keep their showcase vehicle running (for years on end) than perhaps they shouldn't be passing on their knowledge anyway....
11-02-12, 10:19 AM
#986
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
It was somebody else that had a good reputation for building high hp engines. I'm doing my current build (this weekend) out of my garage with an engine builder from Speed1. Honestly you'd probably be tickled in the pickle to see what's going into it 
Whether he built my broken engines or not is irrelevant, he built his own broken engines. Unless he has somebody else building his motors... Howard is a nice guy, don't get me wrong, I just disagree with ANYBODY being put onto a pedestal as a super-builder when their products can't stand up to a peer review, and any criticism is censored.
Whether he built my broken engines or not is irrelevant, he built his own broken engines. Unless he has somebody else building his motors... Howard is a nice guy, don't get me wrong, I just disagree with ANYBODY being put onto a pedestal as a super-builder when their products can't stand up to a peer review, and any criticism is censored.
11-03-12, 05:58 AM
#988
RX 4BPT
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Where are the extensive information full threads from the guys on here slating Howard? As they rekon they've done it all and this and that, all the info posted on here helps others understand what they're looking at, I still don't know what all the different graphs and **** are but I know a damn site more than when I fisrt started reading this thread.....albeit a long time ago.
11-06-12, 08:21 PM
#989
FC3S
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: I come from a land downunder
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Once upon a time I would come to this site and there were certain users that actually knew what they were talking about and were actually very helpful. Then one day they all disappeared. Due to threads like this where pointing out that a forum vendor or moderator are actually wrong, the useful information gets deleted and the incorrect crap remains, usually with a ban or warning. They have actually all gone to another website that your not allowed to link here due to 7club rules. It's not about helping the community it's about making money. If your reading this post your probably very lucky, it won't take long for it to get deleted, possibly resulting in a ban for me. Which just proves my point.
11-06-12, 08:28 PM
#990
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
I wouldn't say they all disappeared..... many have moved on, but not all 
And your post won't be deleted. Banning is something I try and reserve for scammers, thieves, and the like.
And your post won't be deleted. Banning is something I try and reserve for scammers, thieves, and the like.
11-06-12, 10:14 PM
#992
Eye In The Sky
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We all need to sit back; drink a "Pliny the Elder" or a "Sorachi Ace", take a hit,
and become one with the Mazda God!
OH - I forgot, only us older guys do these things.
and become one with the Mazda God!
OH - I forgot, only us older guys do these things.
11-07-12, 12:20 AM
#993
I am still grateful for any information Howard puts up on here. Regardless of if you think he is reinventing the wheel or not, he is putting in a great deal of work and it is work that we can learn things from. I just hope everything is going well for him having been such a long time since he has been on here. I would be really disappointed if he finally got tired of the junk around here and decided not to share any of his work with the rest of us. Howard, where ever you are, many of us still look forward to your posts.
12-06-12, 12:20 PM
#998
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
update:
yesterday my car made it's 100 mile trip back to Beyond Redline. i am fortunate that winter has again decided to make a late entry to Wisconsin as the new motor had an opportunity to log (literally) a few hundred mile before going on the rollers.
while i elected to step away from the thread until i actually had my setup running i have been busy w the build pretty much every day since Jan 16 when a diffuser ended (temporarily) the turbo project.
as i look back on my build decisions over the year i have no regrets as to any of them. i am getting up in years and time is not unlimited for any of us and i decided that i wanted to build my FD my way. unfortunately that threw a major wrench into getting the turbo project accomplished timewise.
oh well.
i now have what i really wanted out of the FD which is a latent supercar. i also realize that i could have probably 90% of what i wanted without trying to re-invent the wheel.
but what kind of fun would that be. of course there are no guarantees that my construction will work or will work better. i will just have to see but that is part of the intrigue.
i do seriously apologize to all for taking a project thread and turning it into a build thread. it was not anticipated and probably happened all because of an injector diffuser.
for those interested and w long enough memories i had a diffuser go through my motor at 7360 rpm which trashed a set of ceramic seals and the motor. i believe the reason for the event was a backfire into the UIM (registered as a boost spike... only one data point) from running too much methanol as AI injectant.
a Honda research paper states that at a certain level of meth/gasoline "chemical" instability may occur causing... see above.
i have run 100% meth as injectant since 2004 and for 5 years and 100s of dyno pulls have never had any problem whatsoever. as the years progressed i raised the amount.
the Jan 16 run featured two 1000 CC/Min fuel injectors running at 115 psi rail pressure. about 30% of the total BTU content was meth.
things were fine off the spring, and at 17 psi, but when we got to 24 psi (two runs) we had a misfire at 7659 and and the last run at 7360 which took out the diffuser.
i suppose we found the spot of "chemical" imbalance.
back in 04 when i first started doing AI there was a lot of discussion as to whether water or meth was the ticket. the "discussions" turned into the typical internet wars and it sort of became the ranchers V the sheep herders. i went w meth but i always took the view that water was a fair option. i started the Auxiliary Injection section and encouraged all POV.
what interests me looking back to 04 where you had the two camps was that, without a doubt in my mind, that the combination of water and meth appears to be significantly superior to running either water or meth.
so, for the first time, that's what's in my tank. it will be exciting to tune out with something new.
when all else fails, pragmatism rules...
as many recall RiceRacing was the most effective proponent of 100% water. he also was one of the first, if not the first, to deliver preturbo AI.
the preturbo location does seem to work. Tom, on our board, had some good preliminary results.
about a year and a half ago Rice (let's call him Peter) was running very well around 20 psi w water and decided to add meth. (heresy). i believe he did 50/50 based on weight... which if i am correct on all this favored water just a bit....
reading from Peter's posts on another board he was able to go from 20 to 30+PSI!
can you imagine what a properly setup FD would be like at 30 psi? i believe he ran his setup around 30+ psi for a year and a half, did a comp check, and had really good numbers.
wow.
so put this concept together w my dead end w too much meth being an engine killer and i am there. less problems w flammability, sanctioning bodies, handling etc. i am running 50% distilled (always) water and meth on a 50/50 basis based on volume, not weight. simple-r.
and i really like the pre-turbo concept.
what aspect defines the right (limit) side of a compressor map?
heat.
there is a point where the heat of compression inside the compressor stops further flow.
inject preturbo and cool the process and create the condition for more compression/output.
that's the theory.
what's the reality?
to that end i have collaborated w Joe Serrano (R 1 on the board) who designed a really nice fuel injector fixture that positions the EV 14 between my air filter and the compressor. i have another fuel injector positioned on my Greddy elbow.
both injectors are the new style Bosch EV14 peak and hold 1000 cc/min. the injector in front of the turbo has 6 laser drilled delivery holes for increased atomisation. both injectors will run at 115 psi so they will be capable of delivering 1590 CC/min. (i don't necessarily expect to run them full blast but they do have the capability)
the need to properly control 6 Peak and Hold injectors was one of the many reasons i elected the ViPEC V88.
the plan is to tune out the motor running the one elbow located AI injector, then turn it off and tune out the motor using the preturbo setup.
while others have run preturbo AI, no one, to my knowledge, has tested a setup that actually allows accurate control of injectant delivery... in all 220 cells.
i have seen estimates from fairly lucid people that perhaps as much as a 10% flow increase might be achieved w the proper delivery of AI into a turbo.
maybe yes maybe no. i hope to answer the question.
the preturbo injector location led me to change out the IAT setup. i have always been frustrated my looking at my IAT Mapwatch readouts from my Power FC.
27 degrees C all w the way from 2000 to 8650 on a 4th gear dyno pull?
BS.
Type K thermocouples are accurate within less than 5 degrees and 5 Ms. i see this when i look at events and my EGT readings. instantaneous.
after discussing my needs w Rick at Exhaust Gas Technologies, i received a set that will work after being exposed to water meth. EGT offers a number of tips. mine are the Stinger Series which are the fastest.
my ECU will now receive accurate dynamic IAT. the second reason for the switch is i wanted to know the IAT immediately exiting the turbo compressor. i believe it is around 300 F at higher boost.
when we hit the turbo w water meth i would like to be able to measure the result.
just buzzing around the neighborhood (out in the country) i ran 6 psi.... here's a slice of the log w the intake air measured out of the turbo before the intercooler and a measurement at the stock IAT location under the UIM.
while the peak boost was 6.2 psi there are already some interesting metrics.
first off, the peak post-turbo temp (182 F) was set after the throttle was closed. boost was minus 11.4 PSI. rpm 4568. IAT to the engine was 72 so the IC removed 110 degrees...
peak boost was 6.2 psi and at that moment the IAT from the turbo was 167 and the temp into the engine was 66 F.
i believe the reason for the higher temp after the peak boost was the throttle plate closed causing a momentary backup and additional peak heat.
of course the information will become more interesting when we raise the boost and get into preturbo WM injection.
according to Peter, once you have a proper overall setup the primary limiting factor is ignition. raising the boost, while using very conservative timing and AFRs, requires alot of WM. eventually you get to a point where you are injecting so much it becomes close to impossible to fire the mix. that's of course, where ignition becomes a key factor.
many setups have reached their limit simply because ignition called the tune.
here, just like the water V meth controversy, we have a couple of paths:
inductive V CDI.
there are very strong arguments on both sides. i elected CDI and ran a very strong system since 04. no problem firing cleanly in the 9 AFR range. Peter is a strong (and strong would be an understatement) proponent of CDI.
i switched to inductive. i run four IGN-1A coils. if they work it would certainly simplify the ignition setup. they have worked on some hellacious drag cars.
the ViPEC V88 has an X Y grid (load and rpm) that allows coil dwell to be adjusted. run modest dwell around town and lots of dwell under higher boost. in addition to being able to better exploit the coil a significant advatange is gained as you are much much less likely to fry your $35 spark plugs.
if my inductive setup reaches an early limit i will simply swap in the CDI friendly IGN 1A coils and a CDI box.
another area of exploration is my manifold. i ran a self designed twin Garrett TO4 setup from 04 to 09. two 3 inch downpipes etc. it worked fairly well, making just over 500 rw at 20 psi.
w the advances in turbos i decided to design a single manifold and really like what i came up w. i ran option one on Jan 16th. with only two (20+ ) pulls on the dyno it did well generating 380 rwhp at 5500 (my 5500 rpm target is 400) and peak torque at 6450 (right on my target), a bit over 500 peak and was happy to rev to 8650 while making good hp at that rpm.
i constructed option two as a follow on to compare crossectional area effect. option two is slightly more balanced w re to bends and has 64% more interior runner area. less velocity, more flow, less drag.
i will be very interested comparing my two manifolds.
FullFunctionEng has recently created what i consider best in class items for the FD and i enthusiastically run their 36 tooth crank wheel along w their Hall pickup. also on board is a complete set of their fuel rails.
in the Wideband dept i think my research uncovered a hidden gem. Bosch has recently come out w a significantly different air fuel sensor, the LS 4.9. one of the attractive aspects of the sensor is it does not re-calibrate using free air which is always a major pain. further, the vendor, Accurate Lambda Systems, uses the actual Bosch control chip.
finally there is the heart of my setup, the ViPEC V88. on paper it seems to do it all. you pretty much can adjust anything and slice and dice it whichever way you wish.
i could go on for hours on it but the post is way too long and i have something in the ECU section which will go over the details. now that i am up and running i can say that it actually performs as advertised. no disappointments here. i am very happy w my decision.
so that's what i have...
looking forward w re to the turbos and their evaluation. i have 3. the BW is first up, then the GT3574 or as it is offered by Turblown the TD61 and my GT4094r.
ace turner Luke Stubbs and i spent over 2 hours yesterday getting to know the ViPEC program and the various systems on my car. he was very impressed w the V88. i believe that the combo of a really gifted tuner and a really high potential platform (V88) may result in something special. (note there is a "may" in there)
Luke will spend a fair amount of time doing an overall global tune. there are a couple of small hardware items that need to be installed and then we will move to doing the power thing.
i don't know of many guarantees in life and certainly this thread hasn't proceeded proforma with the loss of an engine and a build thread interceding but i can tell you i am as motivated to do the turbo comparison now as when i started the thread.
howard
yesterday my car made it's 100 mile trip back to Beyond Redline. i am fortunate that winter has again decided to make a late entry to Wisconsin as the new motor had an opportunity to log (literally) a few hundred mile before going on the rollers.
while i elected to step away from the thread until i actually had my setup running i have been busy w the build pretty much every day since Jan 16 when a diffuser ended (temporarily) the turbo project.
as i look back on my build decisions over the year i have no regrets as to any of them. i am getting up in years and time is not unlimited for any of us and i decided that i wanted to build my FD my way. unfortunately that threw a major wrench into getting the turbo project accomplished timewise.
oh well.
i now have what i really wanted out of the FD which is a latent supercar. i also realize that i could have probably 90% of what i wanted without trying to re-invent the wheel.
but what kind of fun would that be. of course there are no guarantees that my construction will work or will work better. i will just have to see but that is part of the intrigue.
i do seriously apologize to all for taking a project thread and turning it into a build thread. it was not anticipated and probably happened all because of an injector diffuser.
for those interested and w long enough memories i had a diffuser go through my motor at 7360 rpm which trashed a set of ceramic seals and the motor. i believe the reason for the event was a backfire into the UIM (registered as a boost spike... only one data point) from running too much methanol as AI injectant.
a Honda research paper states that at a certain level of meth/gasoline "chemical" instability may occur causing... see above.
i have run 100% meth as injectant since 2004 and for 5 years and 100s of dyno pulls have never had any problem whatsoever. as the years progressed i raised the amount.
the Jan 16 run featured two 1000 CC/Min fuel injectors running at 115 psi rail pressure. about 30% of the total BTU content was meth.
things were fine off the spring, and at 17 psi, but when we got to 24 psi (two runs) we had a misfire at 7659 and and the last run at 7360 which took out the diffuser.
i suppose we found the spot of "chemical" imbalance.
back in 04 when i first started doing AI there was a lot of discussion as to whether water or meth was the ticket. the "discussions" turned into the typical internet wars and it sort of became the ranchers V the sheep herders. i went w meth but i always took the view that water was a fair option. i started the Auxiliary Injection section and encouraged all POV.
what interests me looking back to 04 where you had the two camps was that, without a doubt in my mind, that the combination of water and meth appears to be significantly superior to running either water or meth.
so, for the first time, that's what's in my tank. it will be exciting to tune out with something new.
when all else fails, pragmatism rules...
as many recall RiceRacing was the most effective proponent of 100% water. he also was one of the first, if not the first, to deliver preturbo AI.
the preturbo location does seem to work. Tom, on our board, had some good preliminary results.
about a year and a half ago Rice (let's call him Peter) was running very well around 20 psi w water and decided to add meth. (heresy). i believe he did 50/50 based on weight... which if i am correct on all this favored water just a bit....
reading from Peter's posts on another board he was able to go from 20 to 30+PSI!
can you imagine what a properly setup FD would be like at 30 psi? i believe he ran his setup around 30+ psi for a year and a half, did a comp check, and had really good numbers.
wow.
so put this concept together w my dead end w too much meth being an engine killer and i am there. less problems w flammability, sanctioning bodies, handling etc. i am running 50% distilled (always) water and meth on a 50/50 basis based on volume, not weight. simple-r.
and i really like the pre-turbo concept.
what aspect defines the right (limit) side of a compressor map?
heat.
there is a point where the heat of compression inside the compressor stops further flow.
inject preturbo and cool the process and create the condition for more compression/output.
that's the theory.
what's the reality?
to that end i have collaborated w Joe Serrano (R 1 on the board) who designed a really nice fuel injector fixture that positions the EV 14 between my air filter and the compressor. i have another fuel injector positioned on my Greddy elbow.
both injectors are the new style Bosch EV14 peak and hold 1000 cc/min. the injector in front of the turbo has 6 laser drilled delivery holes for increased atomisation. both injectors will run at 115 psi so they will be capable of delivering 1590 CC/min. (i don't necessarily expect to run them full blast but they do have the capability)
the need to properly control 6 Peak and Hold injectors was one of the many reasons i elected the ViPEC V88.
the plan is to tune out the motor running the one elbow located AI injector, then turn it off and tune out the motor using the preturbo setup.
while others have run preturbo AI, no one, to my knowledge, has tested a setup that actually allows accurate control of injectant delivery... in all 220 cells.
i have seen estimates from fairly lucid people that perhaps as much as a 10% flow increase might be achieved w the proper delivery of AI into a turbo.
maybe yes maybe no. i hope to answer the question.
the preturbo injector location led me to change out the IAT setup. i have always been frustrated my looking at my IAT Mapwatch readouts from my Power FC.
27 degrees C all w the way from 2000 to 8650 on a 4th gear dyno pull?
BS.
Type K thermocouples are accurate within less than 5 degrees and 5 Ms. i see this when i look at events and my EGT readings. instantaneous.
after discussing my needs w Rick at Exhaust Gas Technologies, i received a set that will work after being exposed to water meth. EGT offers a number of tips. mine are the Stinger Series which are the fastest.
my ECU will now receive accurate dynamic IAT. the second reason for the switch is i wanted to know the IAT immediately exiting the turbo compressor. i believe it is around 300 F at higher boost.
when we hit the turbo w water meth i would like to be able to measure the result.
just buzzing around the neighborhood (out in the country) i ran 6 psi.... here's a slice of the log w the intake air measured out of the turbo before the intercooler and a measurement at the stock IAT location under the UIM.
while the peak boost was 6.2 psi there are already some interesting metrics.
first off, the peak post-turbo temp (182 F) was set after the throttle was closed. boost was minus 11.4 PSI. rpm 4568. IAT to the engine was 72 so the IC removed 110 degrees...
peak boost was 6.2 psi and at that moment the IAT from the turbo was 167 and the temp into the engine was 66 F.
i believe the reason for the higher temp after the peak boost was the throttle plate closed causing a momentary backup and additional peak heat.
of course the information will become more interesting when we raise the boost and get into preturbo WM injection.
according to Peter, once you have a proper overall setup the primary limiting factor is ignition. raising the boost, while using very conservative timing and AFRs, requires alot of WM. eventually you get to a point where you are injecting so much it becomes close to impossible to fire the mix. that's of course, where ignition becomes a key factor.
many setups have reached their limit simply because ignition called the tune.
here, just like the water V meth controversy, we have a couple of paths:
inductive V CDI.
there are very strong arguments on both sides. i elected CDI and ran a very strong system since 04. no problem firing cleanly in the 9 AFR range. Peter is a strong (and strong would be an understatement) proponent of CDI.
i switched to inductive. i run four IGN-1A coils. if they work it would certainly simplify the ignition setup. they have worked on some hellacious drag cars.
the ViPEC V88 has an X Y grid (load and rpm) that allows coil dwell to be adjusted. run modest dwell around town and lots of dwell under higher boost. in addition to being able to better exploit the coil a significant advatange is gained as you are much much less likely to fry your $35 spark plugs.
if my inductive setup reaches an early limit i will simply swap in the CDI friendly IGN 1A coils and a CDI box.
another area of exploration is my manifold. i ran a self designed twin Garrett TO4 setup from 04 to 09. two 3 inch downpipes etc. it worked fairly well, making just over 500 rw at 20 psi.
w the advances in turbos i decided to design a single manifold and really like what i came up w. i ran option one on Jan 16th. with only two (20+ ) pulls on the dyno it did well generating 380 rwhp at 5500 (my 5500 rpm target is 400) and peak torque at 6450 (right on my target), a bit over 500 peak and was happy to rev to 8650 while making good hp at that rpm.
i constructed option two as a follow on to compare crossectional area effect. option two is slightly more balanced w re to bends and has 64% more interior runner area. less velocity, more flow, less drag.
i will be very interested comparing my two manifolds.
FullFunctionEng has recently created what i consider best in class items for the FD and i enthusiastically run their 36 tooth crank wheel along w their Hall pickup. also on board is a complete set of their fuel rails.
in the Wideband dept i think my research uncovered a hidden gem. Bosch has recently come out w a significantly different air fuel sensor, the LS 4.9. one of the attractive aspects of the sensor is it does not re-calibrate using free air which is always a major pain. further, the vendor, Accurate Lambda Systems, uses the actual Bosch control chip.
finally there is the heart of my setup, the ViPEC V88. on paper it seems to do it all. you pretty much can adjust anything and slice and dice it whichever way you wish.
i could go on for hours on it but the post is way too long and i have something in the ECU section which will go over the details. now that i am up and running i can say that it actually performs as advertised. no disappointments here. i am very happy w my decision.
so that's what i have...
looking forward w re to the turbos and their evaluation. i have 3. the BW is first up, then the GT3574 or as it is offered by Turblown the TD61 and my GT4094r.
ace turner Luke Stubbs and i spent over 2 hours yesterday getting to know the ViPEC program and the various systems on my car. he was very impressed w the V88. i believe that the combo of a really gifted tuner and a really high potential platform (V88) may result in something special. (note there is a "may" in there)
Luke will spend a fair amount of time doing an overall global tune. there are a couple of small hardware items that need to be installed and then we will move to doing the power thing.
i don't know of many guarantees in life and certainly this thread hasn't proceeded proforma with the loss of an engine and a build thread interceding but i can tell you i am as motivated to do the turbo comparison now as when i started the thread.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 12-06-12 at 07:48 PM.
