Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am pleased that i finally had the opportunity to take a step forward w the turbo comparison project. while the day ended after 27 dyno pulls w some sort of engine problem we were able to generate a lot of data and start, not finish, the Borg Warner S363 evaluation.

as you may know we did roll out a new type of AI system using fuel injectors controlled by the Power FC utilizing 100% methanol. i am delighted w how it works.

the first few hours were spent re-dialing the main Map and Settings. Luke spent some time on the lag and i am now idling a full point and a half leaner w my 850s. a fair amount of time was spent on getting the (4) new Bosch EV14 secondaries to phase in properly and some work on a leanish tip in.

setup work for the first turbo of course is foundational for all the following turbos so we want things to be right from the getgo. once this is done the other turbos will be able to be evaluated fairly quickly.

the plan is to run all turbos off the spring which is close to 15 psi, and then 20, and maximum.

the following power results are not the end of the road for the Borg Warner... off the spring we have AFRs about right but do not have timing optimised. we are looking for 1400 degrees between 2 psi and 13 psi and we are only around 1100 so there is a bit more before we are thru w the spring setting. i am confident that w a touch more work we will have 400+ SAE rwhp from 6500 to 8500. here are the initial results.



boost



afr



the turbo seems to like higher boost and once we have a better tune 9000 rpm.
since we were only doing initial evaluation we decided to run it up to a happy spot on the compressor map around 24 psi.

while it made an honest 514 SAE rwhp it was handicapped by an unfinished fuel map... i will later post a Datalogit chart showing it cycling into a too rich mode which then drops the boost which lowers power. both Luke and i are comfortable that the turbo has an honest 550 in it.



as you can see we have unfinished business w the fuel map. considering 30% of the 121,509 BTUs is methanol we should easily be able to flatline AFRs at 11.3 which would allow the slope to contiunue rising from 7300 all the way to 9000.

as you will see below EGTs are gorgeous and provide significant room for further tuning, read hp.



boost 24



1525 F EGTs at 7300 and 514 hp! we have another 150 F to add into the tune. note from zero boost P7 EGTs are in the 11-1250s. we will tune them up to 1400.



Fuel pressure at approx 24 boost is holding up. you really need to log fuel pressure... 74.7% duty cycle at 7300 and 514



here's ignition advance (11 degree split in boost)


knock



so overall, it is too early to reach conclusions on the BW. the final tune is not yet determined. we did one final run after the 24 psi dyno above and did gain 30 hp at 6000 by leaning it out a bit. (you can see the power was a bit soft in that RPM area.) we did not change later parts of the map.

this is just one small step for man... but it is only the first.

to be continued.

Thanks Luke and the gang at Beyond Redline.

howard

Grant M

I think 27 pages counts for a book IMO! Great work. What AR are you using with the BW?

Really looking forward to the omparison with the GT4094R with the BW as I narrowed my choices down to those 2 turbos. In the end it was the price that put me off from the GT40, but might have been worth it if there isn't too much of a difference between the 2 turbos. As I'm sure a bit of pre turbo WI will bring the BW up to that of the GT.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Congratulations, I know this is a hard fought success. I am sure more is to come. Thanks for your many contributions!

jantore

Hands up Howard this is a great step forward in the progress. Im looking forward to seeing your dyno with the GT4094R turbo.

Im abit concerned that you said you finished off with a engine problem. Care to elaborate?

I have just orderd the GT4094R for my BP engine.

JT

just startn

iTrader: (33)

Glade you got the data started. This is going to get interesting. How many engines you reckon its going to take to get all the turbos done on "high boost"?

AaronJ

iTrader: (12)

the the big question is what size hotside was this done on?

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

Exciting results Howard. I'm also curious what the "engine problem" is. G'luck, and looking forward to updates.

just startn

iTrader: (33)

Yes. Howard can we please get the run down on all the turbos in testing here?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"can we please get the run down on all the turbos in testing here?"

what? you mean you don't remember post 68 in june of 2010??????????????

here's post 68. all of the 3 will be tested and i hope we can add a couple.

june 2010.......

three of the four turbos have arrived and i thought you might be interested in seeing them before we turn the turbine housings cherry red.

BorgWarner S300 63
compressor very close to same average area of a TO4z or PT67 BUT w a significantly smaller Trim so it should spool better. has a bigger turbine area 6.3 sq inches V the other 67s which are 5.8.

GT4094r
i picked it as i need 600 rw for my 200 mph Texas Mile attempt. a bit small on the turbine but i didn't want the huge bulk w the GT42.

GT3574
GT35r compressor w a larger P trim turbine. journal bearing. it will be very interesting to compare spool etc to the other turbo to be tested which is not in the pics... a ball bearing GT3582r. i did have to jump thru a hoop or two to get the uprated Garrett compressor housing on this turbo but Sean got it done.






GT4094r 1.06 A/R. S300 1.00 A/R



GT3574 .84 A/R


BW S300 63


GT4094r


GT3574



here's what they look like ready. almost to do business:

GT4094r


GT3574


BW S300 63

Grant M

Can any explain why my BWs300 outlet turbine is different from howards?

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

your turbine wheel looks like its been clipped


btw i think a more interesting comparison would be different manifold designs. divided vs undivided, divided single wastegate vs dual wastegates, small runner diameter vs large, short runner length vs long

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"different manifold designs"

while the comparison re manifolding may or may not be "more interesting" than different turbos i think it is extremely interesting. there are many perhaps under appreciated facets some of which have already been presented in this thread and will again resurface as additional data is generated. proper manifolding is very important.

BTW, i am going to make one change in my setup before getting back on the rollers. i am adding an AEM 4 channel wideband. it will run on 3 channels.

i will have one AFR sensor in each of the preturbo runners and one post turbo in the downpipe.

since my new style Datalogit has 8 inputs i will be able to log all 3 AFRs. i am dealing w new injectors and want to know what is actually going on. the AEM setup has a slick heat dissapation bung and the actual probe is not directly in the flow.

install is subject to me having a brief conversation w AEM to make sure it will handle 1800 F.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideba...q0uf3j7v0rrrs0

hc

2a+RoN

Nope, they won't handle the temps. Bosch LSU 4.9 will handle those kind of temps with proper temp compensation in the controller, but not the LSU 4.2. They are only rated for around 1650 max going from memory.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

according to the Bosch product description both the LSU4.2 and LSU4.9 are rated to 1030C max or 1886 F and 930C 1706 F operating which should work for me.

i will still give them a call. the LSU4.9 is slightly faster and more acurate off Lamda.

thanks for the tip

hc

itbvolks

Howard,

Great stuffs here for sure. I think this provides great value in terms of testing setups based on best case optimization for each turbo.

For clarification, I'm assuming the unit you are testing (BW unit) is the 8875 S300sx (S362 w/63mm inducer) in a divided 1.00ar housing - correct? Just trying to understand what turbo this really is...

I'm also very curious what turbine your running as BW offers 2x different 75mm wheels (cupped vs flat tip). I'm currently looking at the newer 62mm (8375) S300sx utilizing the FMW EFR billet aero compressor coupled with the S362's cupped turbine in a 1.10ar housing (piston motor application) so this comparo your running is great timing based on my interest in seeing how BW ETT tech stacks up...

Also, I think the use of the AEM WB setup should provide interesting information. I'm curious to see how it correlates vs going with straight EGT as a tuning aid...


Awesome work!


Grant - what unit is yours? 8875 - S362? What housing?

2a+RoN

Hmm, maybe I am mistaken. I was under the impression the 4.2 did not handle temps as well as the 4.9..

2a+RoN

Do you have means of comparing multiple channels with the datalogit?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

using the chart Datalogit function you can compare up to 10 items... here, for example, is a section of my front and rear raw voltages for my two preturbo EGTs.

my front EGT is reading either erroneously or i have/had a problem in the front rotor in addition to possibly losing elec contact under high boost...

and of course that's why you have instrumentation



Y scaling, as well as X scaling, is open ended as is coloration

howard

FullFunctionEng

iTrader: (13)

Can you setup math channels?
If so you should make a fuel pressure minus map channel since absolute fp isn't really relevant.
Once you do that it will tell a lot about your fuel pump and regulator performance.

Just answered my question with post 628..

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

the engine will come out of my car probably tomorrow and will be apart by the weekend. i have some preliminary ideas as to the cause (which do not include the motor) but choose not to speculate until i lock it down.

i also have some thoughts on the turbo but until it gets a final tune out i will keep them to myself. combining the coolish egts during spool, and my suspicions re the AFRs there is a bit more in the BW. i thought it was capable of 550 real hp, that'd be SAE, and it appears that will happen.

i also am quite happy w my turbo manifold as the torque/hp curve extends nicely.

the primary purpose of my project is relative, not absolute. i am looking forward to being able to lay spool curves over each other from different turbos as well as all the other metrics.

hc

Grant M

Better to identify the problem now than end up struggling through with all the other turbos.

I always had problems with my FD, sometimes I just thought it was cursed.

What type of dyno are you using?

Running the BW turbo on my bridge port motor should net me some good numbers by the looks of things.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

The problem is that you are basing a conclusion on a dyno run when you don't have all the information. It's a very common mistake made on forums and with dyno numbers in general. People always want to believe the "higher" reading dyno and discount the others such as Mustang dynos when the truth is no one knows which is most accurate. They are supposed to all measure the same thing so why aren't they all the same? He is using the dyno as a tool for comparison, tuning, and learning which is what it should be used for. One run doesn't mean everything was dialed in or tuned either. You have a right to be skeptical but I suspect that your skepticism is that you feel either the turbo has a problem or the engine does, which it may, rather than thinking that it isn't tuned perfectly yet which is more plausible. I personally don't trust any numbers as absolutes on a dyno and neither should anyone else. It's a tool. Treat it as one. When someone says, my car makes X amount of power, I generally will say that it's somewhere near there.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"dyno as a tool for comparison"

thanks for that...

the dyno is an excellent piece. it is a Dynojet 424xLC2. here is a description of the sister 2 wheel drive unit... (the BR setup is 4 wheel)

"This Model 224xLC can perform load tests including step, sweep and loaded roll-on. Closed loop load testing is also available by targeting engine RPM, speed or percentage of load. A simple click of the mouse or keyboard can turn the 224xlc from an eddy current dynamometer back into an inertia only dynamometer or vice versa. The torque cell calibration routine takes less than a minute to perform."

the numbers, while no doubt different than other dynos as all dynos read different numbers, correlate properly w many of the other big time dyno operations in the midwest.

further BR has always used the proper Correction factor which is SAE. that generates a lower output than Standard ..

my SAE hp number was 514

if i had reported it in Standard it would have been 525

the dyno is 1500 hp capable and can be run to 200 mph. after this project finishes we will eventually test 200 mph as we tune for the Texas Mile. 8000 RPM in 5th gear should be interesting.


howard

RW-7

iTrader: (56)

Thread cleaned up. Again...
Guys, if you don't have anything productive to post, then don't.
This was the second time this thread has got derailed.
If it happens again, infractions will be given.
-Robert, SuperMod.

Keep up the good work Howard!!

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Robert.

And Thank You Mr. Howard Coleman. This is one of my favorite threads currently, and I re-visit it daily. Keep up the good work!