sent you an email with a spreadsheet of runs with various timing changes
performed around 16psi

 

You're still comparing apples to kiwis here. New technology? Hello? Do you know where the infamous programming for the Apex'i PFC came from? It's still over 10 years old! And you are comparing that to a new ECU in the PORSCHE? The only newer ECU I see out there (that I am familiar with) is the AEM. Even that has its lack of rotary market share.

Here is a monkey wrench for you: I run 22+psi on pump gas in a built 13-Brew. Without the crutch (or safety net...depending on your views) of H20 injection. I have no serious problems.

Okay, I am lying:
Keeping the points off my license IS a serious problem.
Lack of traction IS a serious problem.
Keeping the car in control IS a serious problem.

Now what is your real pupose here? Rehashing the system design of a wankel based engine and pointing out that our seals are not as forgiving as the seals in a piston engine based on where and how they are positioning in the combustion cycle?

I came from the piston engine world back when the first Rx-7 came out and know how to tune a V8, NA or pressurized, just as I learned on a rotary engine. Any NA engine is going to be a little more forgiving. Any pressurized engine is going to be less forgiving to the wrong side of the "ragged edge."

I would suggest Blake Q.'s illustrations on how a rotary works, Yaw Power's timing and technicial information, and Corky Bell's Turbocharging "bible." Then perhaps similiar information on how a "boinger" works. (Check out http://auto.howstuffworks.com/)

All said and done that should lay the foundation for the different "ragged edges" that piston and rotary tuning have. Perhaps you have read all that information already (but others reading the thread might not have.)

Rotary combustion chambers have different surface areas, hot spots, variables than a piston combustion chamber. If you increase pressure your "equation" shifts and your tolerences against uncontrolled combustion changes. Managing that equation is the trick. The inherent differences of a rotary are going to bring differences into play and have different results than a piston engine. On the low end of tuning ability, you are going to have less forgiving results than other systems/equations/engines.

 

Premix actually LOWERS your octane. Oil can actually cause detonation. This is shown in piston engines when they are burning oil (oil is entering the combustion chamber for one reason or another), they have a higher rate of detonation.

Keep this in mind when selecting your motor oil or premix.... I use amsoil 2 stroke oil, it's a synthetic, and it leaves no residue, and I believe it does not even combust. I also use my oil metering pump, but it draws from a separate reservoir with 2 stroke oil (not the oil pan).

 

In your infinate wisdom can you tell me how much it lowers octane?

Say we start with 100 octane and run 1 oz to 1 gallon.

From what I have read you end up with 99.9 octane.

Show me proof of your statement below pls

 

i know 2 cars personally thats running 20 to 21 psi on pump gas daily....
(john) aka boostn7....is one for sure...its all in tuneing..
and the other guy with a t-88 at 20 psi...on pump gas....

 

If all you're after is a high reading on your boost gauge just retard the timing thru the floor and run 21-22 psi (or more) on pump. Then you can enjoy telling people that don't know any better that they're soft because they don't run as much boost as you. You can also enjoy high EGT's, increased backpressure, and hotter charge air.

Educated people know that doesn't guarantee your setup is making more power than those running 17-18 psi with standard timing.

 

Trevor,

What is the relationship between timing and backpressure? I don't have my pressure sensor engaged in my manifold yet.

Tony

 

The increased backpressure comes from increasing the boost.

 

The only thing greatly retarded in this thread is soft (unts who dont know how to run real boost ! *its pretty basic*

20psi is NOT HIGH !

26 ~ 28psi is up there on pump fuel (with a bit of water to help)

EGT and back pressure are under control if you know how to pick a turbo and understand the concept of ignition timing to suit MBT or knock limit, most run to MBT.

If you "think" 17-18psi is cutting edge and you can make up power by running 12.5:1 and 25 deg advance, then you need to get yourself into a Honda Civic ?

No amount of **** of the internet be it a WB meter site rehashing worthless information proclaiming how rich or retarded you run and its bad effects will change the basic facts of how to make reliable horse power on rotary engined cars. Throwing round ***** nilly comments like EGT is too high, or back pressure is too high, with NO FIGURES to back you up not only reads stupidly but makes you look it as well

 

I'm not going to waste my time fighting with you about it. It's rather obvious you believe you know it all.

 

The best *argument* you can have is with numbers & experience, I have many. You have? Well .... yes you should give up, wise choice on your part there

If you know something post it up we have chassis dyno, engine dyno, & test all types of engines... have many friends and peers who do the same all over the planet in various corners, and you & others come on and type a blanket statement dismising what I know for fact because you read it off the web?.

Technical knowledge by google does not count

 

First off...do you know me? Because I'm certain I don't know you. I'm just wondering why you're so quick to discredit my experience tuning when the extent of your knowledge of me is a few short posts on this message board.

How about this. Educate me then. A nice start would be comparative HP numbers or trap speeds while at max boost (actually on the knock threshold) with decent timing (say 17-19* at the torque peak with 8 split) vs max boost and on the knock threshold with the 12* & 8 split you seem to be fond of. You must have tried it and posess the hard data if you're so adamantly opposed to running more timing and less boost.

I'm all ears...errrr...eyes. Show me the error of my ways.

Also please include important information about the setup. Obviously compressor, turbine, and intercooler efficiency will play a huge role in where the sweet spot ends up at both boost and timing wise.

 

^ Thats correct

You have chosen with your short few posts to give an alternate view to what "we" do. And say its wrong? not ideal? not the same as on the Innovate motorsports website ???? lol

I suggest to you, show me/us your bank of experience, and cars running for years/months/days? on pump 93 gas with or without water, there power levels? and your set ups and we can pass judgment then?

Till then you will find quite a few of us wont bother to post the exact "frame by frame bible" on how to get a 13BT to make big power day in day out on pump fuel, but if your detective skills are good enough you can troll through years worth of posts and get all the little bits of info people like myself, enzo250 & crispeed (to name but a few) have shared with everyone what "we have done"

All cars are different, some will like timing, some wont, the more power challenged it is then you can dial in **** loads of timing it wont make much difference as the charging efficiency is that low it needs lots of timing to make any power at all

SOME PEOPLE USE THIS BOARD AS A REFERENCE TOOL, I can say I make more power on pump fuel than the majority of others do, and with 100% reliability across many cars and a period of years, please present us with your track record and teach us all about what can be done on pump fuel....... I doubt its worth waiting for a responce, but if its good you can start another thread on it for everyones benifit

This ones over.

 

YES ! 100% safe and you will make far more power than you will running a hand grenade engine running less boost with jacked up timing and leaner fuel mixture The extra fuel richness will cool the turbo and the engine and bring down your EGT, the sensible timing values will give you a healthy margin of saftey to cover a bad fuel batch or adverse weather conditions and you will make a **** load more power than the person trying to save fuel and make power at the same time (on slighly lower boost), one things for sure you will go through less motors & turbo's

20psi is nothing for a decent turbo charger, its a waste of ******* time, effort and money going single turbo on a FD if you dont plan to run this as a minimum !