Methanol Magic: 500+ on the street
11-06-07, 09:27 PM
#1
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Methanol Magic: 500+ on the street
maybe you have cruised the Auxiliary Injection Section and maybe you even run AI.
the alternative is to fill up w racegas and do your mega hp run. then crank down the boost and run 400 on the street.
sound familiar?
if you run AI and pump you can crank up the boost and have it all. along w no knock.
the reason for this thread is to introduce you to a new AI system that i will be installing during the next week and will be immediately dynoing.
i expect my 2ND Gen FJO AI and Wide Band system to arrive friday, Nov 9. this will be one of the first in consumer hands and i have been holding off on my last (20-23 psi) dyno session in order to evaluate it.
it sure looks good on paper.
it will run two High Speed Valve (solenoids) that deliver 1400 CC/Min of Methanol. that's up slightly from my two M10 Alkycontrol nozzles at 1260.
i am very excited about being able to set the exact amount of alcohol i want on an X-Y Grid w boost and RPM as parameters.
set it exactly.
set it at any delivery rate at any RPM at a constant boost level....
something i couldn't do w the "progressive" PWM pump setup.
here is the grid from the FJO first gen AI model to give you an idea... the cell entries are % of full delivery.
here is what i have worked up for my setup using my Power FC. while the FJO grid is 16 X 16 and the PFC is 20 X 20 keep in mind that AI is only being used in the boost section so there is actually more definition than the PFC offers.
my twin TO4 setup should reach max airflow, around 80+ pounds per minute, between 17 and 23 psi so my grid is set accordingly. peak torque is denoted by the orange twin column between 6 and 6400 RPM. that's where you want max meth delivery and then tail it off as you reduce fuel.
you can't do that w a progressive system.
there are many inputs (TPS, Boost, RPM, AFR, injector duty cycle to name a few) each of which is tunable and each can trigger outputs such as reversion to wastegate spring boost pressure, fuel cut, multiple maps etc, etc.
the 2nd Gen FJO AI system has it's own 4 bar MAP sensor and boost control complete w solenoid. anyone interested in an Apexi AVCR?
like all FJO components the AI system is designed to actively interface with other FJO systems.
i am installing FJO's new WideBand. the WB can input to the AI system and trigger outputs (safeguards) if at a given TPS and AFR things fall outside of your stipulated settings.
other AI companies, Aquamist and Coolingmist already offer Solenoid systems. they are the forward AI architecture.
consider:
you are tracking your FD and you are on and off the throttle in a corner but mainly on the gas. as you modulate the throttle the boost dives down and back up. the progressive system following your boost doesn't have a chance matching delivery as the pump mass and mechanical drag just can't keep up. sort of like a 49 Buick running w your FD on a road course.
the High Speed Valve or Solenoid or call it what it really is.... a Fuel Injector can.
the pump just maintains a constant pressure and the VALVE opens and closes like your fuel injector to vary the delivery based on what cell you are in. to the Ms.
WOW.
i talked w Julio at Alkycontrol about this a year ago. Julio is an Electrical Engineer and Racer as well as proprietor of Alkycontrol. i think he makes the best progressive system on the market. it hasn't let me down over two seasons.
his answer was.... we don't really care about the on-off stuff we are primarily drag racers. right then and there i resolved to take my AI system up to the Cell by Cell High Speed Solenoid setup.
so starts the process. i will post pictures of the install and will of course follow up w a complete dyno report.
there is a writeup on the unit in the just-on-the-newstands Turbo (Jan) Mag BTW.
i will also be using FJO's neat cheap SS pressure and temperature sensors. i plan to add oil pressure and oil temperature to my current digitally logged fuel pressure, exhaust back pressure and 2 pre turbo EGTs.
just a final comment on FJO... located in Winnepeg, originally created electrical products for a number of Aerospace companies which must remain nameless though one is located in the state of Washington and makes lots of airplanes.
all built to Military Specifications. bombproof. the company appears to be heavy on product and perhaps light on marketing. i have no problem w that. they are car guys and have an inhouse pump/meth camaro making over 1200 to the wheels.
and are becoming quite interested in the rotary. they do make a neat EMS. hmmm. FJO.com
lots more general AI info in the section.
stay tuned,
howard coleman
the alternative is to fill up w racegas and do your mega hp run. then crank down the boost and run 400 on the street.
sound familiar?
if you run AI and pump you can crank up the boost and have it all. along w no knock.
the reason for this thread is to introduce you to a new AI system that i will be installing during the next week and will be immediately dynoing.
i expect my 2ND Gen FJO AI and Wide Band system to arrive friday, Nov 9. this will be one of the first in consumer hands and i have been holding off on my last (20-23 psi) dyno session in order to evaluate it.
it sure looks good on paper.
it will run two High Speed Valve (solenoids) that deliver 1400 CC/Min of Methanol. that's up slightly from my two M10 Alkycontrol nozzles at 1260.
i am very excited about being able to set the exact amount of alcohol i want on an X-Y Grid w boost and RPM as parameters.
set it exactly.
set it at any delivery rate at any RPM at a constant boost level....
something i couldn't do w the "progressive" PWM pump setup.
here is the grid from the FJO first gen AI model to give you an idea... the cell entries are % of full delivery.
here is what i have worked up for my setup using my Power FC. while the FJO grid is 16 X 16 and the PFC is 20 X 20 keep in mind that AI is only being used in the boost section so there is actually more definition than the PFC offers.
my twin TO4 setup should reach max airflow, around 80+ pounds per minute, between 17 and 23 psi so my grid is set accordingly. peak torque is denoted by the orange twin column between 6 and 6400 RPM. that's where you want max meth delivery and then tail it off as you reduce fuel.
you can't do that w a progressive system.
there are many inputs (TPS, Boost, RPM, AFR, injector duty cycle to name a few) each of which is tunable and each can trigger outputs such as reversion to wastegate spring boost pressure, fuel cut, multiple maps etc, etc.
the 2nd Gen FJO AI system has it's own 4 bar MAP sensor and boost control complete w solenoid. anyone interested in an Apexi AVCR?
like all FJO components the AI system is designed to actively interface with other FJO systems.
i am installing FJO's new WideBand. the WB can input to the AI system and trigger outputs (safeguards) if at a given TPS and AFR things fall outside of your stipulated settings.
other AI companies, Aquamist and Coolingmist already offer Solenoid systems. they are the forward AI architecture.
consider:
you are tracking your FD and you are on and off the throttle in a corner but mainly on the gas. as you modulate the throttle the boost dives down and back up. the progressive system following your boost doesn't have a chance matching delivery as the pump mass and mechanical drag just can't keep up. sort of like a 49 Buick running w your FD on a road course.
the High Speed Valve or Solenoid or call it what it really is.... a Fuel Injector can.
the pump just maintains a constant pressure and the VALVE opens and closes like your fuel injector to vary the delivery based on what cell you are in. to the Ms.
WOW.
i talked w Julio at Alkycontrol about this a year ago. Julio is an Electrical Engineer and Racer as well as proprietor of Alkycontrol. i think he makes the best progressive system on the market. it hasn't let me down over two seasons.
his answer was.... we don't really care about the on-off stuff we are primarily drag racers. right then and there i resolved to take my AI system up to the Cell by Cell High Speed Solenoid setup.
so starts the process. i will post pictures of the install and will of course follow up w a complete dyno report.
there is a writeup on the unit in the just-on-the-newstands Turbo (Jan) Mag BTW.
i will also be using FJO's neat cheap SS pressure and temperature sensors. i plan to add oil pressure and oil temperature to my current digitally logged fuel pressure, exhaust back pressure and 2 pre turbo EGTs.
just a final comment on FJO... located in Winnepeg, originally created electrical products for a number of Aerospace companies which must remain nameless though one is located in the state of Washington and makes lots of airplanes.
all built to Military Specifications. bombproof. the company appears to be heavy on product and perhaps light on marketing. i have no problem w that. they are car guys and have an inhouse pump/meth camaro making over 1200 to the wheels.
and are becoming quite interested in the rotary. they do make a neat EMS. hmmm. FJO.com
lots more general AI info in the section.
stay tuned,
howard coleman
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 11-06-07 at 09:47 PM.
11-06-07, 10:13 PM
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nice i like the idea. i was throwing around something like that awhile back, only i was going to use the GZ lower manifold w/ 4 injector bungs to run straight pump. and then use the "secondaries" as AI. of course they would be in the primary injector spots. im using the AEM universal race EMS!
and now that i have the ground zero maniflod i may still look into doing this!
would like to see some dynos running this setup
Z
and now that i have the ground zero maniflod i may still look into doing this!
would like to see some dynos running this setup
Z
11-06-07, 10:21 PM
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I'd been looking at this unit since last year. They were way ahead of the game then. Their system was a little pricey though so i went with a cooling mist kit. I'm already looking forward to the feedback on this kit. Good luck Howard
11-06-07, 10:25 PM
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nice i like the idea. i was throwing around something like that awhile back, only i was going to use the GZ lower manifold w/ 4 injector bungs to run straight pump. and then use the "secondaries" as AI. of course they would be in the primary injector spots. im using the AEM universal race EMS!
and now that i have the ground zero maniflod i may still look into doing this!
would like to see some dynos running this setup
Z
and now that i have the ground zero maniflod i may still look into doing this!
would like to see some dynos running this setup
Z
11-06-07, 10:33 PM
#5
I think the title of the thread should be "700+RWHP on..."
Because "500+RWHP" is so common now.
Thanks for the research and sharing of the results, Howard. glad I have not invested in an AI system yet. Waiting for your results.
Tony
Because "500+RWHP" is so common now.
Thanks for the research and sharing of the results, Howard. glad I have not invested in an AI system yet. Waiting for your results.
Tony
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11-07-07, 11:47 AM
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development
11-11-07, 02:49 PM
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prices from www.horsepowerfreaks.com/buy/FJO
controller: 330.14
pump: 132.41
solenoid: 158.00 /per solenoid. It looks like howard is going to run 2. They have 400,600,700,900,1200cc/min solenoids.
install kit: 82.77
total: 703.18 with out a tank
if you want their wideband it is $513
with the cooling mist s-hsv kit being 625 i would spend the extra $75 and get the fjo setup.
controller: 330.14
pump: 132.41
solenoid: 158.00 /per solenoid. It looks like howard is going to run 2. They have 400,600,700,900,1200cc/min solenoids.
install kit: 82.77
total: 703.18 with out a tank
if you want their wideband it is $513
with the cooling mist s-hsv kit being 625 i would spend the extra $75 and get the fjo setup.
11-11-07, 03:06 PM
#11
Just an fyi, anyone looking for engine management or anyone that already owns one and is looking to do AI, the Haltech E8 and E11 have the same type of rpm v. load control structure for one of their aux out channels that Howard is talking about with the FJO controller. The resolution is 32 x 32. The load sites and the rpm ranges are user defineable so they can all be stacked into the area you'll be using AI if you desire.
11-11-07, 04:27 PM
#12
..
I do not think this is the newest version as I was looking at this page (you posted up) a few weeks back. Also I was looking for the complete kit as they advertise on their web site. FWI I purchased my FJO WB a month ago from Alamo and it was much cheaper than Horsepower Freaks..
prices from www.horsepowerfreaks.com/buy/FJO
controller: 330.14
pump: 132.41
solenoid: 158.00 /per solenoid. It looks like howard is going to run 2. They have 400,600,700,900,1200cc/min solenoids.
install kit: 82.77
total: 703.18 with out a tank
if you want their wideband it is $513
with the cooling mist s-hsv kit being 625 i would spend the extra $75 and get the fjo setup.
controller: 330.14
pump: 132.41
solenoid: 158.00 /per solenoid. It looks like howard is going to run 2. They have 400,600,700,900,1200cc/min solenoids.
install kit: 82.77
total: 703.18 with out a tank
if you want their wideband it is $513
with the cooling mist s-hsv kit being 625 i would spend the extra $75 and get the fjo setup.
11-11-07, 06:44 PM
#13
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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here's a couple of pics showing the hardware i received on friday. i should complete installation by late monday w the exception of the AI injector/solenoids. w some luck i will be on the dyno sunday.
the spark plug on the wideband controller should give you an idea how compact the modules are.
the spark plug on the wideband controller should give you an idea how compact the modules are.
11-12-07, 02:46 PM
#17
The bosch is too slow to pick up a quick change from off to on boost during gear changes and even just during the transition on quick responding turbo setups etc. The transition is one of the most important map point's on a ECU because it makes a huge difference on acceleration rate even if the power is the same. It's also very important when tuning methanol!
On methanol the bosch response is like comparing a Yugo to a Porsche.
Last edited by crispeed; 11-12-07 at 02:58 PM.
11-13-07, 08:20 PM
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thanks all for the heads up re the Bosch V NTK sensors. FJO offers both and is sending me an NTK.
wiring is near finished and i may have pictures of my elbow with the two solenoids attached by tomorrow eve. there is just enough room for my 3 o'clock solenoid at the elbow in relation to the inner shock tower. perhaps mazda knew we would be adding solenoids. the other solenoid is at 6 o'clock and doesn't interfere w sparkplug install and removal.
the 6 o'clock biases toward the secondaries and the 3 o'clock compensates for the turn toward the throttle body.
film at eleven. maybe
hc
wiring is near finished and i may have pictures of my elbow with the two solenoids attached by tomorrow eve. there is just enough room for my 3 o'clock solenoid at the elbow in relation to the inner shock tower. perhaps mazda knew we would be adding solenoids. the other solenoid is at 6 o'clock and doesn't interfere w sparkplug install and removal.
the 6 o'clock biases toward the secondaries and the 3 o'clock compensates for the turn toward the throttle body.
film at eleven. maybe
hc
11-17-07, 07:22 PM
#20
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installation pics...
post 14.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/fjo-2nd-gen-ai-interfacing-wide-band-install-tune-thread-702559/
post 14.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/fjo-2nd-gen-ai-interfacing-wide-band-install-tune-thread-702559/
11-18-07, 06:10 PM
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Howard, any thoughts on the direct port water meth setup from cooling mist. That looks like a trick setup for sure even distribution. I have the stage II with progressive controller on my car now, and it works great, but was thinking about upgrading to that.
11-18-07, 07:33 PM
#22
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one of the most intriguing questions re AI relates to just where in the intake runner is the best injector location...
is it best to inject very close to the combustion chamber or is it better to inject a bit upstream so as to allow better mixing and a longer period to cool the charge air.
i have no answer.
you certainly will get better distribution if you inject in each runner.
i inject 100% methanol and note after a dyno pull that my UIM is very cold. that's good and bad. good because it shows how much cooling is taking place. bad because i'd rather have all that cooling in my combustion chamber rather than in the aluminum.
when i initially decided on AI i was going to locate my injectors within the LIM..... four injectors on the 4 runners. my AI guy suggested that before i try to invent a new wheel i should just get it running. in retrospect i think his advice was sound. i am happy with where my nozzles were for the last year and a half and am fixturing my AI solenoids within 2 inches of my prior location. i am moving from the silicone coupler in front of the elbow to approx 1.3 inches from the upstream end of the elbow.... at 3 and 6 o'clock.
my throttle plates, egts on both rotors and plugs look like even distribution.
hc
is it best to inject very close to the combustion chamber or is it better to inject a bit upstream so as to allow better mixing and a longer period to cool the charge air.
i have no answer.
you certainly will get better distribution if you inject in each runner.
i inject 100% methanol and note after a dyno pull that my UIM is very cold. that's good and bad. good because it shows how much cooling is taking place. bad because i'd rather have all that cooling in my combustion chamber rather than in the aluminum.
when i initially decided on AI i was going to locate my injectors within the LIM..... four injectors on the 4 runners. my AI guy suggested that before i try to invent a new wheel i should just get it running. in retrospect i think his advice was sound. i am happy with where my nozzles were for the last year and a half and am fixturing my AI solenoids within 2 inches of my prior location. i am moving from the silicone coupler in front of the elbow to approx 1.3 inches from the upstream end of the elbow.... at 3 and 6 o'clock.
my throttle plates, egts on both rotors and plugs look like even distribution.
hc
11-19-07, 07:00 AM
#25
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i, too, was wondering how the zeros ended up in the middle of boost cells on the FJO grid in addition to the weird boost progression.
i was so overwhelmed by the value of having an XY AI tuning grid and the prospect of doing cell by cell AI tuning that i just moved on.
i often marvel at things like that. all the work, if not genius, to come up w the concept and execution and then someone just throws numbers in. sort of like a 99 yard drive ending w no points. happily, there's an easy fix.
as to injector location i am not totally convinced that closer to the combustion chamber is better. my friend Joes LeDuc runs a 13B meth drag car, RX3. he recently ran 7.58 at E'Town and is still dialing it in. Jose said that alcohol needs some time to "flash." if not given that time it is less effective. so maybe there is such a thing as too close.
my project is sufficiently undialed that i will leave location experiments to others for a while. my install is now complete w the exception of the elbow which, hopefully, will be ready today.
hc
i was so overwhelmed by the value of having an XY AI tuning grid and the prospect of doing cell by cell AI tuning that i just moved on.
i often marvel at things like that. all the work, if not genius, to come up w the concept and execution and then someone just throws numbers in. sort of like a 99 yard drive ending w no points. happily, there's an easy fix.
as to injector location i am not totally convinced that closer to the combustion chamber is better. my friend Joes LeDuc runs a 13B meth drag car, RX3. he recently ran 7.58 at E'Town and is still dialing it in. Jose said that alcohol needs some time to "flash." if not given that time it is less effective. so maybe there is such a thing as too close.
my project is sufficiently undialed that i will leave location experiments to others for a while. my install is now complete w the exception of the elbow which, hopefully, will be ready today.
hc