Internal engine mods needed for 450whp and up?
02-12-09, 11:00 AM
#26
BDC Motorsports
I use to be a firm believer of no dowelling being required. But after cracking a fair few plates, i got sick of it. All the plates broke when their was a problem in the tune, buti know with my engine, i m always trying new things and their is always a chance that things go wrong, and since i have dowelled my motor, i havnt cracked a single plate even with the same conditions that would have cracked it before.
Afterall, the question must be asked with all sincerity: Why did Mazda change the cast molds for the front and rear iron plates to have the REW-style, thicker dowel lands in the early 90's?
I am not a believer of the stud kit, i have seen engines split the front plate into 4 or more pieces with the stud kit, same engine dowelled, but back in car and no more cracked front plates. It also can leak water out of the back like peter said. This particular engine dynoed 984bhp, PP turbo gt47r etc .
B
02-12-09, 11:04 AM
#27
BDC Motorsports
B
02-12-09, 03:43 PM
#29
I believe dowells.
But to keep the thread clean im going to choose to disagree with pete. And well leave at that instead of getting into an argument.
I will admit. I have not had a REW engine crack on me but i wont take the risk. Like i said if your paying 850 USD for apex seals, 100-150 USD to dowell an engine is small in comparison.
It **MAY** not be required but you are not taking a step backwards by adding in this safety.
But to keep the thread clean im going to choose to disagree with pete. And well leave at that instead of getting into an argument.
I will admit. I have not had a REW engine crack on me but i wont take the risk. Like i said if your paying 850 USD for apex seals, 100-150 USD to dowell an engine is small in comparison.
It **MAY** not be required but you are not taking a step backwards by adding in this safety.
02-12-09, 04:59 PM
#30
BDC Motorsports
I believe dowells.
But to keep the thread clean im going to choose to disagree with pete. And well leave at that instead of getting into an argument.
I will admit. I have not had a REW engine crack on me but i wont take the risk. Like i said if your paying 850 USD for apex seals, 100-150 USD to dowell an engine is small in comparison.
It **MAY** not be required but you are not taking a step backwards by adding in this safety.
But to keep the thread clean im going to choose to disagree with pete. And well leave at that instead of getting into an argument.
I will admit. I have not had a REW engine crack on me but i wont take the risk. Like i said if your paying 850 USD for apex seals, 100-150 USD to dowell an engine is small in comparison.
It **MAY** not be required but you are not taking a step backwards by adding in this safety.
B
02-12-09, 05:24 PM
#31
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Like I said (again)
Most of you have not even done it by admission
so I don't know how you can state a fact, but if its an opinion then you are free to express that
13B-REW need no such "proven stress raising" modifications
In any doubts ring Mazsport (Bill Nabham) he will pass on the "story" to you
Most of you have not even done it by admission
so I don't know how you can state a fact, but if its an opinion then you are free to express that 13B-REW need no such "proven stress raising" modifications
In any doubts ring Mazsport (Bill Nabham) he will pass on the "story" to you
02-12-09, 05:37 PM
#32
Bill nabahan? The guy who takes peoples money and disappears? The guy who sells a 7 second 12a, takes all the good parts off it? And car cant even run a 9 again?
That bill nabahan? or the bill nabaham that almost lost his customer cars due to owing a substantial amount of money to an ex-cutomer? i forgot to mention, its all the same bill nabahan. The guy that tells one customer his lebanese cause the customer is lebanese, and the one that tells his aussie customer that he is 100% australian no ties what so ever to benig arab?
I would say that dowelling works purely based on the fact that engines i have built(and other engine builders as well) that have cracked plates, but after replacing plate and dowelling engine, engine stops cracking plates.
Like i said above i have not seen a plate on a rew crack, but how did you come to the conclusion that it raises stress on the engine? and you say its proven? how so?
You say that drag racing is not a good measure of whether a engine is strong or not, i mean banana seals do excellent in drag racing, and not so excellent in other applications such as circuit racing were seals such as NRS really show their presence. So how is drag racing now a good example for a reliable car such as the 12a you mention or any of bill nabahams customer drag cars?
Lets remove all the mystery and hype surrounding drag cars, as you really never know the real story behind most of these cars, because the owners of these workshops are liars just like the one mentioned above.
Do you have any any proof at all that dowelling raises the stress on an engine? I will say i dont have any scientific proof that it stops plates from cracking, i only have personal experience, just like you have personal experience that the REW is a much stronger block and most likely dosnt require dowelling?
LIke i said im happy to accept that. But not this stress raising comment? please justify this comment.
That bill nabahan? or the bill nabaham that almost lost his customer cars due to owing a substantial amount of money to an ex-cutomer? i forgot to mention, its all the same bill nabahan. The guy that tells one customer his lebanese cause the customer is lebanese, and the one that tells his aussie customer that he is 100% australian no ties what so ever to benig arab?
I would say that dowelling works purely based on the fact that engines i have built(and other engine builders as well) that have cracked plates, but after replacing plate and dowelling engine, engine stops cracking plates.
Like i said above i have not seen a plate on a rew crack, but how did you come to the conclusion that it raises stress on the engine? and you say its proven? how so?
You say that drag racing is not a good measure of whether a engine is strong or not, i mean banana seals do excellent in drag racing, and not so excellent in other applications such as circuit racing were seals such as NRS really show their presence. So how is drag racing now a good example for a reliable car such as the 12a you mention or any of bill nabahams customer drag cars?
Lets remove all the mystery and hype surrounding drag cars, as you really never know the real story behind most of these cars, because the owners of these workshops are liars just like the one mentioned above.
Do you have any any proof at all that dowelling raises the stress on an engine? I will say i dont have any scientific proof that it stops plates from cracking, i only have personal experience, just like you have personal experience that the REW is a much stronger block and most likely dosnt require dowelling?
LIke i said im happy to accept that. But not this stress raising comment? please justify this comment.
02-12-09, 05:50 PM
#33
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Please show me a cracked 13B-REW plate
I will show you dozens of failed "dowled" engines.
Go study mechanical engineering and you will understand what a stress raiser is and why its evident in a doweled engine and why they ALL fail under power in same spots and split the plates.
There is no mechanical limitations of the 13B-REW plates, no normal ones that I can calculate ........... maybe you know something I don't
I will show you dozens of failed "dowled" engines.
Go study mechanical engineering and you will understand what a stress raiser is and why its evident in a doweled engine
and why they ALL fail under power in same spots and split the plates.There is no mechanical limitations of the 13B-REW plates, no normal ones that I can calculate ........... maybe you know something I don't
02-12-09, 05:58 PM
#34
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Everyone understands that cast Iron is no good under tension right? *well I hope they do*
By changing the design point of the load bearing to shared sections that do not have the reserve strength (never designed to be a load carrying point like the dowel area) combined with the fact that you are taking most of the expansion and contraction out of the physical design + combined with the way a slot drill cuts a sharp corner you are creating stress raisers in spots that were never ever designed to take a load bearing onto them.
This is why the plates split and **** them selves even in normal operation where a stock 13B-REW plate will not.
Ever wondered why they split right around the new machined strengthened area you are not strengthening the engine at all, you are making it much weaker and turning the design into an abortion in short.
It is totally not necessary and has zero merit, though it can be of financial benefit to the seller of the service
By changing the design point of the load bearing to shared sections that do not have the reserve strength (never designed to be a load carrying point like the dowel area) combined with the fact that you are taking most of the expansion and contraction out of the physical design + combined with the way a slot drill cuts a sharp corner you are creating stress raisers in spots that were never ever designed to take a load bearing onto them.
This is why the plates split and **** them selves even in normal operation where a stock 13B-REW plate will not.
Ever wondered why they split right around the new machined strengthened area
you are not strengthening the engine at all, you are making it much weaker and turning the design into an abortion in short.It is totally not necessary and has zero merit, though it can be of financial benefit to the seller of the service
02-12-09, 08:15 PM
#38
Studs................flame suit on
I believe that no motor, stock, doweled, or studded would have survived what i put this thing trough! I forgot to enable two channels for injectors so i had 4 1600s that were not firing
It destroyed almost everything in the motor. It was bad enough that it burnt the ground straps off my B9EGVs.I am going to stick with the studs though, however i have a couple ideas in my head to fortify things a little better for the next motor if it happens again
02-12-09, 10:09 PM
#40
What about the aluminum plates that racing beat is or used to sell, would that be better than cast iron?
13B-RX3> tell me what your idea is, I am building a semi-P I gotta take care of this problem before I put the engine together, I'm going with the studs kit too! And the worse thing is that I am building it on a S3 block! A lot of people already said that this is not cool! But it's too late now !
13B-RX3> tell me what your idea is, I am building a semi-P I gotta take care of this problem before I put the engine together, I'm going with the studs kit too! And the worse thing is that I am building it on a S3 block! A lot of people already said that this is not cool! But it's too late now !
02-13-09, 12:29 AM
#41
No offence to peter but were is his 1000bhp 13b to show me that he has done without any supporting mods? OR BDC for that matter?
I use to be a firm believer of no dowelling being required. But after cracking a fair few plates, i got sick of it. All the plates broke when their was a problem in the tune, buti know with my engine, i m always trying new things and their is always a chance that things go wrong, and since i have dowelled my motor, i havnt cracked a single plate even with the same conditions that would have cracked it before.
I am not a believer of the stud kit, i have seen engines split the front plate into 4 or more pieces with the stud kit, same engine dowelled, but back in car and no more cracked front plates. It also can leak water out of the back like peter said. This particular engine dynoed 984bhp, PP turbo gt47r etc .
I use to be a firm believer of no dowelling being required. But after cracking a fair few plates, i got sick of it. All the plates broke when their was a problem in the tune, buti know with my engine, i m always trying new things and their is always a chance that things go wrong, and since i have dowelled my motor, i havnt cracked a single plate even with the same conditions that would have cracked it before.
I am not a believer of the stud kit, i have seen engines split the front plate into 4 or more pieces with the stud kit, same engine dowelled, but back in car and no more cracked front plates. It also can leak water out of the back like peter said. This particular engine dynoed 984bhp, PP turbo gt47r etc .
BDC mentioned to me that the REW is significantly better "doweled" stock than the RE.
02-13-09, 12:44 AM
#42
Well it isnt signaficantly better dowelled. or how ever you like phrasing it.
Engine dowells in the REW are exactly the same. Only the casting is much better on the REW.
I agree with detonation something has to break, if its not the plate, itll be seal or something or another.
But the more parts that can be saved, the better really.
I have had more WI stop working due a stupid mistake i made with the car on 30psi. Flattened a few springs, plates housings and rotors all in excellent condition.
Could have been broken plates and may more things such broken mazda apex seals.(which obviously it didnt have mazda seals etc).
Anyways i think everyone has put forward their argument on dowelling, stud kit or neither and it is up to the engine builder/customer what they will do with their engine.
Engine dowells in the REW are exactly the same. Only the casting is much better on the REW.
I agree with detonation something has to break, if its not the plate, itll be seal or something or another.
But the more parts that can be saved, the better really.
I have had more WI stop working due a stupid mistake i made with the car on 30psi. Flattened a few springs, plates housings and rotors all in excellent condition.
Could have been broken plates and may more things such broken mazda apex seals.(which obviously it didnt have mazda seals etc).
Anyways i think everyone has put forward their argument on dowelling, stud kit or neither and it is up to the engine builder/customer what they will do with their engine.
02-14-09, 03:42 PM
#44
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"I always feel like, sombodies watching meeee"
Really though, thats good information to have. Thanks for helping to protect the community from fradulent poop.
So, Dowels=poop, what about stud kits? I meen, you get a more accurate reading off of a stud and as long as its not over torqued (Beyond factory specs) its should not cause any more stress than the oem bolts. There is of course the hardness factor of the studs but then again, if its not torqued beyond spec it should not put more pressure than the oems while giving a better seat/seal by accurately distibuting the clamping force across the plates/housings.
Really though, thats good information to have. Thanks for helping to protect the community from fradulent poop.
So, Dowels=poop, what about stud kits? I meen, you get a more accurate reading off of a stud and as long as its not over torqued (Beyond factory specs) its should not cause any more stress than the oem bolts. There is of course the hardness factor of the studs but then again, if its not torqued beyond spec it should not put more pressure than the oems while giving a better seat/seal by accurately distibuting the clamping force across the plates/housings.
02-14-09, 05:58 PM
#45
"I always feel like, sombodies watching meeee"
Really though, thats good information to have. Thanks for helping to protect the community from fradulent poop.
So, Dowels=poop, what about stud kits? I meen, you get a more accurate reading off of a stud and as long as its not over torqued (Beyond factory specs) its should not cause any more stress than the oem bolts. There is of course the hardness factor of the studs but then again, if its not torqued beyond spec it should not put more pressure than the oems while giving a better seat/seal by accurately distibuting the clamping force across the plates/housings.
Really though, thats good information to have. Thanks for helping to protect the community from fradulent poop.
So, Dowels=poop, what about stud kits? I meen, you get a more accurate reading off of a stud and as long as its not over torqued (Beyond factory specs) its should not cause any more stress than the oem bolts. There is of course the hardness factor of the studs but then again, if its not torqued beyond spec it should not put more pressure than the oems while giving a better seat/seal by accurately distibuting the clamping force across the plates/housings.
Better Seat/seal? More accurately distributing clamping force? How do you guys come up with this bullshit?
Stud kit is definitely a step backwards. It has shown to cause problems not normally seen engine non studded, non dowelled, dowelled engines.
So far i have not seen any side effects of dowelling an engine. Has anyone seen something that says dowelling can cause more problems? got some proof? some pics or something.
02-14-09, 08:08 PM
#46
BDC Motorsports
Better Seat/seal? More accurately distributing clamping force? How do you guys come up with this bullshit?
Stud kit is definitely a step backwards. It has shown to cause problems not normally seen engine non studded, non dowelled, dowelled engines.
So far i have not seen any side effects of dowelling an engine. Has anyone seen something that says dowelling can cause more problems? got some proof? some pics or something.
Stud kit is definitely a step backwards. It has shown to cause problems not normally seen engine non studded, non dowelled, dowelled engines.
So far i have not seen any side effects of dowelling an engine. Has anyone seen something that says dowelling can cause more problems? got some proof? some pics or something.
B
02-15-09, 05:55 PM
#49
BDC Motorsports
B
02-15-09, 07:17 PM
#50
If it were the case, then we would've already seen broken dowel lands on the lower corner dowel run but we don't. Everything takes place up at that top corner bout 45-50*BTDC.