rdahm

iTrader: (6)

Quick question. by luck, can or has the apex seal ever exited through the wastegate instead of killing the turbo blades? Just wondering.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I have seen it once before. I found the apex seal pieces stuck between the w/g valve and seat.
99% of the time the turbine wheel gets taken out though..

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Wishful thinking. The typical apex seal engine failure does not happen when you are not under load. Of course there may be someone out there that will claim their's spontaneous crumbled at idle. Let's put is this way, it will not happen on a good engine rebuild.

A turbine wheel may be able to survive a minor chipped seal, but not catastrophic failure.

If you are looking at buying a "what a bargain" used turbo set up, have the seller remove the turbine housing, while they are at it have them remove the compressor housings and inspect for stone chips. Just in case they liked to run without any filter.

Typical Turbine wheel after complete apex seal failure:

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

The oem turbine wheels are pretty frail and notorious for being damaged when apex seal pieces pass through them.

Bryan at BNR Supercars has told me that his upgraded twins have beefier, thicker cast turbine wheels which are more likely to survive encounters with foreign objects.

Morale of the story? Use water/meth injection to make sure you don't detonate

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Yes it can go out the WG doesn't happen often though, I have seen them actually mark up the inside of turbine housings and not damage the wheel itself.

Rich, I think BNR sold you a load of poop I've seen some pretty big turbine wheels damaged from apex seals. Though I'm sure technically speaking they are better than stock I bet your chance of less damage is minor.

Chris, I'm confused by your statement. If the car is not under load, the WG is not open, there is zero chance of it going out that route. If it is under load WG is open and flow is diverted it could potentially find it's way. Or am I not understanding you???? Not being argumentative just trying to clarify.

Excellent point by the way, I think all turbos sold used on this forum should be required to post turbine wheel pics. I've stated that in a few threads in the past.

Something I have found that makes a difference is WG runner placement for sure. On the older T3 style manifolds we made where the WG runner literally was a direct straight path from the exhaust port we saw almost a 50/50 on wether the turbine was hit. Once we changed that it became much harder for the seal to find its way out that route and more turbines (pretty much 95%) took the hit.

~S~

enzo250

I think you understood him correctly. He's wrong!!!

Under load the wastegate will be regulating boost, so it WILL BE OPEN.
Will the apex go out the wastegate, there's a chance and I have had it happen.

I have also had many turbine wheels get hit also. Will it ruin the wheel, not as you would think.

I have run many turbine wheels with "bite marks" and they perform just as good as when they were new. Only thing I can see happening is throwing off the balence a bit and ruining the bearings sooner but chances are you'll probably break another apex before you do that..
So don't think just cause you have a few bite marks that your turbo is trash.

BTW my current turbo has had a few seals go past it and it still goes 160mph.

enzo250

That's a good one..

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

I figured it was a little like russian roulette. I just realized that my previous stock twins were on when i blew a seal and they still ran great well after that. i only replaced them because they had a gasket go bad and i didnt want to disassemble them.

I really dont have the initiative to tear them apart, but i wonder if they ate the seal and kept on ticking.

Sean, i felt smart because i was looking at used kits and i pmd someone to show their exhaust wheel and sure enough, it ate a seal. :-D what a surprise that would have been for me. caveat emptor.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

I love this forum, there is always someone willing to "try" to pick the fly **** out of the pepper, even if there isn't any.

Point was engines don't throw apex seals at idle, allowing the chunks to casually exit the engine. It does not matter if the WG is closed or open, exhaust gas (and apex seal debris) is still directed at the turbine wheel (yes, even with the WG fully open). If all the gas were exiting the WG there would be nothing to turn the turbo. Now, the amount the WG is open (if at all) is greatly dependant on the level of boost you are attempting to push. Going for 25psi and having the engine detonate at 20psi and throw a seal doesn't allow the WG to open much, does it? Where are the apex seals going?..... straight to the turbine wheel.

I personally will not run a blown turbo nor will I install them on customers' cars, even if somone can still go 160mph and claim to be getting great boost out of shredded wheel.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I love colorful metaphores, You seem about as happy as a termite in a rock quarry!

Like I said... I wasn't looking to argue, I was asking you to clarify (not for me but others reading) because your statement made little if any sense as worded. I'd be surprised if anyone here thinks engines will casually blow at idle, and if it did it would be even less likely to leave via the WG since it's closed. So the way it was worded wasn't clear and certainly wouldn't apply to the question asked.

rdahm, good for you! And if you were referring to twins I'd say forget it chances are very slim indeed, again from what I've seen the biggest factor has been WG runner placement on determining your odds.

Enzo, I agree if it is minor they can be re-used as long as the customer is made aware of the issues and chooses to. Bent blades can even be brought back to like new with a little patience and a small adjustable wrench. I wouldn't re-use the one Chris posted, sometimes though you don't get a choice, the customer says I have no money right now just put it back on until I can afford it. At that point I just clean up the wheel and send them on their way!

As a side note, I'm sure enzo was more or less referring to what he is willing to get away with on his car. I have ran used rotor housings in my car, and on our drag cars. I wont rebuild customers engines with them. I'd rather lose the sale and have more than once.

~S~

turboR1

Ive had it happen before. This is what I collected inside my wastegate right before the valve not sure if any got past but it would have. Anyone notice that piece of seal spring in the pic

enzo250

Well you can think of it however you want.
Point was that it is possible and has happen to me and few people I know of. Seals don't always break into many pieces. Sometimes it's just one or two and there is a chance it can go out the wastegate. And that's all the OP really wanted to know.

And the other point about going 160 was a turbo is not garbage if it has a few scrapes/etc.
Sure it's easy to say it's no good now as it's no longer like new but being the "specialist" you claim to be you should know what you can and can't get away with. As Sean stated NOT everyone can afford to just buy everything new..

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

This is too funny. What happed to ?

You need to learn how to read. Being the "big shot tuner" you claim to be, you should know how exhaust flow and wastegates work.

Of course it is "possible" that the turbine "could" escape damage, it is just not very probable. It is also "possible" that someone "could" win the lottery,........ same rules apply, not very likely.

Take a look at post #3, it clearly states "A turbine wheel may be able to survive a minor chipped seal, but not catastrophic failure." Do I really need to explain in detail what catastrophic failure means? Or are you and Sean finally done looking for a flaw in my original statement?

Honestly, this has got to be one of the lamest back-peddle jobs I have seen in a while. If this were the case and you were not looking for an argument you would have explained what I meant to the greater masses. Instead of attempting to make out that I might not know what I am talking about. Really, it is you that is making "little to no sense". Do you really not understand that not ALL of the exhaust flow is diverted by the wastegate being open?

If the vehicle is already single turbo a replacement CHRA can be found pretty cheap, no need to run a damaged one. We have had numerous customers bring us used turbo kits purchased from this forum that were complete garbage when opened up, this is why I always tell people to request disassembled pictures before sending any money. Far too many people just look in the exhaust housing and say "wow, no damage", fact is 99% of the time it can't be seen without removing the turbine housing.

You and Sean can continue this thread however you like, but trying to convince people that it is OK to run damaged turbine turbos is just irresponsible. Giving people false hope that their turbine survived apex seal failure is just foolish. To actually argue for the rare occasion that it might actually happen instead of just admitting that you are "wrong!!!" is just childish. There is always someone that wants to fight to the death to defend the minutia of a percentage of probability.

Could all the chunks of apex seal miraculously avoid a turbine wheel during catastrophic failure, by passing through the wastegate? Sure they could (less than .01% of the time)

Had fun with this thread, but there really isn't anything more for me to add, you guys can continue on trying to prove me wrong though.

enzo250

whatever pal.. I don't claim to be anybody.. besides "el rookie"
But I can guarantee you that I know more about exhaust flow and wastegate function then you ever will.

The original question was if it's possible and the answer is YES. It has happened with me and a few other's i know and I would say that's more likely then winning the lotto.

Don't worry I won't be wasting anymore of my time arguing with you.

turboR1

Dam the way your speaking Mr Banzai I should go play the lottery. Did you not see the picture I posted above. Ive blown 2 motors when I had my gt35r the first caused slight i mean almost no damage to my turbo and it was a complete "catastrophic" failure since the motor was trash rotors housings and all. The second was the picture I posted. Same turbo and not a single mark on the wheel this time since the seal was completely on its way out of the WG which is where I found all of the pieces. Thats 1 out of 2 seems pretty likely dont you think?. Did your school not teach probabilities ? So far 50% chance not .01% like your trying to claim so no one is "trying" to prove you wrong your just wrong.

And this "would be" junk turbo after a catastropic failure still, later on, made the most horsepower anyone has out of a gt35r after being on two blown engines under severe load.(WOT 4th gear) Not saying all turbos will be okay after having some seals for breakfast but you can get lucky and nowhere as near impossible as your making it seem.

Yukitama

Lol, I have seen this more than once. An FD I know of went through 2 engines and never chip the turbine wheels with stock twins. Both engines also lost more than one apex seal.
It also happened on my own T04 car, I found the broken seal in the gate, so the chances of it going through the wastegate are pretty high. Especially running of the gate's spring straight since the wastegate starts cracking before peak boost.

turboR1

I had a T3 manifold similar to yours and guess what ? 50/50 chance too. I guess WG placement and whether its open plays a big part.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I totally missed all this fun stuff.


Back-peddle jobs?? Are you kidding?? not from you or any other on this board. You came back all pissy, if you noticed I didn't only respond to you. I never said you might not know what your talking about. I said either I am misunderstanding you or your not answering the question asked. (Obviously it turned out I wasn't the only one who thought so) Certainly not in a way the OP, who wouldn't have the level of knowledge you, enzo or I does would understand.(you could have said your misunderstanding me instead of coming back in full swing but since you did...) Who the hell would remotely think there is ANY chance that foreign material would go out the WG at idle?? NO-ONE that knows what a WG is that's who, so why say it. Your point about seals casually leaving the motor is pointless, even at idle it wouldn't just gently go towards the turbine. It would fly the hell out and go down the easiest path, on our old T3 short runners that was straight out the WG runner more often than not.

As I stated twice now, more so than just flow is involved, flow path as well makes a difference. I have seen it first hand (over and over), over the years that WG runner placement will play a bigger role on wether or not the turbine wheel has a higher probability of being struck or did you miss that both times I posted it.



I do this about twice a week if not more. Only makes sense!


Where do you come up with this??? Where did I say it's ok to run damaged turbos? Or did you miss the part about "I have no money please just put the car back together." Now if I were making the accusational arguments the way you're trying to here I would say something like, "I don't know about you chris but I don't just go putting new parts on peoples cars and just bill them without asking." Of course we know you don't do that, just like any halfwit with a brain on this forum knows I wont recommend running a blown turbo. Nice try though.

As for arguing the "rare occasion" or "giving false hope" the question was "if you blow your engine could the apex seal travel through the WG instead of turbo?" The answer is yes it is possible. By your way of thinking in this thread that must immediately mean Sean said don't bother checking everything is ok.


I'd say the percentage is based on WG placement more than your .01% guess. Not that I would know or anything I'm new to all this turbo turbine wizbangery stuff.


Don't flatter yourself, I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, but you sure did a smash up job of setting up straw men and saying a lot of nothing, as well as starting a pissing match with me for no reason.

~S~

Barry Bordes

I think limbar85's manifold would give you the best chance for spitting the apex seal through the waste gate.

Most other manifolds are trying to get a nice direct shot at the turbine wheel.

Barry