GTX vs EFR
01-30-11, 01:31 PM
#1
Tenseiga
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GTX vs EFR
I've been looking over my options.
I would like to upgrade the turbine housing on my turbonetics BB 62-1 wich is about 220 bucks.
So I have also been looking to upgrade turbos too (since it would include a new turbine housing).
I took some time and compared the two.
The only thing i could not find is the trim of the 74mm turbine wheel on the EFR.
I think the turbos are pretty damn close
I ran them both to 25psi and to 7k rpm (see plotted pics)
The BW is cheaper at 2k unless you have a GT35R turbine housing already.
The BOV and WG solenoid are added perks IMO but some people do not want them.
I'm just providing some info since I gathered it anyway.
I would like to upgrade the turbine housing on my turbonetics BB 62-1 wich is about 220 bucks.
So I have also been looking to upgrade turbos too (since it would include a new turbine housing).
I took some time and compared the two.
The only thing i could not find is the trim of the 74mm turbine wheel on the EFR.
I think the turbos are pretty damn close
I ran them both to 25psi and to 7k rpm (see plotted pics)
The BW is cheaper at 2k unless you have a GT35R turbine housing already.
The BOV and WG solenoid are added perks IMO but some people do not want them.
I'm just providing some info since I gathered it anyway.
Code:
GTX3582R 83S74 Compressor (Ext) 82mm 83mm Compressor (Ind) 61.4mm (calc) 62 Trim 56 55.8 (calc) lbs/min Max 76 79 Max Rotary RWHP 585 607 Turbine (Ind) 68 74 Turbine (Ext) 62.3 (calc) ? Trim 84 ? Flange T4 T4 Divided YES YES A/R 1.06 1.05 Plotted data points - Engine Speed rpm 2000 3000 4000 5000 6000 7000 Compressor Pressure Ratio ~ 1.5 1.71 2.14 2.5 2.79 2.8 Corrected Air Flow Rate lb/min 8.52 16.13 28.14 44.36 58.67 65.33 Boost Pressure (Gauge) psi 7 10 16 21 25 25 Data from the website on the EFR 74mm turbine wheel (sized to the attached pic) Turbine Match Outputs Exhaust Manifold Pressure psi 3.6 6.3 11.2 17.5 24.1 26.2 Engine Delta Pressure (dP) psi 3 4 5 4 1 -1 Turbine Corrected Flow lbs/min 13.6 19.9 25.6 28.3 29.2 29.3 WG Port Diameter Req mm 1 14 21 31 36 39
01-31-11, 11:49 AM
#2
great info! the 8374 looks like a mix of a GTX35 compressor with a P-trim exhaust, like the hybrids 3574 that seem to be better matched to rotaries but should spool better due to the lightweight gamma ti-al turbine wheel! too bad the 1.05 housing is not internally wastegated!
now we only need someone to actually put one to use in a 13B!
now we only need someone to actually put one to use in a 13B!
01-31-11, 01:19 PM
#4
Tenseiga
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I should note -
I ran them out to 25psi at 8k and they have no problems of course (75lbs/min+ is alot of air!). I just didn't post those plots.
these turbos will not run out of breath under 25psi on a rotary.
20+ is where these sing as u can see on the maps.
I like the 1.05 b/c it does not have built in WG (Perfer to keep the 50mm external).
If you look at the WG diameter requirement even on the 1.05 it's quite large so a step down would be interesteding.
I would recommend sizing it out online with lower temps and see the wg duty cycle and diameter turn out.
My only concern is the GTX and compressor surge. That plot was with a a 98% VE.
I'm not sure what real world vs data would show but seems like it has a hard time moving alot of air at low P/R due the high P/R design of the wheel.
I noticed that when i compared it to my 62-1 also.
Another concern is once one of these grenades do you end up with an expensive bookshelf end - especially with that new facny turbine.......
I ran them out to 25psi at 8k and they have no problems of course (75lbs/min+ is alot of air!). I just didn't post those plots.
these turbos will not run out of breath under 25psi on a rotary.
20+ is where these sing as u can see on the maps.
I like the 1.05 b/c it does not have built in WG (Perfer to keep the 50mm external).
If you look at the WG diameter requirement even on the 1.05 it's quite large so a step down would be interesteding.
I would recommend sizing it out online with lower temps and see the wg duty cycle and diameter turn out.
My only concern is the GTX and compressor surge. That plot was with a a 98% VE.
I'm not sure what real world vs data would show but seems like it has a hard time moving alot of air at low P/R due the high P/R design of the wheel.
I noticed that when i compared it to my 62-1 also.
Another concern is once one of these grenades do you end up with an expensive bookshelf end - especially with that new facny turbine.......
02-01-11, 07:51 AM
#5
They will both be shittiful
Also don't go dreaming that operating at the higher pressure ratios where the turbo is inside the compressor map will mean the charge is cooler. The net temperature rise will still be massive at 25psi compared to 15psi.
My next turbo is going to use either F1-65 or F1-68 turbine wheel. Check out the turbonetics serviceable ball bearing setup also!
Check out all the youtube movies showing they still spin for 30 seconds after an idle shutoff even tho they still use a journal bearing in the rear of the shaft. All the 'drag' on the journal bearing turbos is therefore from the thrust washer at the front of the turbo...
Bet you've never read that on the internet before.
Also don't go dreaming that operating at the higher pressure ratios where the turbo is inside the compressor map will mean the charge is cooler. The net temperature rise will still be massive at 25psi compared to 15psi.
My next turbo is going to use either F1-65 or F1-68 turbine wheel. Check out the turbonetics serviceable ball bearing setup also!
Check out all the youtube movies showing they still spin for 30 seconds after an idle shutoff even tho they still use a journal bearing in the rear of the shaft. All the 'drag' on the journal bearing turbos is therefore from the thrust washer at the front of the turbo...
Bet you've never read that on the internet before.
02-01-11, 07:56 AM
#7
Tenseiga
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Those flows were from VE 98-110 (I didn't go higher for my case since i'm non-street port)
Started off with lower VE of around 98 at 3k then peaked around 110 at 5.5k then gradually decreased.
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02-01-11, 08:00 AM
#8
Tenseiga
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I never said operating at higher pressure ratios would maintain a cool intake charge.
of course running higher pressure ratios are going to increase charge temps but it will happen on all turbos and the efficiency is just to what level they will increase tempratures.
But with AI I and a proper setup I do not feel 20-25psi is that big of a threat and If you want power your going to have to move a lot of air.
To do that you will be forced to run a higher pressure ratio and fight the increased charge temp.
02-03-11, 10:56 PM
#16
Arrogant Wankeler
GTX compressor is 62.5mm ind & 82.5mm exd, not the same size as a standard comp wheel.
The smaller models of GTX like the 35R (& GTX3076R) have nowhere near enough turbine for the compressor, both the GTX35R compressor and the 83mm borg warner will effectively outflow a T04Z while being lighter & more efficient.
If you had to have a garrett I would be looking at a GT37 turbine, probably the 84 trim to let the hotside breathe & keep up with what the compressor wants to push.
In which case the EFR is probably the better option as it comes with a bigger turbine off the shelf which is lighter.
The only downside with an EFR is that I would be shelling out for the blanking plate for the BOV & probably not use the solenoid that comes on the comp cover as it is a plastic solenoid mounted to a heater
The smaller models of GTX like the 35R (& GTX3076R) have nowhere near enough turbine for the compressor, both the GTX35R compressor and the 83mm borg warner will effectively outflow a T04Z while being lighter & more efficient.
If you had to have a garrett I would be looking at a GT37 turbine, probably the 84 trim to let the hotside breathe & keep up with what the compressor wants to push.
In which case the EFR is probably the better option as it comes with a bigger turbine off the shelf which is lighter.
The only downside with an EFR is that I would be shelling out for the blanking plate for the BOV & probably not use the solenoid that comes on the comp cover as it is a plastic solenoid mounted to a heater
02-04-11, 09:46 PM
#18
My mate owns 1jz- vvti engine.
His mate with same engine just had ball bearing stage3 w/ .82 rear housing and 55ish mm inducer T04E compressor wheel.
First turbo made shittifully low power. Ignoring his 420rwhp dyno sheets it was only doing 109mph down the quarter mile. My calculators were saying 124-126mph for that power and weight.
Anyway the first billet stage3 piece of ****, **** itself and was replaced with a gtx-3076r w/ 0.82 housing. His first impressions are it spools very slightly slower. Car feels just as strong. New dyno sheet is showing 30rwhp less.
This is less power at a given boost level than the discontinued for profits reasons legacy turbo.
Also remember all the setups around that size are claiming big numbers, can't back it up at the track and they are using pressures like 20psi boost and still getting nowhere.
His mate with same engine just had ball bearing stage3 w/ .82 rear housing and 55ish mm inducer T04E compressor wheel.
First turbo made shittifully low power. Ignoring his
420rwhp dyno sheets it was only doing 109mph down the quarter mile. My calculators were saying 124-126mph for that power and weight.Anyway the first billet stage3 piece of ****, **** itself and was replaced with a gtx-3076r w/ 0.82 housing. His first impressions are it spools very slightly slower. Car feels just as strong. New dyno sheet is showing 30rwhp less.
This is less power at a given boost level than the discontinued for profits reasons legacy turbo.
Also remember all the setups around that size are claiming big numbers, can't back it up at the track and they are using pressures like 20psi boost and still getting nowhere.
02-09-11, 03:23 PM
#19
The smaller models of GTX like the 35R (& GTX3076R) have nowhere near enough turbine for the compressor, both the GTX35R compressor and the 83mm borg warner will effectively outflow a T04Z while being lighter & more efficient.
In which case the EFR is probably the better option as it comes with a bigger turbine off the shelf which is lighter.
02-13-11, 06:25 AM
#20
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