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I think this is a unique slant on the 'what turbo . . . " theme - I've spent hours searching here and on the internet and can't find anything - so please bear with me.
I have a street-ported 13B REW with uprated seals etc in an RX8 that originally came with a T72. For various reasons I've binned the T72 and am starting afresh with a different turbo and ancillaries (exhaust manifold, downpipe, wastegate(s), intercooler, piping etc). I don't want to throw money at her, but at the same time I want to get the balance right - if I'm spending $3,000+ and god knows how many hours on sorting the cr@p systems (new engine cooling, charge air cooling, exhaust manifolds, wastegates, gauging, boost controller etc) I don't want to cripple her with an ill-fitted turbo to save $1,000.
I'm looking for 400 rwhp She'll be a second car for both road (say, 2,000m pa) and occasional track days (driving there, not trailered).
I already have a Greddy TD07S g25 17cm2 but have been able to find little on how it works out on a 13B REW in practice.
I've over-analysed my choices and welcome your views to give me second opinions. My choices are:
Greddy TD07S g25 17cm2 that I already have.
Garrett GT35 (I think GT3582R with 1.04 AR hot side)
Garrett GTX35 (I think GTX3582R with 1.04 AR hot side)
Something else
What do people think about the suitability of these turbos for my circumstances?
I've not spent much time considering the BW 3584 as BW are less popular here in the UK than Garrett (less spares & support, harder to sell on if I change) and are relatively expensive (+25% on US prices whereas Garrett prices are roughly the same).
400 rotary rwhp is 53 pounds per minute. you do not want to run the turbo at 100% so a 60 pound turbo would work well for you and provide the "balance" you want.
i suggest, given the Garrett/UK advantages, you go w the garden variety GT3582r. it puts out approx 60 pounds whereas the GTX can do about 73. water cooled and ball bearing is always a plus especially on track.
I think the rotary community has moved away from Greddy/Mitsubishi Heavy Industries' based turbos because of the very problem you are running into. There isn't a whole lot of information available for these turbos in English (4 cylinder platforms are a little different, as MHI based turbos are more common for them). The distribution network is weak for these larger frame MHI products.
That's why you're almost always going to get recommended something Garrett or BorgWarner based (even if BW stuff is more expensive in the UK). They're regularly releasing new products with compressor maps, customer support, and various configurations.
Go with the more expensive options if your budget can handle it, but ONLY if all your engine management is sorted out. No sense in having a nicer turbo and then cutting cost on tuning, wiring, sensor, etc. If you don't have the engine management right you will blow the engine or it will run like crap.
A TD07 25G with a 17cm^2 is a good sized turbo though. I think it will get the job done for what you want, although the biggest of the MHI turbos' compressor maps out there seem to be for the TD06 20G.
Borg warner s300 series are good bang for buck if you dont want to fork out for an EFR. The smallest is equal or better then a gt35r, both in spool and power output.
Yep. Well, from what iv read anyway.
There is a back to back dyno graph & thread floating around, (granted its on an EVO, not a rotary), Where a customer swapped out their GT35R for a BW S300 wanting better spool & transient response etc and the BW did just that.
The BW might do even better again on a rotary having a bigger hotside
edit; here's a couple of rotary dyno graphs comparing the two. Again very similar. The BW is at 13psi, and the GT35R was at 16psi.
GT35R, post# 371 of "dyno graphs" thread;
and BW S360 @ 13psi, post# 525 of "dyno grapsh thread"
Yep. Well, from what iv read anyway.
There is a back to back dyno graph & thread floating around, (granted its on an EVO, not a rotary), Where a customer swapped out their GT35R for a BW S300 wanting better spool & transient response etc and the BW did just that.
The BW might do even better again on a rotary having a bigger hotside
edit; here's a couple of rotary dyno graphs comparing the two. Again very similar. The BW is at 13psi, and the GT35R was at 16psi.
GT35R, post# 371 of "dyno graphs" thread;
and BW S360 @ 13psi, post# 525 of "dyno grapsh thread"
Hmm pretty impressive, and thanks for finding those graphs. I was going to run one of those but got talked out of it by a few different people because "its a truck turbo"
Im wondering how the s362 compare to turblown tdx61 - the other great alternative for the EFR pocket change challenged like myself.
Borg warner s300 series are good bang for buck if you dont want to fork out for an EFR. The smallest is equal or better then a gt35r, both in spool and power output.
An S360 is the smallest S300 available, and is the closest compressor wise to a GT35R. It however spools much slower.
On the upside it will make a lot more power than a GT35R above 18psi. It can make 525+rwhp at 25+psi.
An S360 fits a ported rotary engines powerband much better, as the turbine wheel s much bigger. Just like our TDX based turbochargers. Our TDX based turbochargers spool faster, and make more power than the S300 series turbochargers. Transient response is much sluggish compared to a GT35R however.
With the introduction of the SXE turbochargers, one should not even consider the standard S300 turbochargers anymore.
So the latest crop of turbos all flow more air for their size, is there anything on the market that flows 400rw rotary hp at 15psi but is smaller than traditional 61mm turbo yet has t4 divided options, rotary suited turbine wheel and efficient at 15psi and below????
So the latest crop of turbos all flow more air for their size, is there anything on the market that flows 400rw rotary hp at 15psi but is smaller than traditional 61mm turbo yet has t4 divided options, rotary suited turbine wheel and efficient at 15psi and below????
Or just get a 60-1 or gt35r..?
Only if you are willing to spend $2,000 and by smaller than 61mm turbo you mean spools faster.
Lol, i thought so. I wish i bought one back when the aud was near parity with the usd (its a buck forty atm!), but was still an unknown quantity on rotaries at the time, plus there were issues with supply and casting imperfections.
Still seems a bit overkill on a low-boost application though...
So the latest crop of turbos all flow more air for their size, is there anything on the market that flows 400rw rotary hp at 15psi but is smaller than traditional 61mm turbo yet has t4 divided options, rotary suited turbine wheel and efficient at 15psi and below????
Or just get a 60-1 or gt35r..?
Only if you are willing to spend $2,000 and by smaller than 61mm turbo you mean spools faster.
Because you just described the EFR 8374.
Actually, i think you (and everyone else) are right ^.
The tdx61 i have is beautifully linear to redline and makes full boost at a lowly 3500rpm as advertised.The only thing holding it back is the response - it takes a few seconds if there arent a lot of engine rpm on board or the turbo isnt already spinning - which i guess is pretty fn awesome for a conventional turbo of that size and the inertia involved in anything made of non-efr materials.
I guess i was just being a fussy bastard after the insta-boost of the old 58mm hybrid set up, but the more i drive it the less of an issue it is somehow - either the engine or the turbo or the driver are still breaking in or all of the above!?
Not really, the smaller ones (61.4mminducer & 83.47mm exducer) are more of a replacement to the good ol' S362 FMW (61.4mm inducer & 83.4mm exducer).
Would love to see something in the 59mm to 60mm inducer & 80mm to 83mm exducer) on the newer SXE lineup, or a hybrid between the cold side of the SX200sx FMW 57 and the hot side of the S362 FMW ( for those that cant afford the +$2k efr turbos)
I'm now almost certainly going to spend my money and go to a new turbo. My choice is now down to an EFR 8378 (around $3000 here with external wastegate), EFR 7060 ($2400 here) and 2 'developed for your specific needs' offerings from rotary specialists here in the UK, one an S300 series derivative and one a Turbonetics derivative both around the $1600 mark (I won't pass on build details as they may be trade secrets but you can guess the basics from the prices).
For a choice between 8374 or 7060 I feel I'm falling in the middle between them, the 7060 being cheaper with faster spool but probably a little on the low side for my aims, the 8374 having plenty of power but more expensive with slower spool.
09-05-15, 01:10 PM
for those that cant afford the +$2k efr turbos)