I have a 93 with t-88 set up. I'm putting in an EGT but don't know where I should put the probe on the manifold.

 

is your Manifold stainless steel/steel or cast iron?

 

it is stainlees steel

 

Dual EGT sensors. One per exhaust port.

 

If you put it in the exhaust manifold, you are going to get VERY high readings... so high that most gauges won't read them. I recommend putting it 6-8 inches back on the downpipe, after the turbo exhaust outlet.

The main problem with my setup was that where it was placed, it read 1300 at idle, and then under hard acceleration, went nearly off the gauge of the face.

What kind of gauge are you using?

 

Rotary engine's WILL read hotter than piston engine's. You should have it tuned to approximately 900 degrees Celsius in 3rd Gear at Redline.

If you put it on the downpipe, it will read slower, and the reading will be less, thus giving you an inaccurate reading.

The best place IS the manifold. However, from personal experience, it's best to place it AFTER the turbine wheel. The reason for this is because certain brands of exhaust temp(a'pexi) have been known to break off. If it were to break off BEFORE the turbine, then the sensor would hit the exhaust wheel and might cause some MAJOR damage.

I have mine right after the turbine wheel. That way, it's as accurate AND as safe as possible.

 

my EGT is an auto meter that reads up to 1600 degrees. Would it be ok to place it in my manifold in the wastegate tube? I just want it in a place where I'll get a good reading and quick response.

 

I have the Greddy EGT and EGT probe. It is plumbed in the rear runner on the stainless steel HKS exhaust manifold.

I read about 850C on cruise (with about 13.7 A/R on the wideband display) and still tuning to keep it around 900C to 920C for WOT with boost controller set to 0.9 BAR.

J

 

The autometer gauges are so slow by the time you read it, the damage will be done. If you really want an idea for where you are, you can put the probe in the down pipe around 6 inches from the turbo exhaust housing. The autometer datalogging egt system is faster and more accurate and you can put the sensors in the exhaust maniflod for individual chamber readings.

 

Isn't there a ton of heat lost in the turbine itself due to the pressure drop? I'm thinking that the temps will be TONS lower immediately after the turbine, compared to immediately before.

 

It doesn't matter, 1cm off and you are going to read a different temp. You have to use it in conjunction with an Air Fuel ratio gauge, preferably hooked up to a wideband o2 sensor to see what YOUR temps should be.

EGT is a poor way to tune your engine... its just a precautionary gauge in my book.

Saying that it should be 900 degrees at redline, whatever dude, it totally depends on where you put it. Quicker readings will come from the manifold, but there is no way in hell I'm going to put a probe prior to the exhaust wheel that will surely break off and damage something.

EGTs suck for tuning. Get a wideband... then your EGT will mean something other than "Oh, now I'm running 1400 degrees. Wonder what that means?"

 

Found a nice HIGH temp gauge:

http://www.off-road.com/snowmobile/r.../pyro2001.html

http://www.hoytmeter.com/PyroLookup/PyroLookup.html

"The Pyro 2000 will read both cylinders and ranges from 0°F to 1900°F. There are no modes you can select, just view the current readings. Those of you that only want the basics, this gauge is for you and it is a lot more informative than a standard OEM temp gauge."

 

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say.&nbsp I can street-tune Haltechs with an EGT and a simple AFR gauge.&nbsp People who make ignorant comments like this have no clue how to use an EGT gauge properly, and wide-bands ends up being the end-all crutch for tuning.&nbsp So tell me, how do you tell the difference between a rich condition versus an overly retarded condition with a wide-band?


If crap is flying around before the turbo, what do you think this crap is going to do to the turbine section of your turbo?&nbsp If you are worried about something hitting the EGT probe, you got bigger problems to worry about than a dead EGT probe...


Hmmm...maybe we should ask you how many cars have you tuned?&nbsp How have you tuned them?&nbsp Can you answer the question above of rich versus retarded timing?&nbsp You're spewing a lot of crap which are totally false.&nbsp You're making a lot of conclusions which I'd like you to back up in why you're saying them.&nbsp Are you regurgitating information taking from a third-party?&nbsp To ba making such statements as "EGTs suck for tuning" is just downright stupid...



-Ted

 

i completly agree with reted and jspecmy egt (greddy) is extremely accurate and in the actual exhaust housing of the turbine, the closer the better!

 

Dude, you sound like HWO.

Street tuning with an EGT is unacceptable to me. Street tuning with a 1v o2 sensor is unacceptable to me. Using two unacceptable tuning practices doesn't make it ok. Two wrongs don't make a right

I never said I was king **** of **** mountain with tuning cars, but to say that my comments are ignorant? Give me a ******* break. Ignorant means uninformed. If I was uninformed, I wouldn't be able to reply to this and make sense... your comments were ignorant.

The part about the exhaust probe going through the turbine... its obvious that you just skimmed my post from your response... go back and read it this time. You missed the point.

But, to stay on topic, I've only tuned my car, and helped with a couple of other non-rotary machines. You have to start somewhere and sometime... you have to choose who to listen to and who to tune out... Rice Racing, Hitman, Crispeed, Rotary777... they are the ones that I listen to. They are the ones who's advice I have put to use on my own. YOU didn't learn everything there is to know about rotaries on your own. They are the ones that have explained time and time again how tuning with a wideband is the ONLY way to tune a car... and yes, I agree.... especially with an engine who's Kryptonite is detonation like the turbo charged rotary. These are the "legends" in my book, and I will refuse to just go off of net wisdom, if you can call it wisdom

My tuning was actually adjusting a super rich map that a "professional" had tuned with a 1v o2 sensor and an autometer 1600 F EGT. Guess what happened? Yep. Yer right.

I'm not saying that no one will drop big coin on a decent EGT gauge, but most people won't. I didn't. Even if I had, it wouldn't have made a difference, I cracked a rear housing (my guess is to running too hot of plugs on the trailing, but who knows).

I'm not taking any shortcuts from now on. Wideband on the shelf, J&S ready to be installed, new EGT on the way, and BDC is gonna help me tune it... I think I'll be ok.

Ted, you have a lot to share with the RX7 community, and you usually (most of the time) have VERY good insight and information to post... but when you come across like this, man, I dunno if I'm the only one that feels this way, but you just lost 5 cool points in my book. Keep the good info coming, but slamming someone because they have a difference in opinion is uncalled for.

Regards,
Nick

p.s. I still think EGT is a precautionary gauge, and I've yet to see proof or even a bad explanation of why it isn't.

 

That's right - just because you weren't successful with this procedure doesn't mean it doesn't work.&nbsp Making an assumption with such a narrow case like yours is just plain stupid.


Ignorance is excused if your'e asking a question.&nbsp Claiming ignorance while coming to a conclusion with "strong langauge" is stupid.&nbsp You took history?&nbsp Remember anything about the eart being flat until a certain gentleman proved otherwise?&nbsp It made all the other "authorities" look stupid.


I'll quote it for you: "...but there is no way in hell I'm going to put a probe prior to the exhaust wheel that will surely break off and damage something."

If you don't have the faith in your equipment, high performance is not for you.&nbsp I have never heard of anyone "breaking" an EGT probe (on street use).


That's right - include my own experience with the car, books, and SAE papers...

Maybe you should back to those "legends" and ask them what I asked you about retarded ignition versus overly rich conditions.&nbsp I guess I can put you in the category of "regurgitating information", as you've obviously have made your position clear that you're taking experiences from others versus trying them yourself.&nbsp What you're descibing is not "wisdom"; Merriam Webster dictionary defines wisdom as "good sense."&nbsp What you're doing is blindly accepting experiences which you have no countered.&nbsp "Wisdom" is being able to challenge the accepted beliefs and make a conclusion of your own due to your direct experiences.&nbsp What you're doing is "regurgitating information."


Who was this "professional"?&nbsp I've seen a "professional" blow up a 13B-REW with a 60-1 Turbonetics BB with a HORIBA LAMBDA wide-band on a DynoJet cause the Horiba showed it was rich, but the J&S Safeguard retarded the ignition so much that it blew everything up.


Ignorance is bliss...


I never said the EGT was a short-cut, nor is it the end-all solution for tuning.&bnsp You need to comprehend what I'm saying.&nbsp I'm am arguing your statement about EGT's are a waste of time.

Use of the J&S already shows me that you have no clue what you're doing...


I don't come on here to make friends.&nbsp I don't give a damn if you like me or not.&nbsp I am here to share my experiences, whether you like them or not, not to be your buddy.&nbsp I am arguing that what you said is wrong - if you got a problem with people telling you're wrong than that's your problem.

Stick with the thread - so can you ANSWER my QUESTION:&nbsp what is the difference between a retarded ignition OR overly rich condition???


You've already made your point about not being about to comprehend my replies and stick with the thread.&nbsp I'd be repeating myself, which is a waste of time.&nbsp This is not a kindergarten class where repetition will drive in a point - I'm assuming you at least graduated high school...



-Ted

 

Insults will get you know where danielson.

Why reinvent the wheel and blow up "my share" of engines when I can listen to experts who have been there, and done that. I'm not skirting around the topic... the topic was "EGT Location". I stated MY preference and opinion... you state yours as fact. I've yet to see you prove anything other than you spend too long piecing together replies and have become a master of the "Quote" ubb tag.

The RX7 community is such an underdog in todays society, we certainly don't need ***-clown like posts from you flaming someone for posting an opinion.

I regurgitate nothing. Sounds to me like you've done your share of regurgitating... talking about the Earth being flat. Have you sailed the Earth's circumference? Just because you haven't done it first hand doesn't make it False.

The statement about the J&S that you made about it proving that I don't know what I'm doing... sound like regurgitation to me. Anything that will save my engine is OK in my book. You CAN get a bad tank of gas... You CAN loose a wastegate line and detonate, you CAN do a number of things that 100% tuning couldn't save your engine. Its called a Safeguard for a reason. True, you SHOULDN"T need one... or rely on one, but if a product exists to cut timing in order to save my engine, let me at it.

"Ignorance is bliss" You just love this **** don't you? There is no reason to take things personally or, or make them personal on this Forum... it just makes you look immature... which you have proven with your statement about not caring about making friends... Its not about making friends, its about knowledge transfer... which you make impossible by labeling everything but your own OPINION as false or incorrect.

You have a lot of experience, I just wish I could read your posts without making my blood curdle when you knock peoples opinion. True, there is a lot of **** being passed around as fact... but, its not your place, as far as I'm concerned, to knock everyones thoughts and opinions... adding contructive criticism is a good thing. Flaming someone and calling them ignorant is uncalled for.

 

Stop putting words into my mouth - you stated your opinion; I stated my counter opinion.

Uh, okay...


I could say the same thing about you.&nbsp I still don't hear a response from you about the overly rich versus retarded ignition question - your "sources" not telling you anything?&nbsp Never asked them?&nbsp I assume at this point you have no clue...

Opinion are like ******** - everyone has one...

Cute, but pretty extreme - this can go on about the moon being physically present, or the nearest galaxy being Alpha-Centauri...

Do you even know how a J&S works?&nbsp I put $100 that says you have no clue...&nbsp I have one running; yes, I installed it myself.&nbsp Can you say the same for yourself?


To me, the J&S is an overpriced knock sensor display - a <$200 MSD unit will do the same thing on a rotary engine.&nbsp Do you know why?&nbsp It seems that you think you know a lot more than I do, why don't you explain to everyone else why this is so?

Can you just keep the vulgarity out of this?&nbsp Can you keep a decent conversation without using expletives?


Those are your opinions...&nbsp If you haven't gotten the comprehension down yet, once again just for you - I'm not here to MAKE FRIENDS.&nbsp I'm not here to look MATURE.&nbsp I'm not here to CARE for your butt or anyone else.&nbsp If you're looking for a reason, I am here to share my experiences in the light that it might help someone - do you understand that?&nbsp How you take my opinions and posts is up to you.&nbsp I don't know why you even bother to reply?&nbsp Your delicate ego can't drop the thread?

Boy, "labeling everything...incorrect" - you do have a way with words.


It sure sounds like I stepped on your toes...
I am not your buddy, and I am no here to console your delicate ego.
Until someone kicks my *** off this forum (I KNOW there are moderators that want to), I have an opition to display my opinions on threads.&nbsp If you have a problems with that, go talk to the moderators or the owners.
Recap...&nbsp Your opinion on an EGT gauge was that it had no use for tuning, short of being a pre-warn system.&nbsp If I get anything wrong, please feel free to correct me at any time.&nbsp I countered, claiming your opinion is wrong - I brought up the scenario about how a wide-band can tell the difference between overly rich versus retraded timing.&nbsp Up to this point, you have STILL not answered this question.&nbsp Now it has turned into a bitchfest about my attitude, which has done nothing contructive to the use of this thread and to others, short of explain, in detail, about your dislike about me..

I am still waiting for the answer about how a wide-band knows the difference between overly rich and retarded ignition...



-Ted

 

Just tested this one on the dyno,
A reduction in total ignition timing of 10deg. from total 17 at 18psi down to 7deg increased EGT by 130deg yet only achange of .2 of an AFR lower (from 11.4to11.2). To achieve this change in EGT using fuel on its own would break the engine. One exception in Australia is that an AFR has full temp compensation and can compensate for most changes. As extra security we mostly measure AFR at rear of exhaust where temp is not as much of an issue. So I guess the answer to your question is WHEN IT IS A GOOD ONE AND NOT A CHEAP HOME MADE PIECE OF GARBAGE! Now before you go into meltdown over Microtech products (AFR). I use the Autronics unit that comes with my dyno.
As an answer to the other question, I must agree with ReTed in stating that a correct EGT gauge is a very important tool for tuning. My personal method was to achieve maximum hp on the dyno using AFR and then matching the same EGT at the track in real life conditions. Never proved me wrong, GOOD EGT=GOOD MPH.
Sorry to drag on but I had lost two turbochargers to GREDDY egt probes when I moved it behind the turbo. It was nowhere near as accurate but told me the right things anyway. I found a drop of about 150c.
The two of you are correct in what you are saying, however they are being said in different ways.
Regards-Anthony

 

No, you countered by stating that I was ignorant. Big difference. I'm not one to bitch to a mod because of one know-it all... I have thick skin, just don't understand why you would make it a point to have people not like you.

I told you of my tuning experiences.... I told you I wasn't claiming to be an expert tuner.... but, yet you keep persisting in asking questions that had nothing to do with the thread topic. Obviously, the egt is going to change drastically when tuning timing... while AFR stays the same. Why the hell do you need me to explain THAT to you.

I don't understand why its not ok to "regurgitate" certain performance information, but you seemed to have left my comment about "proving the earth was round" alone. Wait, I do know... it made sense... heaven forbid that you be wrong.

Anthony, thank you for your INFORMED response. Thank you for actually providing NUMBERS. Thank you for for giving a mature reply.

Now that Anthony has actually proved something... actually shown first hand experience (as Ted would put it), I think think this thread is about over.

Ted, you are a different person when chatting online... but then you put up this front on the forum. Too bad...

 

I think kurgan knows that EGT is a good tool for tuning in conjunction with a wideband..

How else could you make sure your timming is not to far advanced. (Creating VERY hot EGTs)


But i think his point is EGT gauges are very slow and inaccurate, and to use EGT and 1v O2 sensors is not very safe, or wise.



And blanket statements like tune for 900* C is idiotic.. Depending on where the sensor is.. and what brand. 900* could be totally too hot.


-Zach

 

BTW you did noticed he was buying a better one right? he is ditching his autometer one.

-Zach

 

Kurgan got owned

 

Go back to AOL.

 

So what's wrong with that?&nbsp You were WRONG...were you?

Your point is all relative.&nbsp For every person (like you) who hates my guts, I've got another person who thanks me for helping them with their FC problems.&nbsp I learned this a long time ago - you can't make all the people happy all of the time.&nbsp I am going to run into people who will have a "clash of personalities" - I make no excuse for my bahavior; I blame it on "clash of personalities".


Maybe you need to reread the whole thread - I'll quote is just for you:&nbsp "EGTs suck for tuning."
This is why I jumped all over you.&nbsp I think you have a big PROBLEM with that.&nbsp IMO, this was an ignorant thing to say - it implies you obviously have no grasp of what and EGT does or it's importance.&nbsp I didn't change the track of the original thread - you're right - I replied to one of your statements.&nbsp So call me guilty on that count.


I never said it was bad to do so.&nbsp You used some names that have very heavy reputations.&nbsp You know what...I bet all of them would back me up on the EGT.&nbsp Which means you were throwing comments out and ASSUMING those people who back your statements up.&nbsp This is why I jumped all over you when you brought that point up.


See previous response...

There's a reason why I jumped all over you.&nbsp I mentioned it a few posts back about the 13B-REW an the Horiba Lambda.&nbsp The Horiba Lambda is one of the BEST UEGO systems out there on the market, short of being a lab-grade rack-mount electronics.&nbsp The J&S was triggered retarding timing back 20-degrees of the leadings (only).&nbsp There was obvious detonation noises, but the Dyno "expert" told the owner to keep flooring it.&nbsp His Horiba showed FULL RICH, so of course it was "safe"...the motor shortly blew after.&nbsp We tore this motor down, and it was the first time I've seen detonation DENT a rotor face.&nbsp The Horiba showed it was "safe".&nbsp An EGT would've showed otherwise.&nbsp This is an extreme case, but this is also a good case where the wide-band did not show anything wrong.&nbsp A good ear would've easily heard the detonation, but too much trust of the wide-band caused the engine damage.&nbsp I want to warn people that the wide-band isn't the end-all to tuning and engine.&nbsp "Newbies" can easily get away with wide-band tuning, because it's a matter of shooting for a specific number (i.e. AFR); more experienced tuners can tune with an EGT though experience.&nbsp I don't want people relying on ANY O2 sensor - engine damage is possible without the wide-band even flinching.

Sorry to disappoint you Kurgan, this was nothing personal - it was all about warning people that a wide-band is not the absolute authority when tuning engines and AFR...



-Ted