EFR internal wastegate turbos
01-03-14, 11:55 PM
#1
EFR internal wastegate turbos
has anyone used one of the EFR internal wastegate turbos yet?
i would love to switch to a simple IWG setup (i am running dual 38mm MVS gates with water lines right now, recirc'd into the downpipe) really just to simplify...
i would love to switch to a simple IWG setup (i am running dual 38mm MVS gates with water lines right now, recirc'd into the downpipe) really just to simplify...
01-05-14, 03:11 AM
#4
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a few fd's are IWG, but no one is sharing anything yet 
. On the last page of single turbo setup one of the guys is running an IWG, but I think he isn't quite finished. I'm curious as well and hope to hear good things.
. On the last page of single turbo setup one of the guys is running an IWG, but I think he isn't quite finished. I'm curious as well and hope to hear good things.
01-07-14, 04:30 PM
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I'm still building this turbo set up but thought this might help at least with fitment questions, I'm running the EFR 7064 IWG'ed with EFR 8374 wastegate bracket on a Full Race manifold (custom made, they used my car as the test bed for the manifold) so if you have any questions just ask.
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01-09-14, 08:08 PM
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I'm still building this turbo set up but thought this might help at least with fitment questions, I'm running the EFR 7064 IWG'ed with EFR 8374 wastegate bracket on a Full Race manifold (custom made, they used my car as the test bed for the manifold) so if you have any questions just ask.
Why run such a small turbo? 8374 is probably the smallest turbo that I'd run with a 13BREW, the response and spool should be amazing..
01-10-14, 10:36 AM
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Talking with Jeremy from Full Race with this A/R I should be good for around 450 hp out of the turbo. Had I gone with the EWG 1.05 A/R I would've been good for around 600 mark I think.
01-10-14, 12:16 PM
#11
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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BW EFR 7670 COMPRESSOR MAP
there is a natural tendency to look at the eastmost line for max delivery. in the case of a number of BW maps the plots end at 65%. most Garretts end at 60%. lets look for a 60% delivery number. that would be further east. how far? hard to say BUT note the RPM lines. when they go vertical that means the turbo is maxed out.
let's assume you like many rotary guys will run 20 psi max. that is 2.36 pressure ratios. find 2.36 on the Y scale and extend it all the way til it hits the (pretty much vertical) RPM line.
that'd be 61 pounds per minute which is max flow at 20 psi.
61 X 14.471 = 883 CFM / 1.92 = 459 SAE rotary rwhp
based on the RPM plot max flow on the turbo, at an undisclosed efficiency, is 65 pounds.
65 X 14.471 = 940 CFM / 1.92 = 490 SAE rotary rwhp
yes, 65 pounds flow on a piston engine is 600 hp but not on a rotary. 490 is tops.
the turbo compressor wheel IS quite productive for its size.
BW EFR 7670 5.524 average sq inch area
GT35 6.386
howard
there is a natural tendency to look at the eastmost line for max delivery. in the case of a number of BW maps the plots end at 65%. most Garretts end at 60%. lets look for a 60% delivery number. that would be further east. how far? hard to say BUT note the RPM lines. when they go vertical that means the turbo is maxed out.
let's assume you like many rotary guys will run 20 psi max. that is 2.36 pressure ratios. find 2.36 on the Y scale and extend it all the way til it hits the (pretty much vertical) RPM line.
that'd be 61 pounds per minute which is max flow at 20 psi.
61 X 14.471 = 883 CFM / 1.92 = 459 SAE rotary rwhp
based on the RPM plot max flow on the turbo, at an undisclosed efficiency, is 65 pounds.
65 X 14.471 = 940 CFM / 1.92 = 490 SAE rotary rwhp
yes, 65 pounds flow on a piston engine is 600 hp but not on a rotary. 490 is tops.
the turbo compressor wheel IS quite productive for its size.
BW EFR 7670 5.524 average sq inch area
GT35 6.386
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-10-14 at 04:11 PM.
01-10-14, 01:24 PM
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there is a natural tendency to look at the eastmost line for max delivery. in the case of a number of BW maps the plots end at 65%. most Garretts end at 60%. lets look for a 60% delivery number. that would be further east. how far? hard to say BUT note the RPM lines. when they go vertical that means the turbo is maxed out.
let's assume you like many rotary guys will run 20 psi max. that is 2.36 pressure ratios. find 2.36 on the Y scale and extend it all the way til it hits the (pretty much vertical) RPM line.
that'd be 61 pounds per minute which is max flow at 20 psi.
61 X 14.471 = 883 CFM / 1.92 = 459 SAE rotary rwhp
based on the RPM plot max flow on the turbo, at an undisclosed efficiency, is 65 pounds.
65 X 14.471 = 940 CFM / 1.92 = 490 SAE rotary rwhp
yes, 65 pounds flow on a piston engine is 600 hp but not on a rotary. 490 is tops.
the turbo compressor wheel IS quite productive for its size.
BW EFR 7670 5.524 average sq inch area
GT35 6.386
howard
01-10-14, 01:54 PM
#13
all the compressor info is great, and i appreciate it, but i'm more concerned with the internal wastegate.
i'd like to run the EFR 8374 IWG, and i'm wondering if that internal gate is going to flow enough on a rotary. i cannot find any info on this.
i'd like to run the EFR 8374 IWG, and i'm wondering if that internal gate is going to flow enough on a rotary. i cannot find any info on this.
01-10-14, 02:42 PM
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With that small a turbo, you'll really suffer where the 13B is suppose to shine, in the higher rpm/boost range. It's all about the trade off, I'm sure the response is insane with the 7064, but limited up top. I have a feeling that you'll at least upgrade to a 7670 later..
01-10-14, 03:20 PM
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With that small a turbo, you'll really suffer where the 13B is suppose to shine, in the higher rpm/boost range. It's all about the trade off, I'm sure the response is insane with the 7064, but limited up top. I have a feeling that you'll at least upgrade to a 7670 later..
01-10-14, 04:07 PM
#16
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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" I'm running the EFR 7064"
i thought you were running the 7670... post 11 Compressor Map is the 7670 turbo.
post 8 becomes more significant...
"Why run such a small turbo?"
the 7064 is small... featuring a 4.632 sq inch compressor.
compressor map shows 52 pounds per minute tops at 20 psi 392 hp and that is at the wall rpm-wise. if you look at the efficiency islands you will see that the 52 is probably a long way from the 60% acreage. meaning in the real world you won't see anything close to 392 at 20 psi.
absolute max on the turbo (33 psi) is 55 pounds or 414 rotary rwhp.
do keep in mind when most turbo outfits quote hp for a given turbo they are probably talking PISTON hp. you need to divide that by 1.3 to get rotary hp.
EFR 7064 Map
i thought you were running the 7670... post 11 Compressor Map is the 7670 turbo.
post 8 becomes more significant...
"Why run such a small turbo?"
the 7064 is small... featuring a 4.632 sq inch compressor.
compressor map shows 52 pounds per minute tops at 20 psi 392 hp and that is at the wall rpm-wise. if you look at the efficiency islands you will see that the 52 is probably a long way from the 60% acreage. meaning in the real world you won't see anything close to 392 at 20 psi.
absolute max on the turbo (33 psi) is 55 pounds or 414 rotary rwhp.
do keep in mind when most turbo outfits quote hp for a given turbo they are probably talking PISTON hp. you need to divide that by 1.3 to get rotary hp.
EFR 7064 Map
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-11-14 at 09:04 AM.
01-10-14, 04:14 PM
#17
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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Jacob, sorry don't have any info in the internal WG. my guess is that Geoff would be the best info source. i do feel that BW probably properly sized it as they are pretty good at engineering.
is there a reason that a rotary engine would have diff WG requirements V a piston?
howard
is there a reason that a rotary engine would have diff WG requirements V a piston?
howard
01-10-14, 09:31 PM
#19
Rotary engines have very high corrected mass flow through the turbine section due to high exhaust temperatures and general ability to move air. It takes a lot of wastegate to keep from overspeeding.
The 2nd gen Rx-7 turbo engines had a twin scroll turbo with internal wastegate drawing exhaust from both scrolls. It was very ahead of its time. It wasn't as optimized as modern twin scroll internally gated turbos because they didn't have the same computer simulation tools we have available now.
The 2nd gen Rx-7 turbo engines had a twin scroll turbo with internal wastegate drawing exhaust from both scrolls. It was very ahead of its time. It wasn't as optimized as modern twin scroll internally gated turbos because they didn't have the same computer simulation tools we have available now.
01-11-14, 06:53 AM
#21
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hey az93fd.... no dis-respect to you. i felt it was important to set forth the turbo metrics so that everyone reading this thread would have the info and could make their choice. i can understand your objectives and you have a very efficient 21st century turbo. do keep us in the loop. also, you have probably one of the first internal wastegated manifolds which will be interesting. thanks for taking the time post your pics.
hc
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-11-14 at 06:57 AM.
01-11-14, 08:01 AM
#22
Personally I am very grateful that you are posting your setup and details. It looks like it's going to be a great example of what the smaller version of these turbos are capable of, so kudos for thinking outside the box. I'm sure on the larger wheel turbos we will eventually have multiple examples of how they perform, but yours may remain unique, and provide valuable info. Please post back about how things work out for you once your car is done.
01-11-14, 01:06 PM
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Personally I am very grateful that you are posting your setup and details. It looks like it's going to be a great example of what the smaller version of these turbos are capable of, so kudos for thinking outside the box. I'm sure on the larger wheel turbos we will eventually have multiple examples of how they perform, but yours may remain unique, and provide valuable info. Please post back about how things work out for you once your car is done.
