jimmyv13

What coatings, if any, has everyone done to their parts? I recently had my intake manis powdercoated and decided I will go ahead have my exhaust parts done. I am researching the different types of coating available and which ones have performed well. I have sent my exhaust manifold to be ceramic coated, but is on hold at the moment until I figure out if I should go with something a bit better than ceramic....or if is ceramic good enough. Ceramic coating is running me $50 including shipping. If ceramic coating will hold up fine, I'll just get all of my stuff done at the same time and be done with it.

1revvin7 from teamfc3s suggests coating the inside and outside of the parts. Can ceramic coatings be applied to the inside of manifolds, pipes, and turbine housings? Is there ever a chance of this stuff flaking from the heat and getting sucked into the turbine blades?

I'm thinking about also wrapping my DP and a heat shield around my turbine housing to help keeps the underhood temps as low as possible.

Any suggestions are welcome...

BDC

There's a place here locally that does ceramic coating. We've got all of our intercooler piping and manifolds done by this guy and we like the work alot. He's very good. His name is Mike and here's his info: Performance Coating Specialtes (817) 274-1947

B

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Brain from past discussions we have had you mentioned you do a lot of data acquistion, correct? Why don't you have me do one of your customer's turbo setups, and you will see for yourself how well my coatings work. I'll give you a large price break if you are willing to do a side by side comparison, IE: you send me one of your customer's setups that has been coated, and that you have collected data on. The numbers won't lie, I know its hard to believe anyone tring to sell something.

Smilodon

good idea. How about internally and externally coated, and polished to a mirror sheen versus natural texture? (before coating)

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

The only reason my manifolds, turbine housings, and downpipes are even coated on the outside is because they are dipped in a slurry to ensure every unseen bend gets coated. The vast majority rejecting heat is done on the inside of the application. Doing anything on the outside does not do much for performance, its mainly a selling gimmick. And you do not want to contain the heat in the metal(outside coating only) you will fatique the application quicker.
About the polishing surface: You want the surface to be completly clean and rough before applying coatings. A nasa clean room is used, hot vapor degreasing, ultrasonic cleaning etc to prep the parts. There is a reason it cost a lot.
I also guarnatee this stuff will not flake off, I have done several high hp motors with some of these and after many hard miles, even race engines, they are still there. I have had great success latly doing some of the rx7 motors with these synthetic coatings.

jimmyv13

Are you doing the coating yourself or are you shipping it out to have it done?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

They are done here in the shop.

Timdog1650

www.swaintech.com are simply fantastic. Big difference in heat retention...

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

If everything goes to play I will have a side by side comparison here in the next 3/4 weeks.
Numbers will be off an Evo8 that has the intake and exhaust manifolds, along with the turbine housing and the downpipe. I'm going to also see if they will go for doing the turbine wheel also.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

jimmy,

I had a shop down in Texas do coatings and polishings for my parts:

http://mahjik.homestead.com/files/FD...6/DSCF0417.jpg

http://www.AutoSoundArlington.com

AutoSound & Security
Attn: Anthony Bulger
2826 S. Cooper Street
Arlington, TX 76015

He's on this forum by the user name of "DFW RX-7 Cook". I had also bought a coated FD stock twin exhaust manifold that he did for someone else on the forum.

He does about every type of coating you can think of....

As far as coating the outsides, depending on the the part, my goal is to also help resist soaking up heat.

saxyman990

I have a few things ceramic coated inside and out. The intake manifolds (UIM and LIM) are both coated with the standard 1300 degree "chrome-like" coating. The exhaust manifold, DP and MP are all coated in a 2000 degree black coating. They are all holding up great, and I'm extremely happy with them.

NOTE: if you coat any of the exhaust parts, BE SURE to use an extremely high temp coating. The standard chrome-like ceramic coating is only rated to 1200-1300 degrees (depending on where you get it done), and it WILL NOT last on a rotary. That's why I stepped up to the 2000 degree coating for those parts. Also note, that the higher temp coatings are usually only available in black or other dark colors. I also do not recommend ceramic coating the turbine housings (in or out). Many people have had the coating flake off on turbine housings in the past (even while using the extremely high-temp coatings).

-Rob

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

The coatings I offer don't even cure until stoichiometric temperatures, 5-6000 degrees F. If you were to melt/"flake" off these coatings, you would be have melted the entire coated application...

Turbo23

iTrader: (4)

how much would you chagre to do a exhaust manfiold?

saxyman990

1Revvin7 - please note that what I posted is based on my own personal knowledge (in addition to that of respected forum members) of the "common" types of ceramic coating. These are the "jethot" style coatings. What i have stated is true for those coatings, and many people here will back me up on that. I have no first hand knowledge of your specific coating process, so I cannot comment on that. Please give us some more info so we can make an informed decision.



The above statement is very interesting to me, as I'm a mechanical engineer, and I have a background in thermodynamic controls and processes (specifically related to jet engines). So please explain/elaborate on a few things here for the benifit of others on the forum (including me):

1) What exactly do you mean when you refer to "stoichiometric temperatures"? I'm sure you're aware that the word stoichiometric specifically refers to a chemical process that yields the component elements of a compound in a proportion represented by their chemical formula? As an example: For gasoline combustion, stoich is 14.7 units of fuel for every 1 unit of air. It doesn't have anything to do with temperature. So what does "stoich temp" mean?

2) You stated that the curing tempurature of your ceramic coating is in excess of 5000deg F? This is very interesting. Most ceramic coatings (all of the ones that I'm aware of) need to be brought to their curing tempurature in order to bond to the surface of the material. Usually this is around 600deg F. Once cured, the coating is durable to much higher temperatures. Since stainless steel and iron have melting temperatures around 2800deg F, this means that you can't actually bring your ceramic up to curing tempuratures without melting the material. So how exactly does this work?

3) By the 5-6k deg F comment that you made, I'm assuming that you mean your coatings are durable up to those temperatures. If that's true, then sweet! Most of the good (patented) cermic coatings are good to 2600F, and some of the DLC (diamond-like carbon, used on some of our advanced jet engines) coatings are good to 4000deg F. Your coating exceeds that by quite a bit. Very slick


Again, not trying to flame, just trying to get a little bit more info. Please elaborate a little on the coating and process that you use. Any type of link would be extremely helpful. I'm curious

-Rob


Edit: typo

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

The coated applications are only partially cured at the shop. As said in other threads if they were heated to the fully curing temperatures( flame temps) the applications would melt. Stoich temps refer to the hottest possible flame temperatures of combustion. We have never been able to burn off any of these coatings on any application. We also coat the entire combustion chambers on piston and rotary engines, flame temperatures far exceed downstream post flame temps seen in exhaust system. What I will say about the coating process is that 75% of it is in the preperation of the appliaction. A nasa spec clean room is used to coat these units, along with ultrasonic cleaning etc etc. Thats funny you mention jet engines, because these coatings were orginally designed and used by Nasa. These coatings also are the only ones on the market that have a pratt-whitney certification

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

So, you are coating the side housing and rotor housing chrome sides?

saxyman990

Sigh...

I guess you missed the point of my post. I suppose it was a little too subtle. So let me explain it more clearly for you: I know that you're full of crap, and you quite obviously don't know what you're talking about. My last post was an attempt to point that out in a nice, and non-flaming manner. Once again, I am a degreed mechanical engineer, and I deal with this stuff on a daily basis.

If you can prove me wrong, then great. By all means do so. I'd honestly like to see some proof that will contradict my points (it would mean an absolute revelation in coating processes). At that point, I will gladly step off my podium, and appologize. But until then I am calling complete Bullshit on you.

Again, I suppose I was too subtle in my last post. Let me rephrase my response: there is no such thing as "stoich temps"!! That phrase doesn't make any sense. Stoichiometric has absolutely nothing to do with temperatures or flame fronts. It refers to the correct mixture of chemical components in a reaction. The maximum (theoretical) temperature of combustion is usually refered to as "adiabatic flame temperatures." This usually occurs at stoichiometric (chemical reaction) conditions. But the phrase "stoichiometric temperatures" makes absolutely no sense when you're talking about curing temperatures of your coating!

Speaking of curing temperatures, again you said yours cures at 5000degrees, so you physically cannot heat it to the full curing temp. Again, this is complete BS. ALL KNOWN Ceramic based coatings cure around 500-600deg F (yes, even those found on the spaceshuttle). If you do not fully cure the product, it will not fully adhere to the surface. I would never purchase a product that didn't reach it's curing temperatrue.

I asked this before, but you didn't answer it, so I'll ask it again. Are you saying that your products can withstand 5000-6000deg F? You do realize that the highest temp coating available (other than what may be available in classified research labs) is a Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) coating (not ceramic), which has a sustained temp rating of 4000deg? We use DLC coatings on turbine blades of our most advanced jets. And I can tell you right now, even they don't have curing temps of 5kdegF.


This is one of the few things you got right, but has absolutely nothing to do with ceramic coating. Do you happen to know what those (theoretical and actual) temperatures are?


You stated earlier that you do this coating in your shop. So you have a "nasa spec clean room" (whatever that is) in your shop? Interesting... FYI, ANY company that specializes in coatings is extremely careful with product prep. Your particular coating is no different.


Yeah, that is kind of funny that I mentioned jet engines, since that's a big portion of my job. I've done a lot of work on the F135 jet engine, which if you don't know, is the Pratt-Whitney engine being used to power the new Joint Strike Fighter.

So obviously Polymer Dynamics (polydyn) is your supplier? BTW, just as an FYI, there are many other companies we can use for coatings. Certification doesn't really mean much. That was from a long time ago. LOL. I guess I'll give Carl and Keith at polydyn a call...

Now that I know polydyn is your supplier, I will say something to your benifit: Polydyn has some absolutely great products. Very top of the line, and high-quality. We use them for many things. If that's what you're using, then you definitely will have good results. But nothing exists that is quite to the level that you describe it. Many other companies can equal the quality that polydyn can provide.

I know right now what they'll tell me when I call. But I'll still give you the benifit of the doubt.


-Rob


Edit: typo

jimmyv13

Hmmm, plot thickens...

saxyman990

Update: Just got off the phone with Keith over at polydyn. He informed me of the Gold Ceramic Coating that 1Revvin7 uses on his manifolds and other parts. This is currently the best heat-barrier coating that they have available.

Curing temperature of this ceramic is approximately 550deg F for steels and irons.
Max sustainable temp is approximately 2200-2400deg F.

It's definitely a great looking coating, and probably better than most of the other ceramic coatings on the market. It'll probably outlast the standard jethot coatings. But its not nearly what you were making it out to be. Care to comment?

Keith also mentioned that these particular coatings are currently sprayed on. They are working on a new technique to ensure 100% coverage of the inside of parts. This process involves a dip of some type, but he would not go into much more detail than that (proprietary info). But he did inform me that it uses virtually the same ceramic material as a coating (ie, cure temp of 550, and max temp of 2400).

I asked him about the 5-6000 degrees issue, as well as the phrase "stoichiometric temperatures." Keith mentioned something about "smoking" and "crack," but I didn't pick up on the entire response...




-Rob

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Interesting,

The dark coating that DFW RX-7 Cook does is supposedly good to 3600F.

https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=31

I have that manifold and he also did my downpipe of the same stuff. He also did some other parts but of the lesser rated chrome color.

saxyman990

Kyle, there are a few coating companies out there that advertise that their product is good to 3000+ (although, I don't think I've heard anyone claim 3600). I'm not saying that they won't do this, cause there definitely are coatings that can handle those temperatures. But typically, for your standard procurable coatings, they are talking about brief periods of exposure to those temps, not sustained. Of course, anything over 3000 is basically pointless for any type of steel or iron, as combustion temperatures won't even come close to that, nor will the metal ever reach that point. But as long as the coating lasts, and it meets your needs, then it looks like it'll work just fine for you. Just out of curiosity, what was the cost of his coating?

-Rob

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Now that is some funny ****. Damn it's obvious you don't play when you call someone out. Thanks for your investigation. At least we now all know that the product is usefull.

Matt Hey

Did you ask him about the NASA clean room? %)

I have seen the 5000 degree coating advertised elsewhere. It sounds kind of strange to the people that know the melting point of steel. I figured it had something to do with short duration exposure but as is is useless marketing mumbojumbo guebullygosh. Gotta love salesman like 1Revvin7 .

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I don't have the details of the exact coating they are using. It could be good for 200F for all I know. I do know (as expected) the Chrome coating is rated much lower, but then again it doesn't need to be that high.

What I paid for on the coatings:

LIM - Cerama-Chrome - $150.00
Front Cover - Cerama-Chrome - $100.00
WPH - Cerama-Chrome - $100.00
DP - Ceramic Coating - $125.00

I don't know what the exhaust manifold cost since I bought that already done. He did give me a break on the pricing since I was doing a lot of parts (I also had them polish parts as well). I don't have the individual quote I got for each part any more, sorry.

2a+RoN

I think I actually would be interested in a product like the one 1revvin7 is doing, but the way he is going about trying to sell the stuff, makes me want to steer clear... I especially like how he tried to comment on other coatings on the outside only being a "gimmick", mmmm can you say hypocrite?