The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

Hi all,

Would really wanna get some insight from those who've used the Iannetti ceramic seals on what's best for a street & track 13B.

I've read pretty much all the threads on ceramics but haven't seen any conclusive remarks on what's best.

From the forums in general, I've learnt that 2 piece seals are supposed to seal better than 1 piece but tends to be more fragile at the pointy end compared to the 1 piece. Also, the 3mm is more robust. but doesn't seal as well as 2mm and milling of the rotor to fit the 3mm seals is a work of art which even a hairline difference can result in the need for a new motor and seals.

I'd like to build a street port engine to use with a T04S or EFR8374 single turbo at boosts around 15-17psi. Mainly for street use, but have the occasional track days and mountain runs. So engine longevity and low end response are critical factors I'd like for the new build.

Appreciate some expert opinion on this. Thanks~!

Rub20B

My optinion 1 piece seals are a must. the slightly loss in sealing is ot a problem in a turbo's engine as you can just compensate with boost. as for 3mm vs 2mm, both will work with the 3mm be able to tolerate a bit more detonation. nonetheless detonation is bad and the tune should be on the safe side wether its street or track car. If the rotor have mint slots I would consider 2mm, is the slots are sloppy I would have them EDM'd to 3mm.

clearance is really important with ceramics. so if you wire-edm them specify 3.01mm or a turbo'd engine. normally their tolerance is less than +-0.005mm. same goes for the width of ianetties. u can use them to calibrate your micrometer.

a friend of me is running a gt35r with 2mm 1pc NRS one pump fuel with stock top mount IC and water injection. works fine. before he ran stock mazda 2mm 2pc seals and cracked a tip off

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

I'm going to use new rotors so the slots will be 2mm. Given my concern with the milling process, I think I'm gonna stick with 2mm.

I guess I'm more hoping to get some expert opinion on the difference between 1 piece and 2 piece (both 2mm) for my application. It seems the higher the compression, the better, especially in lower rpm before the turbo kicks in. And the general consensus is that 2 piece will seal better than 1 piece and have a higher compression. But now, there's also been comments about 2 piece being weaker than 1 piece which I'm curious about. Mazda originals are 2 pieces, so if its got a strength problem over 1 pcs, why wouldn't they use 1 pc to begin with? In addition to that, if Iannetti charges more for the 2pcs than the 1 pc, one would assume that the 2 pcs is a superior product?

Rub20B

no 2 piece is harder/costs more time to make and therefore they are more expensive.

2 piece is just a weaker design, because the tip is unsupported. If u ask NRS or Ianetti they will always recommand 1 piece for a turbo apllication.

1pc will seal slightly better but imo its not worth the risk of the tip breaking off. this will will rotor and housing and set you back at least 3k on parts alone.

mazda uses 2 piece as they do care about emissions, fuel efficiency, cold start and they have a conservative tune and knock control and make way under 1 bar of boost pressure. so then 2 piece steel seals do work. If u get light detonation, the tip breaks off and the rest is history.

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

Thank you~ those are awesome insights!
I actually would love to get in touch with Iannetti but have no idea how to. No websites, no phone numbers, no Facebook. Any pointers?

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Is there any particular reason you are looking for ceramic seals in particular?

I recall hearing that they are prone to exploding when they experience pre-detonation, and when they do that they tend to take the entire motor with them..

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

I've gone thru 3 sets of Mazda originals, 1 set of hardened 1 pc, and the most recent RE Amemiya supplied set of hardened 3 pcs just gave out. So I had to see what the hype is about~

I've yet to read any bad reviews with ceramics since Mazda did win the LeMans running them. The overall review I've seen were that they can take a lot more abuse with both boost pressure and detonation, not to mention the kindness on the housings and amazing ability to maintain the same compression over time.

I've used steel seals in my previous engines and every time the rotors are scratched up. So are the housings. Meaning whatever I use, if it blows, my sh~t is fu~ked anyway!

All I'm hoping is that since I'm not running such high boost, and assuming Scoot actually know what they're doing and can get the tune right, I'll have an engine that'll be able to take my abuse for the next 10 years and the inside will prolly still look new. That would be my childish reason. :-)

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

Just read about the exploding ceramics. That's the NRS ceramic seals from Sven, this Canadian dude outta Alberta. I don't think he's in business anymore.

I'll not look at any other brand other than iannetti. So lets see if they still sell a 1 pc 2mm ceramic seal. If not, guess I'll have to go with stock seals again.

Rub20B

Sure hes in business. We run his seals and up till know they hold just fine, bot NA and turbo.

What exactly went wrong with your steel seals? Cracked or warped? If warped I suspect u run too lean and seals overheat, if cracked u have detonation and u should first fix that instead of hope for ceramics to fix that problem. As they wont.. And def not a 2 pc seal..

billyboy

Le Mans was an na engine - which they're ideal for. The bit about more tolerant of abuse is 180° out. There's a guy over here who ran the Iannettis on a racing engine program - 10s of engines. When you witness rotors, housings, turbos and even the plates useless after a blow, the other crappy alternatives start to look like the least bad option.

peejay

How is that different from any other apex seal. Any time I have taken apart an engine that suffered a seal failure, the only thing reusable from that end of the engine was the stationary gear!

billyboy

Method of seal failure perhaps? Aftermarket bendies just lose comp, don't tend to depart the rotor slot...they just wear out rotor housings in short order to recompense.

Stock - and even more so ceramics - tend to shrapnel. CSIRO here had ceramics predating Iannetti, time marches on sure, but even with the resources at their disposal, couldn't resolve that one.

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

I've read and gotten so many mixed opinions about the Iannetti ceramic apex seals. Some say it can be used in any rotary and SHOULD be used due to its self lubricating nature and kindness on rotor housing, not to mention its ability to withstand multiple detonations. Others say it should only be used on race engines.
My Japanese tuner tells me that nobody in Japan has ever used 2mm ceramics on turbo engines, but multiple has done 3mm but at the expense of compression at low RPM.
So my question is, does anyone on this forum know Francisco Iannetti personally and know how to reach him? I'd love to get his personal take on whether I should use it on my next built or not.

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

I've gone thru 5 engines so far and every time, the rotors and housing has to be replaced. Side housings and the eccentric shaft are salvageable at times. I've only used Mazda original seals and RE-A 3 pcs seals so far.

Fortunately tho, it's never screwed up my turbo till date.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

You might want to try some of the softer "bendable" apex seals, like the:

Rotary aviation black seals
E&J autoworks
Rotary Extreme
Power Seals

As long as you understand that the chances of replacing rotor housings are way higher with these seals, then you will be good to go

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

Ceramics are for NA applications and or Racing applications due to the sustained heat for long durations. They won't melt or deform, bend from the heat. When they break they are hard on engine internals. Not worth using in a street car of any kind in my opinion.

They don't seal well, especially at low RPM. Look elsewhere for seals for the street.

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

This is good advice. Also a hard seal that's breakable will take out the hot side of the turbo along with the housings. That gets expensive.

eage8

iTrader: (9)

call up lucky 7 racing, they've been using them in their cars (non-turbo and turbo race cars) and like them...

86-95 Iannetti Ceramic Apex Seal ? Lucky 7 Racing Inc.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

He's right. When you crack an OEM seal, you typically damage either one rotor and rotor housing, or both rotors and rotor housings. Irons ok (including that sweet porting often found on the intake ports) and e-shaft ok.

When you have a failure with ceramic seals, it's not even worth bothering to crack the block. Just stick a fork in it, because it's done--- it's all done. All eight major components, completely fragged.

At IRP we use RxParts seals for higher powered builds and OEM two piece seals for closer to stock builds.

Ultimate Spirit R, the RxParts seals are perfect for your goals IMO. You don't need ceramics unless you lose your turbo. The only thing they'll bring you is heartbreak in my experience.

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

^Ive had an engine go with one piece NRS 3MM Seals. Damage Toll: Rotors #Ded Housings #Ded Irons #Ded Brand New Turbo #Ded... No biggie.

I've also used Goopy seals this past year and a half. And although the engine was ok when we pulled it apart... We weren't very happy with housing wear while using them.

I've swapped to PTS 2MM Seals out of Australia for the new race engine.
My mentor has used them in all his builds from street cars to 1800WHP 3 rotors drag cars. Although I will say that there's nothing wrong with Genuine OE Mazda 2mm Seals.
PTS seals for reference

jantore

To be honest, depnding on what you want use PTS, goopy or RxParts seals.

I have for the last 7 years used NRS ceramic seals in my 2 engines. 1 piece 3mm ceramic seals for my 13b-rew BP engine. And im a firm beliver as long as your run it "safe" and have a good engine and all components round it is good, it will last forever. I took the engine apart 2 years ago, and after 5k km they look brand new. Same with seals.

Now for the 2nd engine i got 2 piece 2mm seals for my 4 rotor. They have run for about 60 hours on dyno and track. No sign of any wear at all, rotor housings and seals look brand new. Now the engine has been sitting for 4 years. But hopefully will be in a new car next year, ready for some more racing

So to answer the question, there is no issues with ceramics as long as they don't break But depending on your build, and the power you want. As long as you run pump fuel, use wather/meth along with the pump fuel you should be safe. And ofc no PFC and OEM ignition. Use some standalone ECU with new harness and the right coils and plugs.

But most engines will be fine with OEM seals, and the right build. They do handle decent amount of power. It's just that if the parts around the engine is crapy, every type of seal will fail.

JT

Paermazz

Great Reading

FD7KiD

iTrader: (8)

2mm E&J 2 piece.

Slides

If i had lost 5 engines with a relatively common setup i would be asking what ancillary system or tuner was failing to perform correctly not trying to mask the symptoms with tougher components.

Fair enough if you were tuning yourself or you knowingly fuel starved it at a track day and it was learning experience you were happy to pay for but if you haven't identified a cause with the same people maintaining/tuning it apex seals are not your problem.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

if you're blowing an engine with stock seals, you will blow one with ceramic seals, except with more parts needing to be replaced.

ceramic is the most easily broken of all seals besides carbon, except ceramic seals are the easiest on the housings wear wise. you won't ever have chatter, gouges or any of that nonsense as long as you don't detonate and shatter them.

if using ceramic seals in a turbo engine you would use 3mm only, 2mm is far too fragile and only for naturally aspirated engines. even 3mm ceramics can easily fail though if you test them with a few light detonation cycles in a turbo setup.

if you were building a racing non turbo, ceramics all the way! i plan on running them in my boat's engines since it will be running high revs for long periods of time.