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Ok please show me all the parts needed for the pneumatic gates to do that, how to program it, how many other inputs/outputs I need, and put it all in a nice package I can slap on my car.
Oh, you can't do that? Guess I'll use the e-gate then..
Ok please show me all the parts needed for the pneumatic gates to do that, how to program it, how many other inputs/outputs I need, and put it all in a nice package I can slap on my car.
Oh, you can't do that? Guess I'll use the e-gate then..
Vac/boost source to top port, ~3 or 4psi spring, you can run any dumb conventional boost control strategy linked to passing a throttle or manifold pressure threshold doing this. If the valve to diaphragm area ratio is what it should be you will get a long way into boost before you top out. If you are running a turbo big enough to go over 40psi at high rpm back pressure at idle/cruise is meaningless. It's the same way people plumb gates as supercharger bypass valves.
If you are really trying to milk the last few poufes out in the top end, one additional 3 port solenoid to switch the boost source to post compressor so you have the intercooler pressure loss too.
worst case with a 20 year old ecu that can't do inverted output you run one solenoid as boost control and another as diverter.
So that's how you get close. Please add up all those parts for me, make a nice list so I can buy them, and have everything accounted for. Exactly what size diaphragm do I need to run with an EF8374?
You're getting close to answering my question, without doing all the hard work of actually answering it.
Remember, you're arguing that I shouldn't just buy an e-gate kit that bolts right to my turbo, and uses existing software algorithms already in the ECU to control it. If your way is simpler and cheaper, then you might have a point. So far it sounds like your way is significantly more complex, comes with control drawbacks, and will take a lot more time to implement. Not all new things are bad..
So that's how you get close. Please add up all those parts for me, make a nice list so I can buy them, and have everything accounted for. Exactly what size diaphragm do I need to run with an EF8374?
You're getting close to answering my question, without doing all the hard work of actually answering it.
On most cheap ecus from the last 10 years it's one MAC valve and a generic conventional gate. Total cost an order of magnitude less than an Egate and controller or capable ecu.
Which ecu are you using that already has this functionality?
Ok, how do I size it properly to do exactly what I want? What if I decide that I want to have it closed at idle all of a sudden, and drastically change the engine behavior? I.E. go from cruise tune mode to fun mode. With a very low PSI spring, I'm all of a sudden severely boost limited am I not? Now I need a way to hold the gate closed to build boost as quickly as possible... this doesn't seem like it would work with your strategy. I'm here to learn, tell me how I get 100% gate position control without an e-gate
While you could do it all with a CO2 kit or a compressor, you then need to worry about having a full CO2 bottle, or having a big heavy compressor that's going to take up more space and weigh more than just have a nice little e-gate. Plus fittings, lines, potential leaks, etc. A compressor is also going to have that current draw that you are trying to avoid by skipping the e-gate..
I have an FT550. CO2, e-gate, all sorts of choices for boost control. Boost by gear, traction control tied to boost, boost by TPS all sorts of crazy stuff I haven't fully explored. Yes I am running DBW. E-Gate gives me the ability to use all this without having to worry about bottle pressure, lines, spring weights, leaking fittings, compressor or tank moisture level. It's all done though a laptop instead of having to put it on a lift. IWG wastegate position is a bitch to swap springs, especially on RHD.
Ok, how do I size it properly to do exactly what I want? What if I decide that I want to have it closed at idle all of a sudden, and drastically change the engine behavior? I.E. go from cruise tune mode to fun mode. With a very low PSI spring, I'm all of a sudden severely boost limited am I not? Now I need a way to hold the gate closed to build boost as quickly as possible... this doesn't seem like it would work with your strategy. I'm here to learn, tell me how I get 100% gate position control without an e-gate
I edited my earlier post but clearly you are indeed very ignorant of pneumatics and mathematics. If you are applying boost to the top of the diaphragm it's holding the valve shut, many gates have an effective area ratio of 1.5:1 meaning with nothing more than a "helper" spring in boost over you could get to 30PSI boost with 45 PSI exhaust manifold pressure (on a "response" sized turbo, if you go big with far lower EMP:IMP you can pretty well run most turbos out of available pressure/shaft speed), you don't need to change any springs, with just a 3psi spring that will then give you something like another 7.5PSI (on a "tight turbo) with boost assist. This is why people who actually know what they are doing use boost over with 3 or 4 ports for a very wide control range. Again, want to close gate at cruise for higher baseline shaft speed? One solenoid on a switch or ecu output or a hand driven valve if using a really shitty 30 year old ecu, one switched input and logic threshold change on a slightly less shitty ecu (you could do this with a 25 year old motec or autronic or an adaptronic 420b or similar era haltech or link gear) it's definitely not rocket science. So literally just a switched input on any modern ecu so it doesn't expose the gate to the manifold pressure source until it's positive pressure.
@mr2peak@TeamRX8
You are thinking you're big brain schooling me and as usual programmable mindset laziness has meant people don't actually understand the basics of operation of systems they have already been using. Muppets.
no, you’re getting too worked up and not in control of yourself.
at this point I’m just clowning around because some of this is hard to be serious about. You’ve said plenty to me in that same regard and you’re welcome to your opinion just as much as I am, but if you’re going to dish it out then you might need to work on taking it on the chin better.
Literally everything automotive was figured out over a century ago by very smart people. The difference is technology has made it more possible today than it was then. You want to stick with a carb and points distributor then be my guest, but you’re not so shy about sneering and being pompous when others disagree with it either.
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no, you’re getting too worked up and not in control of yourself.
at this point I’m just clowning around because some of this is hard to be serious about. You’ve said plenty to me in that same regard and you’re welcome to your opinion just as much as I am, but if you’re going to dish it out then you might need to work on taking it on the chin better.
Literally everything automotive was figured out over a century ago by very smart people. The difference is technology has made it more possible today than it was then. You want to stick with a carb and points distributor then be my guest, but you’re not so shy about sneering and being pompous when others disagree with it either.
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I couldn't care less if people want to play with electronic gate actuation, the problem I have is low IQ over confident clowns telling people they need to use more expensive, less reliable **** to do things they could have been doing decades ago with off the shelf/already in their engine bay/kick panel components.
I don't mind copping some stick if I choose to go a different way but I have asked you several times to explain a strategy where the compromise in reliability, cost and setup is worthwhile and you offer nothing but word soup about alleged secret squirrel magic bull$hit. You are still yet to genuinely describe a useful control strategy I can't do with an entry level ecu and diaphragm gate.
You try to come across like you're some armchair seer of rotary tuning when in reality you’re closer to a dunce.
Hey you're right I don't know a shitload about boost control. However, the E-Gate seems like a very easy way to get exactly what I want without having to mess around with 4 port control, which I was told to avoid due to unreliable boost levels with the turblown IWG kit.
While your older school way sounds like it could work, it is still not as flexible as an e-gate. I'm also sure the e-gate won't be as simple as plugging it in, but once it's on it should be incredibly flexible. This car is a toy for me, flexibility is exactly what I'm looking for here.
You say the e-gates are unreliable, but it's an OEM Honda actuator, paired with a solid state relay. Will the turbosmart twin port pneumatic gates will last as long as an OEM engineered solution? The Borg supplied units are probably great (Borg being an OEM supplier), but they are single port and well that just won't do what we want.
I agree that egates are overkill for most people. That's probably why we have less than 10 people engaging in this thread lmao
I agree that egates are overkill for most people. That's probably why we have less than 10 people engaging in this thread lmao
They really are not overkill, and they are reliable and remove hoses and fittings from the engine bay. Its just current boost control tech vs the way we've always done it. I stopped talking earlier as my BMW S55 (twin turbo I6 with electronic wastegate actuators for internal gates) tuning experience was dismissed. German cars have been using electronic actuators on internal wastegates for a decade now as OEM with Bosch Motronic DME/ECUs. The ECUs have different control models compared to most rotary setups unless using the newer standalones with torque management and feed forward, custom defined lookup tables. Really nothing I've seen before Emtron and Motec have the similar features. FuelTech has specific features for electronic gates but is really drag focused with boost target tables. You can learn more OEM approaches with layered forward lookup tables on driver demand, compressor and turbine modeling, boost target, wheel slip and more by looking at BM3 or Ecutek tuning platform boost control on the Bosch ECUs. It is well documented by the vendors and on bimmerpost forums.
The primary maintenance item I've observed with the electronic wastegate actuators is the need to recalibrate them from time to time. This is the same for pneumatic, although most people never invest in a wastegate position sensor for them to know when it is out of calibration. The direct control over the wastegate position of electronic EWGs or IWG actuators is more accurate than influencing wastegate position with CO2 or other gasses with dome pressure. There isn't a big advantage to these without an exceptional use case like in drag racing or if you want 2010s+ OEM like calibration for your vehicle. Most of us probably don't need them, but some of us don't like to leave well enough alone.
I was going to try and clean up this thread but there is some interesting bits of info and a good debate on pros/cons mixed in with the juvenile crap so I'll ask you guys to cut it out please. If someone isn't getting your point or acknowledging your opinion as weightily as you do yourself, move on. No need for anyone to resort to juvenile name calling.
In the end we are all brothers in the rotary world. Let's support each other and share knowledge and recognize that there is room for error and differences of opinion.
so I never heard any mention of this company before tripping across it researching the subject back when, but apparently they manufacture bespoke wastegate and antilag valves for pro racing with exotic materials and such
it get’s a bit awkward in this video clip when someone asks Mr. Old School Sr. about electronic WG valves at the 23:10 time mark apparently they got caught out behind the 8 ball given it was only three years ago, which was several years after Turbosmart released their own:
Well, 2 days ago FuelTech updated to 5.2, giving improved e-gate resolution. Also added electronic BOV control so that's fun as well. Cold-side boost control is here, even if it's only implemented on a small scale e-BOV. The world will keep innovating, it's up to us to see what we can use
Egate going on. Oil drain line is in the way, will need to be cut and welded to give more clearance. Mount will also need to be cut away a bit to clear the oil line.
Clearance on the RHD rack is tight, very tight. Measured and eyeballed it, engine might come out again to re-clock the wastegate to fit. Actuator rod will likely need a Z bend put into it to keep the rod angle acceptable on the wastegate. Don’t want it getting stuck open.
These lines might need to be hit by a purse a few times. We will see, fingers crossed the engine won’t have to come out again.
I’s a good thing FuelTech did the e-gate boost control update if that’s your choice. I recall somebody else who had headaches controlling a Turbosmart electronic wastegate with one. So much so that it was changed to a Haltech and everything was fine then. Hope it works out ok.
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Yes I agree. But it's a new thing, so I don't expect it to be perfect. Sure would be nice though.
If it doesn't work the way we need, I'll just use 2 of the 5 wires and go back to a pneumatic gate until improvements are made again. Swap the connector and change the control strategy, won't even need to swap pins on the harness. But, fitting the actual gate is a massive bitch with the clearance to the rack... don't want to pull the engine again just for a wastegate. Low mount issues, downside of a short manifold. Fingers crossed..
The FuelTech 700/700+ series is aimed at full build street and track cars, more circuit focused, so a lot of those features are being added to the 450/550/600 through updates. 5.2 was significant, hope we get more good stuff.
Gate is fitted on a RHD car. Took ages to get it to fit, it's tight but it's in there.
The opening of the gate is more of an issue than we thought. It's definitely not fully open. I will still try it, but with a 3" open exhaust boost creep could be a concern. More importantly, with the gate not fully open, it will take the full heat from the exhaust right on the valve face and pivot point at all times. My mechanic (races a bunch of rotaries in Siam GT and Asia GT) is worried the valve or pivot might fail in this position as an outside possibility, it should be fine but he's made me aware it could happen and we need to keep an eye on it. So, definitely bad news it's way less of a complete kit than Full Race lead us to believe...
Also, e-gate draws just under 15amps at full load. Full Race finally got back to me about this. I think they said 14.85amps max. So that means it could be run directly from some ECUs H-bridge without the need for an H Bridge amp driver, saving ~$200. That said, I'm still using a driver.
Also got twin e-map sensors tapped into the Turblown shorty next to the EGTs, so that will be enlightening and should answer more questions
FYI I have heard this same thing from many tuners with many different ECUs. But, I will be sending the gate to FuelTech USA to see if they can get the settings correct.
01-08-24, 09:16 AM
apparently they got caught out behind the 8 ball given it was only three years ago, which was several years after Turbosmart released their own:
