BW E-Gate by Full Race, anyone using it?
 

Anyone here using the E-Gate for the IWG EFRs from Full Race?

https://www.full-race.com/full-race-...conversion-kit

Feel like I've been living under a rock, just discovered this as an option

It's brand new. Only became available for B2 frame turbos a couple weeks ago and B1 frame not yet in stock.

I have a B2 on the way though.

Cool cool, I figured that was the case. I shot them an email with a few questions.

What ECU are you using, and are you going to use their controller or control it directly from your ECU?

Need to use their controller which will accept PWM. It has the position sensor stuff built into it. You might be able to figure out how to control it with a dual H bridge driver in an ecu (like how the DBW throttle body works), but that's beyond me :)

Haltech and fuel tech have controller modules for controlling external gates, but that's been out for a while, so I figure they would have just used that instead of having another company make one that is double the cost if they could have avoided it.

I looked on the Full Race and DCCD websites and did not see any instructions on how the controller works from an actual tuning perspective to get desired boost curve. From my own experience tuning these electronic gates, they use stepper motors and are not very linear or intuitive to control. Wastegate swing valve position corresponds to a particular opening area of the valve, which not linear to boost at all. Maybe their software simplifies it but I don't see any info on the software. On OEM applications they typically have look up tables inside the ECU that convert these parameters (motor position, swing valve angle, opening area of the valve, and some calculated turbine flow parameter that feeds into the boost control algorithm).

Turbosmart has a different style electronic external wastegate. I think it's a normal poppet style external gate that's controlled electronically instead of pneumatically. If you dig into the instructions you can see the same type of situation, where there are multiple settings that relate to the relationship between valve position and opening area: BlackBox Electronic Wastegate Controller • Turbosmart .

It's just PWM. 95% duty cycle is fully open. 5% is sealed shut. You then adjust for your desired control. Similar to how you control a wastegate solenoid.

I've played with the turbosmart software. It's basically the same. But, for their own Egates, it's got the logic built in for boost control. But you can use the controller for other Hbridge applications as well.

Id be very interested if someone could get the turbosmart box to work. It can control 2 gates at the same time. I have a twin IWG setup. I'd really like to avoid buying 2 controllers, turbosmart working in this case would save me $500.

it’s on my list :suspect: but may just depend with ecu is being used, Haltech has their own controller, etc.

imo the potential of the e-WG is well underestimated …
.

I've ordered it, along with the FuelTech Dual Power Driver they use for their own wastegates to drive as a proper stepper setup. Wiring looks like it's the same between FuelTech and Full Race units, apart from the temp sensor on some of the FuelTech gates that is lacking on the Full Race, and un-needed as it's a remote mount wastegate anyway. The Full Race controller's main benefit is PWM control from the ECU, luckily I have enough proper outputs on the FT550 I can drive it directly. I don't think the FT550 has the ability to correctly integrate the gate though PWM control, of course I could be wrong. My way is also a few hundred cheaper, so there's that..

Real question is, will it fit between the Turbo and the steering rack? It's quite a bit longer than the stock and TurboSmart wastegate. I might have to move the power steering hard lines or even tap it for new port locations on the rack.. That's by far my biggest concern at the moment. For reference I have the TurboSource IWG manifold.

the factory turbo cars from the 80's had some oddball wastegate logic. the Yamaguchi book explains how it worked.
factory turbo engines eventually ended up in the RB Bonneville car, so its a 13B Bridgeport 7.5:1 rotors, a pair of HT-20 turbos, they quoted 530hp@15psi.
this is with a distributor, and mechanical fuel injection too, so rock and paper.... life span of a hand grenade, which is why the factory went to 3 and 4 rotors

the factory cars had a air to air and air to water intercooling setup, RB just went for air to ice water. radiator is BIG. cowboy hat not included. (Jim Mederer was extremely nice)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...ea98923b52.jpg

Can you post up the bit about the gate logic? Looked at buying it, but the cheapest most worn copy will be over $200 by the time I pay shipping and taxes..

Interested in how the gate logic could be applied to an electronic gate, and if that would be beneficial in any way

its actually worth the $$, although if you keep your eye open you could probably get it cheaper, eventually.

the FC book says "a usual wastegate shared between the two turbochargers..." "...and a modulating valve that actuates the wastegate according to rpm to improve throttle response"

actually it might just be a boost controller, but in 1981 its made of rock.
they only ran it once,

and

it

broke the welds on the intake manifold

lmao nice.


I'll keep an eye out for it

it’s what you can actually do with it that can’t readily be done with a pneumatic WG that makes all the difference
.

Yes absolutely, still exploring exactly what that mean. This tech is still quite new, not a lot of info out there on any of the forums yet. I want a cruising map with the gate fully open, and I want a max-response map that will keep the gate clamped shut until I hit target. I'm sure there's some transition throttle tuning that can benefit from it as well. Traction control will also benefit. Playing with the FuelTech software, the e-gate integration seems like it's very capable. I'm sure I won't use the full potential initially, but it definitely opens the doors for more advanced strategies.

Other than openning in vacuum on a tiny turbo for fuel efficiency more easily (can still be done with pneumatic) or slightly easier balancing pressure ratios on a compound setup I can't really see what the massive attraction is to them. If you think about your plumbing and control strategy you can do pretty much all the same things with pneumatic at lower cost, higher reliability.

Thank you for demonstrating the validity of my first post further above. Not really getting ito it otherwise.
.

I think the ability to control the exact position of the gate is what the benefit is. Instead of the gate creeping open when you done necessarily want it to (that is why drag racers use CO2 as a stand alone system), which adds quite a bit of cost itself, on top of the regular waste gate.

Also, I would not assume reliability is lower on the egate. There are plenty of diaphragm failures on traditional gates, not to mention melted reference lines, and leaky/broken fittings. Reliability on egates i would say is not proven yet, but could actually be higher than traditional (it could also be lower).

So for a relatively generic setup, yeah, traditional gate is fine for most applications and will be less expensive. But there are absolutely advantages to the electric gate if you are pushing high boost, including more consistent boost control, direct position control, no plumbing (unless you are running water cooling). No more need for CO2 systems.

It's not a revolutionary solution to world peace obviously, but I wouldn't say it has no benefit.

Raceonly twin egates setup

If you can't articulate it clearly you don't know.

Electronic wastegates have been the norm for a while in German cars. They give much better control to compensate where pneumatic gates can’t. Most of the ECUs use a torque demand strategy when tuning and EWG control is closely related. It will be interesting to see how the aftermarket ECU manufacturers approach using them for inputs and outputs for other features vs just plain boost control.

For those wanting to learn more about how electronic gates are used on BMWs for the last decade, check out this article on B58 tuning from Ecutek: https://ecutek.atlassian.net/wiki/sp...8+Tuning+Guide. The torque control and boost control sections of the articles cover it. As to what benefits I saw on other platforms, I had a 2017 M3 with twin turbo S55. We used electronic wastegate to get the turbos spooling extremely fast. They can react fast enough that reactions to inputs need smoothing to avoid oscillation. They were used directly in rolling anti-lag and custom traction control strategies.

For those who don't want to follow a link. This is the logic to control electronic wastegate position on an OEM single turbo BMW.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...8559b0dec2.jpg

TL;DR you're still going to have to mess around with different numbers and how much boost they generate, but it's not the same duty cycle relationship as a pressure-based actuator.

There's nothing unique to the software above. You'll find a variation of it on basically every turbo engine now (domestics as well) minus a few that uses really outdated controls.

In the diagram above, everything to the left of "Calculate wastegate position" you won't have and don't need to consider. All that is actually independent of the wastegate actuator. You're not modelling the relationship between torque and airflow, boost, or turbocharger pressure ratios on your FD's ECU. Maybe Mazda is on their current turbo engines. The target boost for your engine is mostly some number decided beforehand and then adjusted slightly. There's nothing in your ECU that's going to have a reasonably accurate torque model, but you don't need that for what you're trying to do.

The block marked WG Position Conversion Map is what I was talking about in a previous post. It's the relationship between the actuator, the angle of the wastegate valve (swing valve, internal wastegate, or valve lift on a poppet style external gate), and the opening area of the valve. The opening area of the valve is related to the amount of exhaust that flows through the turbine, which increases the turbo speed and the boost created by the compressor side.

On a standard 2 or 3 port boost control solenoid/pressure based actuator (what you're all used to), you're sort of affecting how much pressure is working against the spring in the actuator, and the rate or timing at which the gate opens. The EBC duty cycle does not directly correspond to a valve position, although typically max duty will keep the valve shut if the system is designed correctly. With an electronic actuator (or a vacuum actuator, see older BMWs) you're just directly picking a valve position or at least picking within a range of opening angles. The number 1 benefit to this is emissions (open the wastegate in cold start) and fuel economy (open it while cruising around, less backpressure), and MAYBE less sensitivity to ambient temperature. Also you get a more precise control, but you have to do a lot of tuning to take advantage of that.

Yes a lot of fine-tuning will be needed. That’s the fun of building a car with all the toys.

FuelTech has quite advanced traction control strategies, and using the wastegate is a primary strategy. Usually it’s used with a dual valve controller and CO2, but that’s not a realistic option on a street car, and a standard wastegate has fluctuation issues that can make these strategies less effective. As much as I didn’t set out to build a drag car, a 450whp+ FD will see a lot of launches so I might as well get that right.

The only downside I can see is cost, and let’s be honest this isn’t a cheap hobby from the start. I paid for an ECU with advanced functions, I want to use them to the full extent that I can.

The other downside is fitment. I might have to get creative with the power steering lines. There’s a very possibility that it won’t fit.

Next year this will be an Electronic BOV thread, OEMs have already gone this way for fuel efficiency, transient throttle, etc

just pointing out wrt the dual black box controller; they don’t just make an electronic WG …
.