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Boohoo...turns out my EFR 8374 setup won't be a practical option for the IWG e-gate kit due to the overall length of the actuator's head. You can see in the foto that my AC lines would impede the install. Sucks bc I was really looking forward to the potential synergy w my Syvecs ECU; including, pending DBW conversion. Oh well, life happens!
My existing setup uses a TS IWG75 actuator so it's possible that I'll upgrade to the dual port version if my tuner decides that's a better way to go moving forward.
In the meantime, I'll look to find a good home for my Full Race EFR B2 e-gate kit. One thing to note about this Hitachi actuator, when mated to the 8374 turbo, it lacks the full throw of the existing IWG actuator; thus, low boost may be an issue since the throw is only 13mm vs 16mm. I'm not fully sure of the potential impact this slight difference could have in the real world but something to take notice just the same.
^Yep, indeed! But not a practical solution for me at this moment since my FD is currently located w the tuner. Perhaps I'll revisit the potential of e-gate technology at some other occasion TBD. Additionally, the issue of limited throw of the Hitachi actuator rod when mated w the EFR 8374 is a hill too high to climb for me since I don't fully understand the "low boost" implications if not being able to fully open the wastegate flapper.
one; with an electronic valve the one thing it can never do is reach the end of the open/close points, but continue to pull/push past those points and it not be able to go any further. The actuator will end up destructing itself or bending/breaking something else.
two, if the IWG arm is evaluated from the full open position to 1/8” short of full open position (which I did , but different brand housing), due to the flapper valve arm angle geometry in that position, it amounts to almost nothing wrt the IWG flap flowing any more or not imo.
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You calibrate the gate to find those end points. Of course it can't go past its physical limits, but if the limits are within its range of motion, calibrating the gate negates the "pushing past" issue. At least it does with the FuelTech e-gate self-calibration settings, I'm not sure how you are controlling yours.
I should have elaborated more; just because the pneumatic canister has 3mm more travel doesn’t mean it’s using it all on the IWG arm travel limit. The pneumatic canister can hit the limit of flapper arm travel and hold it there without harm. The electronic controller can’t. Which as you stated, is why it has limit setpoint controls.
I also was going to suggest bending the AC lines out of the way in the initial discussion, but had assumed it maybe wasn’t that simple, even though it appeared possible in the one photo. Maybe the shop doing the work is playing on the conservative side. If the lines end up damaged/ruptured they’d be on the hook for repairing them maybe. That’s a discussion between them and the customer on how to handle such a situation. Maybe they even did and neither one wants to chance it.
The thing is, the car can still be modded and operational with the AC emptied and unplugged. That could then be remedied later after the engine work. That’s a personal decision by the owner
Interestingly enough, this video from 4 yrs ago shows a IWG egate application from Turbosmart (product referenced as e-IWG) mounted on a BW EFR series turbo; plus, electronic-driven BOV (both viewable in the first 10 seconds of the video). Unfortunately, these specific products have yet to hit the market as best that I can determine; hence, the alternative electronic wastegate actuator kits from Full-Race & Turbosource currently being offered.
I've yet to hear back from either mfr regarding the potential full throw issue of their actuator arms. But w my current issue of limited head space for the time-being, I've simply elected to go w a dual port IWG75 actuator in order to run a phase/anti-phase boost control strategy in lieu of egate control.
If Turbosmart ever releases their egate version for IWG applications, I'll look to revisit the potential electronic upgrade. And who knows, perhaps it will be released as a package offering once their new turbo lines begin to hit the marketplace full scale.
as long as it’s been since that came out, and as many other electronic actuators as they’ve released since then, it seems likely there was an issue still yet to be resolved.
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it should be popular, still a lot of old school dinosaurs who don’t recognize the potential, the potential being outside the box of how most people view the process, and not able to see beyond it ...
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it should be popular, still a lot of old school dinosaurs who don’t recognize the potential, the potential being outside the box of how most people view the process, and not able to see beyond it ...
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For 99% of people the only real advantage is being able to open the gate on cruise on a small street turbo to slightly reduced back pressure. You can do the same thing with a vacuum source and an extra solenoid valve on a dual port diaphragm gate, in fact if you match a light spring in top port active you could do the whole lot with just a diaphragm gate and post throttle reference and have better throttle angle to torque metering than 98% of setups with all the bullshit 5D torque demand model ecus. With existing, far cheaper, more reliable and lower current draw hardware you can do pretty much all the rest, the only application it's easier is probably drag where many were using high pressure sources.
Received a response from Turbosmart. (Paraphrasing) After teasing the e-IWG at SEMA several years ago, they chose to focus on electronic external wastegates due to seemingly more interest in that area (vs IWG). Additionally, non-committal on any future e-IWG offering (but maybe).
speak of the devil, figured that would get you to rise and take a bite …
I still say it’s not being thought through fully, for the reasons stated, but choose not to publicly explain the basis of it.
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If you cannot simply describe an area where it genuinely delivers better control (again, outside drag racing), for mixed use street/circuit/hillclimb it's a "solution" with problems of it's own, looking for a problem. There us a reason OEMs with long warranty periods don't use them.
This actuator below comes with a 5 year 60k mile warranty when you buy a Honda. The reason turbosmart didn’t make their own is because they make money in the aftermarket performance world. Most aftermarket performance turbos do not have internal gates. So if they can only focus on a few priorities as a company, trying to make money off internal electronic wastegates when it will be a limited volume market which is already covered by a major OEM (Mitsubishi below, and there are others), just doesn’t make sense for them when they have other opportunities.
it looks difficult to package, although the hidden opportunity is to have some elaborate linkage between this thing and the turbo, like any typical German car.
you'd expect it to be less reliable than the Honda unit.
If you cannot simply describe an area where it genuinely delivers better control (again, outside drag racing), for mixed use street/circuit/hillclimb it's a "solution" with problems of it's own, looking for a problem. There is a reason OEMs with long warranty periods don't use them.
Are you talking about cold side boost control, or electric exhaust wastegates?
^^the e-gate, he’s responding to my dinosaur reference
Originally Posted by Slides
If you cannot simply describe an area where it genuinely delivers better control (again, outside drag racing), for mixed use street/circuit/hillclimb it's a "solution" with problems of it's own, looking for a problem. There us a reason OEMs with long warranty periods don't use them.
I can describe it, but choose not to waste my time attempting to communicate with with a blind eye and deaf ear that can neither know nor perceive the truth of the matter. Not to mention that’s a pretty lame response in general considering the forum area we’re in.
There’s some amazing things going on out there that will likely never see the light of day on this forum. What does OEM warranty have to do with it? Most of the stuff being done here was never offered by Mazda. Let’s not forget that gem of an engine that was in the RX8 either.
for all you know an e-gate might still be going strong long after several sets of apex seals came and went
guess I better drop the Motec ecu idea too, because no manufacturer ever provided an ecu with a blank sheet that allows designing and developing your own custom firmware.
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Here's a nice video that sums up some of the potential of egate technology starting around the 15:35 mark (just in case the link doesn't open up at this precise moment in the video). Interesting to hear how the tuning folks stumbled upon the scenario where they achieve considerable more torque at lower rpm simply by the ability to manipulate the wastegate opening position (proactively vs reactively); essentially due to less exhaust pressure overall so the engine breathes easier...yada yada yada.
And although I've owned a RX7 or three for many moons, I am in no way a gear/rotor head. At all. But I do find the technological advancements of today's sports cars fascinating even though I may not fully understand how the inner workings are accomplished within the ECU. Anyhow, this video hit home for me a little bit as some of the discussion actually made sense (ha)!
At the end of the day, and somewhat disappointingly, I'll be holding off for the time-being until TS offers their own e-IWG version. They make tons of the IWG75 units for multiple platforms so it's not like the IWG actuators are new territory for them. I suspect maybe the internal electronics of the IWG version could be more susceptible to heat-related issues being mounted so close to the hottest part(s) of the turbo. But I also take the gentleman's word informing me that the external egates are definitely the higher priority for TS at this time.
Holding the gate open at idle and low throttle is exactly why I want to run an e-gate. Easier starts, less heat held in at idle, less heat produced by the turbo at low throttle movements.
I don't think Turbosmart will bring the IWG gate to market. We have seen prototypes in the past, and it's been a few years of silence. You're talking about a very niche product, people who have an EFR which is already a rare and expensive turbo, and then are also using an internal gated housing. Most guys running e-gates are using external gates to make more power. While a bunch of us on this board run IWG EFRs, that's far from the norm. And I think we might be the largest users of IWG EFRs, I can't think of another platform that runs them as the "go to" turbo like we consider them.
I would be happier if someone cast larger AR IWG housings.. Turbosource could make a killing, they like casting things..
^^the e-gate, he’s responding to my dinosaur reference
I can describe it, but choose not to waste my time attempting to communicate with with a blind eye and deaf ear that can neither know nor perceive the truth of the matter. Not to mention that’s a pretty lame response in general considering the forum area we’re in.
There’s some amazing things going on out there that will likely never see the light of day on this forum. What does OEM warranty have to do with it? Most of the stuff being done here was never offered by Mazda. Let’s not forget that gem of an engine that was in the RX8 either.
for all you know an e-gate might still be going strong long after several sets of apex seals came and went
guess I better drop the Motec ecu idea too, because no manufacturer ever provided an ecu with a blank sheet that allows designing and developing your own custom firmware.
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I graduated with honours in a mech eng degree, worked at a National measurement institute with some ground breaking tech development and am entirely curious and engaged in learning about automotive and firearms tech especially but also in general. I don't need a refrigerator that ***** the bed when it loses internet connection though, for 95% of turbo users I believe these fall into that category. Surely if you are as clever as you like to make out you can articulate a use case that I can't replicate with a two port diaphragm gate, a solenoid or two and retail hobby level ecu's existing logic control/mapping strategies?
12-22-23, 03:07 PM
