Hybrid G

iTrader: (4)

I have been reading and searching the difference and the best choice and direction for my upgrade.

I have been locking at and wanting the BW9180 for a long time now and I was worried about having lag monster, I need spool and I wish I had more spool as it is now but I craving the power that holy **** when the right foot gets heavy.

Before we start my set up.........

S5 studded Half bridge 13b with fd rotation assembley
TDX61 turbo twin scroll with 1.15 ar
Gleeeeman dual waste-gate manifold
4" downpipe and exhaust to dual racing beat mufflers
1000cc primary and 2000cc secondary injectors with Aeromotive 340 pump
AEM smart coils running direct fire
Adaptronic 440d

with the above setup i made 529hp and 390tq @25psi with water meth

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/...psrlhfguji.mp4


What prompted this post is the new BW9174 and the plan to upgrade from the tdx61.

The goal is to make the same power or similar power at a lower boost pressure (less stress on motor) and not sacrifice spool if i could get a faster spool up than my tdx61 and sacrifice top end I will rather do that.

Now i know the SXE series turbo is the budget turbo compared to the EFR but is the EFR worth the extra $1500 for me is the question.

I am looking at the BW 9174 with 1.05 ar and S300 SXE 66/74 option with the 1.0 ar

Now compressor maps confuse me I cannot read them and Howard Colemans notes are helping but it seems that I am missing the basics to understand most of the information needed to compare spool time, efficiency and the correlation between that and max power.

I will appreciate any help and direction here

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Its hard to see the graph in the video and it looks like the pulls are started later in the RPM.

If you do a 4th gear pull from 2k rpms when do you see 15 and 25 psi?

On a side note do you have a pull with AFR? Are you logging fuel pressure ?

P.s. stress on the engine comes from power levels not PSI...

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

^This

Also, how about upgrading to the TDX61R? Should spool faster than your TDX61, will be a straight on bolt on affair, and its prices right in between the SXF and EFR turbos

The question is, will the SXE turbo (SXE62 "8376") spool characteristics be similar (better or worse) than the TDX61

Hybrid G

iTrader: (4)

Well I just seached and I cannot find my 2nd sheet so no afr I only have the graph and my tuner has not called me back yet

I also do not log fuel pressure........I may need to look into that.

I need to do another pull in the spring

Now with BW 9174 or S300SXE 66/74 how bad will my spool suffer?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

nice job. w the caveat that i DK if your dyno sheet is in STD or SAE, it looks like you are making 200 rwhp at approx 3900 which is good given your turbo. 340 isn't bad at 5000.
center of peak torque around 6300 works for me.

"The goal is to make the same power or similar power at a lower boost pressure (less stress on motor) and not sacrifice spool if i could get a faster spool up than my tdx61 and sacrifice top end I will rather do that....

wanting the BW9180 for a long time now and I was worried about having lag monster, I need spool and I wish I had more spool as it is now but I craving the power...

I am looking at the BW 9174 with 1.05 ar and S300 SXE 66/74 option with the 1.0 ar"


so you want to:

make the same power at a lower boost pressure but not sacrifice spool.

you mention the BW9180 and BW SXE 66.

the 9180 is a 97 pound per minute turbo good for approx 730 rotary rwhp SAE

the SXE66 is an 86 pound turbo good for 650 rotary rwhp SAE.

you want to make 530 hp which takes 70 pounds.

the question you really pose is can i run a larger turbo at a reduced output and make my 530 at reduced boost.

the answer is of course "yes" but... the turbo will add lag as you are powering a larger mechanism.

as to reduced strain on the engine (itself).... no. as Turblown correctly states, the "strain" on the engine relates to power which directly correlates to airflow in pounds not pressure. power comes from burning oxygen molecules. once in the engine it is all about the amount of oxygen and boost is not a factor.

flow always correlates w power.

whether your motor receives 70 pounds of air per minute from 20 or 30 SPI has absolutely nothing to do w the "strain" on the shortblock.

it sounds to me your turbo is working well. should you wish to upgrade i suggest either the BW EFR8374 if you want to spend the extra $ or the BW S300 SXE 62 which will make 550+.

the SXE 62 comp wheel is 22% smaller than the 9180 and 18% smaller than the 66.

if your current turbo has a comp wheel similar to the GT35/GTX35 the SXE 62 is 2.4% larger yet should max out at 580.

a final positive re the BW S300 SXE 63 is wider efficiency islands that lower IAT as well as reduce power needed to drive the turbo which near peak boost can be 100 horsepower.

here's the S300 SXE map which is better in the areas of surge and efficiency from the EFR8374 map due to an improved compressor cover. note the wide efficiency islands at 74 and 72%.

the red line is 25 psi and the blue line is 500 rotary rwhp SAE.



just for laughs here's the same marks on an SXE 9180 map...



at your max power level there is still another 39% unused flow which will always be a drag on your spool. it will be there at any boost you run, not only at max boost.

i think your best options are either to retain your turbo or go w the SXE 62.

Howard

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Hehehe, mentioned turbos sounds familiar

Like I said, his same exact turbo in BB configuration (the TDX61R), will improve spool time, and yield the same peak HP. As a bonus, is a drop in replacement to his current one, no new/modifying DP, intercooler pipes, oil/water lines.

Something tells me that OP is looking for a BW turbo, regardless.

Hybrid G

iTrader: (4)

Howard,

Thank you for your analysis, you made a few things click for me here

KNONFS,

thank you as well......and yes I am quite keen on the BW but...I think i will hold off and refine my current setup with more dyno results, I mean the car is stupid fast

I am chasing a feeling I had on in a previous platform, that big kick rev limiter just bouncing when the trubo comes on , it was just a wild beast, my current set up is a bit more civilized

I am also taking note of TDX61R and SXE62 but first lets wait or the snow to melt.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Lets see a dyno plot ( or a datalog from 4th gear) starting the pull at 2k rpms or less. You need to include the boost curve too. I know which turbo will make the only worthwhile difference as I obviously have a lot of first hand experience with our TDX turbos and efrs etc. I will say I have YET to see any type of porting increase response, big heavy overlap ports only seem to hurt response and low end tremendously.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"big heavy overlap ports only seem to hurt response and low end tremendously. "

big heavy overlap ports do hurt response and low end tremendously.

Howard

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Are you implying that its possible that a TDXR has 0 probabilities of out spooling/better transient response than the TDX version?

Only reason why I bring up the TDXR is because I want one, and its more affordable than the EFR lineup. No question that the EFR will outshine your TDX lineup, but it also cost almost twice as much.

Given that the OP is fine with current RWHP, and is looking to improve on spool/transition, wouldn't you agree that the TDXR will do that for him?

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Ive just switched from a tdx61 to an efr8374. Just in case no one has ever mentioned it, lol, the efr pedal response is fucken telepathic.

Rotate86

hahah the above comment is gold!

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

There is zero gain outside of transient response. Meaning if you do a pull in 4th gear you will reach peak psi at about the same rpm( within 50, bb being faster). Hardly worth the money for response. The BB does last longer at high boost( no thrust to give out). All JBs are pinned 360 thrust bearings now FYI. High boost refers to 25 plus psi. TDX in JB is hard to beat for price, still a good turbo for ewg budget setups. As always one must consider the entire package to get what you want. This is why its important to buy from someone with experience in building cars.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Interesting

Was under the impression that the BB counterpart would yield better spooling and transient response, everything else being equal.

eplusz

Lolll can't wait to get mine done!!

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Transient response is definitely better, the rest not so much.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Transient response is what its all about IMO

Hybrid G

iTrader: (4)

Well there is some awesome info here, and I have decided to keep my current setup and get more telemetry and then I cannot ignore the response of the efr 8374...so maybe 2017

turboe36m3

Is there no negative effect from the heat associated with the backpressure of the smaller turbo working harder to make the same power? Seems like there will be higher IAT from the smaller compressor being less efficient moving so much air. Also seems like the EGT and EBP will be higher from the motor trying to pass so much air through the smaller turbine. I would worry about a greater likelihood of detonation when running pump gas plus meth to make 550 rwhp at 30 psi versus 550 rwhp at 20 psi. What am I not quite understanding?

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

The strain on the engine is the same. The strain on the turbo is a different story.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

I think he is asking about heat stress because of increased intake temps, exhaust pressure, exhaust temps with a small urbo v large. ?

turboe36m3

Yes, that is my question.

Tuning4life

iTrader: (2)

It's all a balancing act and a lot of people have a goal that isn't really what they want I think.

For instance they want XXX WHP, but in reality they want the fastest car possible for X driving condition.

It is possible that a lower WHP car is faster than a higher WHP car and puts less stress on the engine.

A smaller turbo who boosts at lower rpms and puts out more power in the total RPM range will have higher engine temps, because you are boosting more at lower rpms having more WHP all over the RPM range which creates more heat and burns more fuel.

It's a difficult question to answer because everyone is looking at things in absolutes. 550WHP might be faster in a straight line when moving...perhaps not.

I do notice that a car that makes a flatter wider torque curve is easier to drive than a peaky top end torque monster for me.

Lastly, weight is always the best to lose, as it helps every aspect of the car. More power typically needs more weight to support the power. (braces of all sorts, beefier everything).

Nosferatu

and the stupid question of the day......is it new turbo time when the cool EFR eats a seal or something goes through the compressor or can you get it fixed reasonably like the garrett stuff and lower end BW?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"heat stress because of increased intake temps, exhaust pressure, exhaust temps with a small turbo v large."

if you don't have the correct instrumentation your answers will be theoretical.

i use thermocouples to log temps directly out of the turbo as well as at the stock location under the UIM.

thermocouples unlike other temp sensors are accurate within a couple degrees F and importantly to a few milliseconds (thousandth of a second). i suspect data from any other temp sensor including the "fast" ones.

i also digitally log exhaust back pressure as well as EGTs.

i will shortly evaluate a Borg Warner S300 SXE 62, and will run the turbo w a .91 hotside and then switch to a 1.0.

next up will be the 64 (actually 64.41) which is in the same smallish package and yet 600+ hp capable.

hopefully we will begin to answer some of these questions w real data.

Howard