radkins

I would like to share a bad experience I have had with a tuner that frequents the boards here named Tony Kutlu, (Badog). A few moths ago I set up an appointment to have a single turbo TO4S kit installed at the RX-7 Store and have my car tuned by Tony, who lives in Columbus. I have taken every precaution to make sure my 9 month old Pineapple engine could handle it. The install went great and called Tony up to do the tuning. He came over and we dyno tuned for an hour or two and put down about 430rwhp. He informed me that he had to run home for an hour or so, but would like to fine tune it a little more on the road. He told he I could drive the car around till he was free. I drove the car around for an hour or so and it felt great. The car had tons of power and nothing at all seemed wrong, but I figured that if he felt more tuning was necessary, then we should do it. After he was free, we started off on a Columbus highway to do fine tuning. We made our first stop, he made some changes and we were on our way. Immediately after the changes we did a half throttle run and noticed a stumble around 4-5K. “See if you can re-create that” he says. I pushed the throttle down half way and felt the car stumble again, and then heard a loud ping, and also felt it in the gear shift. We pulled over at a gas station and the car wouldn’t Idle. I knew in my gut that the engine had gone. I called Zavier and told him and he said to meet him at the shop and we would look at it, but Tony said he had to go home and asked to be dropped off at his car. I asked him if he intended on keeping the tuning fee of $400 if he blew the engine, and he said that we should find out if it is blown, then we would talk. We confirmed that the rear rotor had gone. There was talk of the timing being advanced too far, but we sent the engine back to Pineapple to find out for sure. In the meantime I again asked for a refund, and he kept telling me that it wasn’t his fault, although the car has been running great for the last 9 months, and is basically new under the hood and Zavier could find nothing on the car that failed. He again said that we would talk after we hear back from Pineapple about why the engine went. Pineapple finally got the engine and tore it apart and said that it indeed did blow from tuning, and that there was nothing wrong with the internals. Since then I have sent 2 e-mails and left messages for him and he refuses to return my calls or answer e-mails. I am just waring anyone who plans on using him as a tuner that he seems to be a shady character. Hopefully he will see this and respond as of why he feels he is not responsible, even though everyone else involved says he is.

twokrx7

iTrader: (1)

Hate to say it but a half throttle run pinging at 4-5k may not be a tuning issue. It is likely that the part of the map you popped at was not a "tuned by Tony" cell and even if it was it may not have been a fuel quality issue.

Suggest you find the original and tuned maps to compare. Do you recall the boost during your half throttle run?

radkins

Boost was about 15-16lbs. I'm not sure what you mean by original and tuned maps, or not being tuned by Tony, but he tuned my car for the stock twins before I went single. He was the only one that touched the maps on my car for the last year or so.

93redFD

I think if a tunner pops your motor you shouldnt have to pay for anything! Have you payed him yet?
On the other hand, your geting info from the people that built your motor, how easy would it be for them(pineapple) to say it wasnt there fualt?Im not bashing them im just using them for a exspression.
I hated it for you though, it seems that us rotorheads get fucked over the most Save up some money, get it back running, and find a new tuner. What does baddog have to say about this?

im in my car 2 months out of the year(supposed to a daily driver and the only car)problems=no engine, problems= broke, problem=I got fire when my motor blew becuase i couldnt get to work on time So im feeling you 100% about you situation radkins.

MeLoco

I would say this, it would be quite obvious that pineapple as good a guy as Rob is, is going to say it was a tuning issue, and Tony as good a guy as he is would say it a build issue. I'm sure Rob could absorb the costs more so than Tony but, the truth is this any time you take your car and go to tune it and get that last little bit out of it you run the risk of these things happening. I think it sucks for you, but that's part of the game every tuner out there knows the risks involved, and I've seen some of the so called "supertuners" tune motors only to have them pop a day later and say it wasn't there fault, but yet the motor ran fine for months before hand. Guess what there are too many variables to hold any one person to blame. I would also say that if it was a build issue it probably would have shown up within the first few hundred miles.The truth is your kinda stuck and your probably going to have to eat it. Should Tony give you your money back?, at the very least all it did was cost him some time, is he responsible though very hard to tell.

Carl Byck

What did Tony change just before the hesitation(likely timing, since it popped so low in rpms)? ) If the car ran properly, and he got a little more aggressive, and popped the motor, I'd say it is probably tuning, but, if he's a good tuner, I would think he explained the risks of what he was doing, and gave you the choice of leaving it alone, or trying for more. Did he take some time to study the maps after, or did he seem to know what was up? Also, Timing in my opinion ought to be done on the dyno (looking for more torque).
It seems to me it is a shared responsibility, if I were Tony, I would not charge you, simply based on the fact that you are out thousands of dollars, and he is out a couple hours, It is the "brotherly" thing to do. I would also think that Tony places a higher value on his reputation than 400.00. To continue, I would have thought that even if he is convinced that it is a build problem, he would post as such, and then announce his intention to not charge you. This way, he protects his reputation, keeps a customer, and does what I think most reading this feel is the right thing to do.
However it ends, Tony ought to post what he did, and give you your money back, This is a bad deal, but Rotarys are tough, and what works on one motor may pop another. Let's hear from Tony,
As an aside, what sort of gas were you running?

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Tuning fault or not, it takes two people to make the decision to go further than a good safe tune. You can't hold only the tuner responsible, the owner knows the risks and chooses to go further he is just as much to blame.

Carl Byck

So long as he mentioned the risk to the customer, according to Radkins, he wanted to do some "fine tuning", timing ought to be done on a dyno, don't you think?

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

There was no mention that timing was what was going to be addressed, even though some may feel that's what was being implied we weren't there and a motor can go on a dyno just as easy as on the street, a good tune will have been done on both, and remember this is just one side of it, I'm not sticking up for Tony but my opinion is simple this is between Tony and him and until it is resolved dragging it out here only agitates the situation. If and when it's over then voice how you feel.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

Timing should always be done on the dyno. You are guessing at timing when tuning on the street.

Jason

H2o

As stated above there was no mention of timing, as if that was what the fine tuning was going to be. You weren't there I wasn't there we don't know what was truly said.

Marcel Burkett

The whole situiation stinks , you know what cracks (and also agrivates the hell out of me !!!) me up ? , whenever a tuner F@#$%s up a motor , he is very quick to blame the motor , that is just wrong , why the hell dont they ever want to accept responsability ??, I have personally seen motors put together with all used "shitty " , out of spec parts and still run 11.0 secs and last for six months + , Yuh know why ????..... TUNING !!!.
As some of you might be able to tell , I have a REAL problem with **** like this , after all YOU are the one who puts up a sign , opens up a shop and advertises that you are a tuner , once you do that (and take my money !!!) you become liable , some guys try to cover their asses by stating that they are'nt to be held responsible .......,I stay the hell away from those guys 'cause they are already admitting that they are incapable of doing the job PROPERly !! , That guy is wrong , selfish and from what I've read , a SUPER SHITTY tuner , and even if he did not plan on taking responsibility he should have told you that up front , did he ??.
This is why I pay after the job is completed and I am getting what I want , a blown motor isn't what I would want , I did not pay you to **** up my motor , I could have done that myself for free !!!.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

H20
The timing Tony was using was to advanced for that motor. It doesnt matter where it blew up, its the fact it was going to blow either way. If it didnt happen while they were tuning it was going to happen not long after that.

Jason

SPOautos

I think part of the problem is everyone uses different people for different things. There are very little shops that actually build your engine, install your engine, and tune your engine....correctly. When you piece it all out to different people/shops there isnt one person that just knows everything about your car to make sound judgements.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Is there somwhere that the timing was mentioned or where it was at, I haven't seen it I'm just curious how you guys know it was at 19 degrees.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I've put together shitty motors and had them run 9's they didn't last too long but they were being used to work out all the bugs before I put the good motor in, and I've had perfectly good setups go south. The problem with what you are saying is simple, I take in your car I give it a once over and it looks OK but I do not know the history of the vehicle, I don't care what you say, or how you feel about it if I don't know how everything is on the car even the smallest thing could go wrong and I'm to be held resonsible for your lack of care on the vehicle NO, Most customers when they come in don't want to pay me to make sure everything is in top order, they just want the quickie, those guys sign a waiver. The cars I build from the ground up, ask around, if I mess something up I eat it. But you can't just blatently say Oh it blew up, your tuning it, it's your fault. There are too many things invovled to hold someone responsible just because.

Badog

I'm not at liberty to discuss details since my lawyer (and friends) said to keep my mouth shut for now.

I will not be victim to $2600 in extortion. Your use of threats and extortion are the issues, Ryan.

The facts are erroneous too.

stangkilr

what are u...a freakin computer...u say the same thing in every thread...stick up for yourself man...your reputation is completely shattered...

93 R1

he said he cant. I agree with ZeroR's statement

Broken09

iTrader: (1)

I can vouch for that.

As a side note Ryan I hope you guys get this all cleared up. It sucks to hear this kind of stuff, and it also at least for me is hard to determine where to lay blame if you can really blame anyone given the nature of the situation.
-Nic

hondah8er

Is this your lawyer talking or you?

Icemastr

iTrader: (2)

I cant believe so many of you are bashing on Badog only knowing one side of the story. All you know is what radkins has stated. All of the stuff I have read about Badog's tuning has been that he is very good, yet everyone quickly jumps on him. This whole situation of course sucks, but there are a lot of variables of what could have caused the failure. Stuff like this happens when you modify an engine. A fuel injector, the fuel pump or so many other different components could have failed in addition to what could have been too agressive timing.

I think Badog is well justified in not saying anything as it looks like this is quickly becoming a legal issue. If the error was Badogs fault I would expect at least a refund of the $400 paid for the tuning, but I doubt very many tuners out there, unless you are using them for a rebuild if that, would pay for the cost of the rebuild themselves.

in2twins

For the record, I take no side in this with regard to fault, but I still think if a car blows while someone is tuning it, the customer ought not to be charged for the tune. That said, not charging him might be construed as an admission of fault, if that were the case, I would understand the delay in refunding the fee. Peace to all, Carl