Apex seal of choice???
08-05-01, 01:35 PM
#26
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-Gordon
I've said it before and few others have repeated them selves over and over.....
The Mazda 3piece 2mm seals offer the best sealing !!! motors will always make more hp with them under the same conditions.
I've been using the Hurleys 3mm for over 2 years, closer to three actually. I've put motors together with 2mm Hurleys as well.
When you claimed in the past -25 inches of vaccum @ idle with the Hurley 2-piece seals in a street-ported engine you're only fooling yourself
The small advantage with the Hurleys is due to the softer material.
- they wear faster into used housings. actually they'll probably wear out of spec in less then 50Kmiles.
- when they break, they break into much smaller pieces and usually damage is almost nothing allowing the re-use of all the housings. Unless the seal springs find a way out
- they handle ~ 30 psi but 35 or higher I hear of them failing.
- I never experienced with them warping.
But, there's issues....one is the rough wear on the rotor housings and the other is with them breaking exactly on the end where it meets the corner piece. If opening the exhaust port width you will lessen the amout of seal that overlaps the exhaust port as it goes by. They seem to break exactly in the same spot!
Now...let's see.. the 2mm Hurley seals have been found to be weaker then the stock 2mm 3 pice seals by few guys from Canada and California ...*but* if the engine is tuned correctly then no problem with either.
Most of my personal experience has been with the Hurleys 3mm seals.
John D.
10th Ann Ed TurboII
10.80 @130mph
.
I've said it before and few others have repeated them selves over and over.....
The Mazda 3piece 2mm seals offer the best sealing !!! motors will always make more hp with them under the same conditions.
I've been using the Hurleys 3mm for over 2 years, closer to three actually. I've put motors together with 2mm Hurleys as well.
When you claimed in the past -25 inches of vaccum @ idle with the Hurley 2-piece seals in a street-ported engine you're only fooling yourself
The small advantage with the Hurleys is due to the softer material.
- they wear faster into used housings. actually they'll probably wear out of spec in less then 50Kmiles.
- when they break, they break into much smaller pieces and usually damage is almost nothing allowing the re-use of all the housings. Unless the seal springs find a way out
- they handle ~ 30 psi but 35 or higher I hear of them failing.
- I never experienced with them warping.
But, there's issues....one is the rough wear on the rotor housings and the other is with them breaking exactly on the end where it meets the corner piece. If opening the exhaust port width you will lessen the amout of seal that overlaps the exhaust port as it goes by. They seem to break exactly in the same spot!
Now...let's see.. the 2mm Hurley seals have been found to be weaker then the stock 2mm 3 pice seals by few guys from Canada and California ...*but* if the engine is tuned correctly then no problem with either.
Most of my personal experience has been with the Hurleys 3mm seals.
John D.
10th Ann Ed TurboII
10.80 @130mph
.
08-06-01, 10:37 AM
#27
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Gordon, I have hard data on Iannetti (ceramic), CSIRO (ceramic),Mazda 3mm (ferrous), Mazda 2mm (ferrous), RICE (Titanium), Mazda (6mm) carbon, Mazda (3mm carbon), RICE (3mm m2 tool steel one piece)...
I have used many types, made a few types and done testing in engines over a wide range of conditions to measure wear rates and durability. I have not tested Hurley seals at all...but know of people who run them.
Out of the "metal" seals I found nothing can beat the genuine mazda seal (2mm 3 piece)...to answer XSPOWER's comment, this is in circuit racing (endurance) testing, as I do not drag race, I would assume there is less stress involved in running an engine for 8 to 10 sec then shutting it down comparred to 20 to 25 seconds followed by 5 seconds backoff repeated 4 to 5 times a lap for over 50 laps? In these situations again I state that I have never seen a problem with the mazda 2mm seal, assuming that the water/oil/charge temp are with in reasonable limits.
I did notice a problem however with the 3mm Mazda seal in that I could not run as much ignition advance (retard 2 deg) and the engine did not make as much power as before with the 2mm seals (around 8 to 10bhp)....again though I had no reliablility problem with the seal, only the corner seals cause if the loads imposed on it cause of the seal design tend to crack after long high bhp use. I noticed this same failure with the Iannetti seal on the corner seal when using the solid (non expansion type ones).
I think the problem people have with the stock seal is that they are comparing an old engine with many miles on it (eg worn seals) and when it comes apart especially after the engine has had mods done to it as well, then they go gee the stock seals are ****!...well I have news for you, go buy the Innetti's like a customer of mine then go do the same amount of miles and you will find that if the engine is abused in any way that many of the critical parts will still look like **** (re not re-usable) and if the engine is abused you can still break these seals just as easily as a factory seal. Ask someone like Adam Sarawatari or Rodger Mandaville who have both run these (Iannetti) seals as well and they will tell you the same story. Ask me and I will tell you my experience of these seals...they are good but, as I said other parts of the engine will fail (wear out) before the stock mazda seal will and it will take more power than most people will ever dream of making!
The A&L RX7 used to make 550+rwhp@19psi@7800rpm with stock 2mm seals....
I make 490rwhp@15psi@8400rpm with 2mm seals and I circuit race my car & do high speed runs (long races & continuous throttle for 30+seconds)...
Combi port PP engine 800+rwhp using 2mm stock seals...why? cause they work.
Save your money for other mods, stock seals are fine.
Ps: This is just my hard data, Stick to thermodynamic/strenght limits and 2mm 3piece shall not break, exceed these limits and ANYTHING will break
I have used many types, made a few types and done testing in engines over a wide range of conditions to measure wear rates and durability. I have not tested Hurley seals at all...but know of people who run them.
Out of the "metal" seals I found nothing can beat the genuine mazda seal (2mm 3 piece)...to answer XSPOWER's comment, this is in circuit racing (endurance) testing, as I do not drag race, I would assume there is less stress involved in running an engine for 8 to 10 sec then shutting it down comparred to 20 to 25 seconds followed by 5 seconds backoff repeated 4 to 5 times a lap for over 50 laps? In these situations again I state that I have never seen a problem with the mazda 2mm seal, assuming that the water/oil/charge temp are with in reasonable limits.
I did notice a problem however with the 3mm Mazda seal in that I could not run as much ignition advance (retard 2 deg) and the engine did not make as much power as before with the 2mm seals (around 8 to 10bhp)....again though I had no reliablility problem with the seal, only the corner seals cause if the loads imposed on it cause of the seal design tend to crack after long high bhp use. I noticed this same failure with the Iannetti seal on the corner seal when using the solid (non expansion type ones).
I think the problem people have with the stock seal is that they are comparing an old engine with many miles on it (eg worn seals) and when it comes apart especially after the engine has had mods done to it as well, then they go gee the stock seals are ****!...well I have news for you, go buy the Innetti's like a customer of mine then go do the same amount of miles and you will find that if the engine is abused in any way that many of the critical parts will still look like **** (re not re-usable) and if the engine is abused you can still break these seals just as easily as a factory seal. Ask someone like Adam Sarawatari or Rodger Mandaville who have both run these (Iannetti) seals as well and they will tell you the same story. Ask me and I will tell you my experience of these seals...they are good but, as I said other parts of the engine will fail (wear out) before the stock mazda seal will and it will take more power than most people will ever dream of making!
The A&L RX7 used to make 550+rwhp@19psi@7800rpm with stock 2mm seals....
I make 490rwhp@15psi@8400rpm with 2mm seals and I circuit race my car & do high speed runs (long races & continuous throttle for 30+seconds)...
Combi port PP engine 800+rwhp using 2mm stock seals...why? cause they work.
Save your money for other mods, stock seals are fine.
Ps: This is just my hard data, Stick to thermodynamic/strenght limits and 2mm 3piece shall not break, exceed these limits and ANYTHING will break
08-06-01, 11:10 AM
#28
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Hey, I'm new to the rotary engine thing, I'll go ahead and ask. Do they make forged Apex seals? Wouldn't this make sence, it's light weight, stronger than cast parts, handle alot of thermo stress, and lot cheaper than ceramic seals. Would a forged apex seal be too hard to seal properly?
Are the stock apex seal reusable?? If they are, couldn't you just upgrade to a dual spring configuration for better sealing? Will this put too much tension on the rotor housing??
Please don't
me for asking?
Are the stock apex seal reusable?? If they are, couldn't you just upgrade to a dual spring configuration for better sealing? Will this put too much tension on the rotor housing??
Please don't
me for asking?
08-06-01, 01:38 PM
#29
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Hi Gordon,
Sorry, but -25 inches of vaccum is quite a bit for a streetported 13B at idle...... I get that under decelaration
who in this forum gets that kind of vaccum ??????
There's hard data out there between many seals, problem is that not too many people are willing to share the knowledge.
I've used the Hurleys(3mm) since they were first available. 1st set was purchased from RX7 Specialist from Canada for $ 450 and they claimed to be their own stuff !!! I later found out they were getting them from England ordered a set and were identical !!! ****, I was robbed..........
Well, they hold up ok to detonation and got used to run higher then 18 psi with them. I've broken them and they always see to break in the exact same spot, end of the seal where it meets the other corner end. Only the section that overlaps the exhaust port seems to be breaking. The nice thing is that don't cause any damage...my housings and rotors are over 3 years old+.
I probably have 15k-20K on my housing with the Hurleys and I noticed they wear them pretty bad. when stock seals are used the housing always have a smooth and mirrored surfaced. Hurleys are softer and seem to leave them rough and dull. The seals them selves were pretty worned down as well, don't think they last 50-60K miles in long run !!!
Last time I spoke to Mr Hurley he was aware of this problem an dI was not the only one complaining...
Stock seals (2mm or 3mm) have been hardened on the edge that rides on the rotor housings. Anyone could break a seal in half and notice this. Or grap a file and try filing both ends and then try the Hurleys...
No flames .....
John D.
10th Ann Ed TII
10.80 @ 130 mph
Sorry, but -25 inches of vaccum is quite a bit for a streetported 13B at idle...... I get that under decelaration
who in this forum gets that kind of vaccum ??????There's hard data out there between many seals, problem is that not too many people are willing to share the knowledge.
I've used the Hurleys(3mm) since they were first available. 1st set was purchased from RX7 Specialist from Canada for $ 450 and they claimed to be their own stuff !!! I later found out they were getting them from England
ordered a set and were identical !!! ****, I was robbed..........Well, they hold up ok to detonation and got used to run higher then 18 psi with them. I've broken them and they always see to break in the exact same spot, end of the seal where it meets the other corner end. Only the section that overlaps the exhaust port seems to be breaking. The nice thing is that don't cause any damage...my housings and rotors are over 3 years old+.
I probably have 15k-20K on my housing with the Hurleys and I noticed they wear them pretty bad. when stock seals are used the housing always have a smooth and mirrored surfaced. Hurleys are softer and seem to leave them rough and dull. The seals them selves were pretty worned down as well, don't think they last 50-60K miles in long run !!!
Last time I spoke to Mr Hurley he was aware of this problem an dI was not the only one complaining...
Stock seals (2mm or 3mm) have been hardened on the edge that rides on the rotor housings. Anyone could break a seal in half and notice this. Or grap a file and try filing both ends and then try the Hurleys...
No flames .....
John D.
10th Ann Ed TII
10.80 @ 130 mph
08-08-01, 09:50 PM
#31
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Hi Gordon-
Ok, you're looking for hard data but yet you're ignoring a few that are willing to share their own findings.
I know there has been alot of testing done on different types of apex seal materials and the Mazda seals always came on top. Many of the other metals were simply not compatable with the rotor housings, too rough on them. The only material that was accepted for high hp turbo motors were the ceramics but at a hefty price. Therefore many are still trying different metals as an alternative for less and that's when the Hurley seals came into the picture. At first I was told that the Hurleys were made of the same material as piston rings *but* I don't think so...
Your answer:
The Hurleys(3mm) do tolerate a bit more detonation and it's nice that if they break damage is minimal or none.
Now you're saying blown !!! I though the springs simply collapsed?? meaning your seals would still be intact .....(unless the motor was driven for awhile with collapsed springs which eventually seals would break).
With all the racing and miles I placed on the motor I began to notice the wear on both the rotor housings and on the seals themselves. The rotor housings were dull with light scratches from the seals. The seals(3mm) themselves were quite worn down, quite surprise.... I don't think a set of Hurleys would last 70-80k miles like the stock ones.
The tips on the Mazda seals have been hardened and that's why they will last past 100k miles and still be in spec (depeding on engine maintenance). Used rotor housings which have been mated to stock seals always shows a shiny and mirrored surface. This is one reason why they seal better...one other reason is the 3-piece design.
How many miles were on the motor with the Hurleys ??
How did your rotor housing looked ?
My motor has been with 3mm GLSE seals for some time now...
Why I changed ???? well I didn't like the fact that the seals were failing on the exact same spot one after the other !!!! I have 5 broken seals which look identical... two broke when my Nos bottle was past 2000psi of pressure and decided to ignore the $40-50 pressure gauge motor detonated 2nd gear, 3rd gear then I let go....on the return lane I got on it again (w/Nos) and Ka Boooommmmmm...... ****, bottle pressure was still @ 2000psi !!!!!! Shot over 100-hp shot into the motor with 50hp worth of fuel......another lesson learned:p
Gordon, I honeslty hope you have better luck then I've been having lately and keep us informed.
We all wanna make tons of hp without having to worry about those damn seals, right ??
Later,
John D
I know there has been alot of testing done on different types of apex seal materials and the Mazda seals always came on top. Many of the other metals were simply not compatable with the rotor housings, too rough on them. The only material that was accepted for high hp turbo motors were the ceramics but at a hefty price. Therefore many are still trying different metals as an alternative for less and that's when the Hurley seals came into the picture. At first I was told that the Hurleys were made of the same material as piston rings *but* I don't think so...
Your answer:
The Hurleys(3mm) do tolerate a bit more detonation and it's nice that if they break damage is minimal or none.
Now you're saying blown !!! I though the springs simply collapsed?? meaning your seals would still be intact .....(unless the motor was driven for awhile with collapsed springs which eventually seals would break).
With all the racing and miles I placed on the motor I began to notice the wear on both the rotor housings and on the seals themselves. The rotor housings were dull with light scratches from the seals. The seals(3mm) themselves were quite worn down, quite surprise.... I don't think a set of Hurleys would last 70-80k miles like the stock ones.
The tips on the Mazda seals have been hardened and that's why they will last past 100k miles and still be in spec (depeding on engine maintenance). Used rotor housings which have been mated to stock seals always shows a shiny and mirrored surface. This is one reason why they seal better...one other reason is the 3-piece design.
How many miles were on the motor with the Hurleys ??
How did your rotor housing looked ?
My motor has been with 3mm GLSE seals for some time now...
Why I changed ???? well I didn't like the fact that the seals were failing on the exact same spot one after the other !!!! I have 5 broken seals which look identical... two broke when my Nos bottle was past 2000psi of pressure and decided to ignore the $40-50 pressure gauge
motor detonated 2nd gear, 3rd gear then I let go....on the return lane I got on it again (w/Nos) and Ka Boooommmmmm...... ****, bottle pressure was still @ 2000psi !!!!!! Shot over 100-hp shot into the motor with 50hp worth of fuel......another lesson learned:p Gordon, I honeslty hope you have better luck then I've been having lately and keep us informed.
We all wanna make tons of hp without having to worry about those damn seals, right ??
Later,
John D
08-08-01, 11:57 PM
#32
The whole debate of choice of apex seals is going to be a topic that is going to go on forever! It's kinda like everyone's taste in women!
Everyone's opinion is always going to be based on what they have experience personaly. For me after trying just about evrything else out there I've settled back on the use of factory made apex seals. For the street and endurance I prefer the 2mm and for dragracing 3mm. I'm not saying that any one in particular is better than the other in any situation but that's just what I've experienced and prefer to use!
This is like the next VERY TOUCHY TOPIC of to ' DOWEL ' or not to!
Just my experience on the matter!
crispeed
87TII
9.67@141mph
608RWHP/460RWTQ
T-76@32psi
Everyone's opinion is always going to be based on what they have experience personaly. For me after trying just about evrything else out there I've settled back on the use of factory made apex seals. For the street and endurance I prefer the 2mm and for dragracing 3mm. I'm not saying that any one in particular is better than the other in any situation but that's just what I've experienced and prefer to use!
This is like the next VERY TOUCHY TOPIC of to ' DOWEL ' or not to!
Just my experience on the matter!
crispeed
87TII
9.67@141mph
608RWHP/460RWTQ
T-76@32psi
08-09-01, 08:10 AM
#33
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apex seals
Mazda has spent millions and millions of dollars developing the 2mm 3piece apex seal, I think Mazda has the advantage here don't you think.
Also 400rwhp is quite a small amount of power to be worrying about apex seals... why would you waste your money on these, underdeveloped apex seals.... when there are people all around the world using the mazda apex seals, makin 400rwhp++, driving their cars daily.
If you are havin problems with blowin engines, it is not the apex seals....it is your setup and tuning...even for enormous amounts of hp.
Also 400rwhp is quite a small amount of power to be worrying about apex seals... why would you waste your money on these, underdeveloped apex seals.... when there are people all around the world using the mazda apex seals, makin 400rwhp++, driving their cars daily.
If you are havin problems with blowin engines, it is not the apex seals....it is your setup and tuning...even for enormous amounts of hp.
Last edited by Guyver; 08-09-01 at 09:22 AM.
09-26-01, 08:39 PM
#34
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Hmm.. I was set on getting Hurley Race Seals.. but now, I'm not sure.. it's 50/50 now.. stock or hurleys.. damn!! 
How much can I get the seals.. I think Hurley is about $350 + about $70 shipping ordering direct..
What about the stock seals.. I don't have a MazdaComp membership.
How much can I get the seals.. I think Hurley is about $350 + about $70 shipping ordering direct..
What about the stock seals.. I don't have a MazdaComp membership.
09-27-01, 05:00 AM
#35
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As the guy two above this post said, How many rotary's have mazda made?
how many millions of dollars and hours of testing have mazda done into coming out with 3 piece 2 mm apex seals?
The only guys getting 25inmg of vaccuum are guys with the smallest goddamn ports with no overlap
how many millions of dollars and hours of testing have mazda done into coming out with 3 piece 2 mm apex seals?
The only guys getting 25inmg of vaccuum are guys with the smallest goddamn ports with no overlap
09-27-01, 11:42 AM
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There are many applecations where the stock seals adiquite. You say that Mazda spent millions on the 3 piece 2mm steel seals. Ford spends millions of dollars on cast pistons, does that mean they are better than forged?
If you were at sevenstock you would have heard Koby talk about how all of Mazda's resources were used to bring home the win at LeMans. This includes designing and testing of hand made ceramic apex seals.
But, I'm not even saying that Ceramics are best, just trying to illustrate a point. Carbon seals are probably the best choice for high RPM non-turbo applications.
The one disadvantage that steels seals have is they will chew up your turbo when they let go.
IMNSHO, stock seals are always a better choice than Hurrley's.
-Dom
If you were at sevenstock you would have heard Koby talk about how all of Mazda's resources were used to bring home the win at LeMans. This includes designing and testing of hand made ceramic apex seals.
But, I'm not even saying that Ceramics are best, just trying to illustrate a point. Carbon seals are probably the best choice for high RPM non-turbo applications.
The one disadvantage that steels seals have is they will chew up your turbo when they let go.
IMNSHO, stock seals are always a better choice than Hurrley's.
-Dom
09-27-01, 06:44 PM
#37
Old [Sch|F]ool
Hey now, there are people running 11's and 10's with Ford factory cast pistons... (why bother with better when the factory block can only handle 600hp before blowing the main webs through the oil pan?) Ugh this all reminds me why I got AWAY from boingers.
Back to the topic at hand, I'd always thought that the Hurley seals' design seemed odd, with what should be an end piece ending up to be 1/4th the length of the seal. Wouldn't that cause separation problems when the seal "self-adjusts" its length? And then there's the issue of poor support when passing over the exhaust port, which Boostn7 seems to have confirmed my suspiscions the hard way... so it seems that the Mazda 3pc seals have every advantage but price. (Hurleys being markedly cheaper)
Here's a question I've asked many times, and nobody can seem to answer. What are the engine speed limits with the 3pc seals? It's been pounded into my head that you should never, ever exceed 8500 with 3mm 2pc iron seals for any length of time (with reports of people blowing engines that were zinged to 8800 on a mis-shift! runs fine 'till it's shut off, then it never restarts) When I ask about the 2mm 3pc seals, all I get is "well, it's probably higher" or "hmm, uh, i dunno".
I'd be willing to change from a 12A to a 13B if it means I can rev higher without needing carbon seals (NON turbo app, this one), and being a rabid 12A supporter that's saying a lot.
(why bother with better when the factory block can only handle 600hp before blowing the main webs through the oil pan?) Ugh this all reminds me why I got AWAY from boingers.Back to the topic at hand, I'd always thought that the Hurley seals' design seemed odd, with what should be an end piece ending up to be 1/4th the length of the seal. Wouldn't that cause separation problems when the seal "self-adjusts" its length? And then there's the issue of poor support when passing over the exhaust port, which Boostn7 seems to have confirmed my suspiscions the hard way... so it seems that the Mazda 3pc seals have every advantage but price. (Hurleys being markedly cheaper)
Here's a question I've asked many times, and nobody can seem to answer. What are the engine speed limits with the 3pc seals? It's been pounded into my head that you should never, ever exceed 8500 with 3mm 2pc iron seals for any length of time (with reports of people blowing engines that were zinged to 8800 on a mis-shift! runs fine 'till it's shut off, then it never restarts) When I ask about the 2mm 3pc seals, all I get is "well, it's probably higher" or "hmm, uh, i dunno".
I'd be willing to change from a 12A to a 13B if it means I can rev higher without needing carbon seals (NON turbo app, this one), and being a rabid 12A supporter that's saying a lot.
09-27-01, 08:49 PM
#38
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
peejay, I am using 13B 3piece 2mm seals in a turbo PP and it makes max power at 10000rpm and takes revs in excess of 10500rpm. with the right clearance to the slot there is no problem running them to this rpm.
09-27-01, 10:34 PM
#40
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Hey Rice racing,you said that "The A&L RX7 used to make 550+rwhp@19psi@7800rpm with stock 2mm seals"???
Adam made that much horse power with only 19psi?With nitrous???
Adam made that much horse power with only 19psi?With nitrous???
09-28-01, 01:21 AM
#41
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Originally posted by 1FAST7
Where can i get the mazda apex seals, 2mm 3pc??? Is 2mm 3pc better than 3mm 2pc? thanks
1FAST7
Where can i get the mazda apex seals, 2mm 3pc??? Is 2mm 3pc better than 3mm 2pc? thanks
1FAST7
09-29-01, 04:45 PM
#42
Old [Sch|F]ool
THANK YOU RiceRacing! (Finally, a straight answer... )
What are the part numbers? Are they the same as the part numbers Mazdatrix lists on their website? Since I can get dealer parts at cost then I could probably get them even cheaper than Hurleys.
Damn, looks like I'll have no more excuses about the FC in the garage... time to attack with wrenches flyin'.
)What are the part numbers? Are they the same as the part numbers Mazdatrix lists on their website? Since I can get dealer parts at cost
then I could probably get them even cheaper than Hurleys.Damn, looks like I'll have no more excuses about the FC in the garage... time to attack with wrenches flyin'.
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