Snook

iTrader: (12)

Guys I'm building an engine for 500-600rwhp and need to know which kit I should order.

A lot of info out there on which apex seals to use but what about the rest of the kit?

I want to replace everything in the engine other than bearings if they are good, is there a good go to kit that's fairly priced?

Then which apex, corner, side seals do you guys prefer and why? I posted here because I want to hear from the high HP guys, thank you!

Snook

iTrader: (12)

I know it's a boring topic any insight on what kit to buy? Or mix matching between oem and aftermarket?

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

The Single Turbo section isn't exactly the best place to ask about engine rebuilds..

Even so, what exactly do you mean by "everything in the engine bay"?

Other than the apex seals, I would stick with OEM parts from Ray Crowe (Malloy). It's hard to beat Mazda's own parts.

Lapping/nitrating services can be provided by Chip Ursu (Chips Motorsports), as can any lightening/balancing/clearancing of your rotors if you want.

IMO, you SHOULD be replacing all seals (soft/hard) and checking/setting all clearances regardless when you rebuild any motor.

Snook

iTrader: (12)

Well I want what is working for the high HP guys.

That's what I was referring to, should I get a mazda oem rebuild kit with the exception of the apex seals?

I know the aftermarket seals are using Viton, did mazda change to the same or an upgraded material for the coolant seals too or should I go aftermarket there?

So you would use the factory side seals and corner seals even for 500-600 rwhp?

Thanks for bearing with me I have never ordered internal engine parts before. I'm having the engine built by a rotary mechanic don't worry. But he is not up to speed on single turbos and high HP applications so I need to buy the right parts.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

A similar question of silicon verses Viton Oil Control Ring seals recently came up on another forum I frequent. I'll quote a VERY smart dude from over there:

(To clarify, the "long mileage motor" he's referring to was a 200k + N/A motor)

If everything is clearanced properly I really don't see why the OEM FD corner and side seals wouldn't work. Unless your seals are binding (ALL clearances not being observed) then I wouldn't expect problems. Your apex seals are going to be the ones seeing the most abusive pressures really.

I ran 489whp on a motor that PFS built and it WOULD have been fine if Ray (Wilson) hadn't been lazy about minding the gap that the side seal sat in (not the clearance between the corner and side seals, but the actual slot itself), as it was the seals bound in place and shattered.

But I'm not a "professional" by any means... I've helped build two motors, and done my own solo build once for a total of three builds. I think most people go with the Viton soft seals because they're a bit cheaper than OEM, I'm not sure by how much though as I've always just bought from Malloy.

Snook

iTrader: (12)

Thanks a lot for your feedback. I will also talk to the engine builder and get his help.

Any preference on apex/corner seals? I'll be using 2mm, I know there are a lot of choices, stock, goopy, rotary aviation super seals, atkins cryo treated...

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

I like the oem 2 piece seals.

best seal to housing interface of them all.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

I would absolutely stick with 2mm apex seals. The ONLY reason I'd go 3mm is if the apex seal slot, on the rotor itself, is worn beyond spec for 2mm seals. (And even then.. I'd probably just buy a better condition rotor )

Going 3mm is/was bandaid to compensate for knock breaking the 2mm seals that were available a decade ago.


The biggest thing when it comes to apex seal choices is that there is NOT a perfect seal for every aspect. You need to decide what is most important to you and pick the seal that performs best in that area, without sacrificing too much elsewhere. I'm sure you can find PLENTY of information on different apex seals if you do some research.

Do you want a seal that won't break no matter how badly you knock? Expect it to wear your housings prematurely (and possibly cause dented rotors if knock DOES get that bad). Do you want a seal that will be gentle as can be on your housings? Expect it to let go if you run lean and get bad knock. etc., etc., etc. It's like the old saying about getting work done to your car: You have Fast, Quality, and Inexpensive... But you can only pick two

7krayziboi

iTrader: (15)

how many clicks got your engine ?
im wondering bcuz changing bearing is pretty cheap
and even if they show little copper , changing them would
make you feel better no ?

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

My observation have been.


OEM 2 piece can risk breaking under detonation and destroying some stuff.

Or buy some aftermarket seals and knowingly destroy your seals, housings, rotor slots and die a quick death.

If its a street car I would no doubt go oem. If you want to race the car and know you will rebuild often and want the protection of not destroying the turbo then go aftermarket, but I would probably still go oem.

Shainiac

iTrader: (7)

I've been using Atkins seals for almost 10 years with great results.
My current apex seals have been in 4 different engines. The housings always look great when I tear one down.
I’ve only ever pulled them apart to change the porting or replace cracked irons.
They’ve been easy on housings and have survived more than I would have expected.
Their kits are really nice. They use only OEM Mazda side seals, side seal springs, corner springs, and apex seal springs. Only the apex and corner seals and soft seals are aftermarket.

Their soft seals are also a bargain. It’s $125 for their soft seal kit which includes viton coolant seals and all the o-rings to seals up a short block, or $160 for the soft seal kit with viton oil control rings and front/rear main seal. When I’m tearing down a motor to port or fix something minor, I generally just use one of these kits. I’ve also reused their coolant seals with no issues.

I would guess that there are probably better apex seals out there, but I don’t think anyone can beat Aktins for value.

Snook

iTrader: (12)

Thanks a lot, what do you think of the Cryo treatment on Apex seals from Atkins?

Shainiac

iTrader: (7)

I wouldn't bother. The super hard seals like RA Supers tend the wreck housings and not break in easily. With standard atkins, I notice that after only a couple hundred miles, a new engine will start easier and pull more vacuum.

AX75F92

iTrader: (7)

I wouldn't worry about cryo...but look into WPC.

Snook

iTrader: (12)

What is wpc

evo_koa

iTrader: (2)

^ it is an electrochemical process that is applied to engine parts. Mazdatrix has a section on their website that goes into detail on the process

Marf

Is it electro chemical?

Just looks to be a type of shot-peening

What is WPC?

evo_koa

iTrader: (2)

^ my bad. I was thinking of "flex armor" which is the process that Pettit Racing does. sorry!

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

I'm wasn't happy with any of the "rebuild kits" anyone offers so I piece together my own from various sources. Mazda oem for just about everything but the apex seals. The stock seals work great until you detonate, then trash the motor. I use RX Parts seals exclusively on everything but stock cars. They don't trash the housings either. Make sure you use the NF01 side seal and corner seal springs. They have Inconel and are much more resilient to heat than the cheaper Tll stuff many "shops" use. OEM coolant seals and oil control rings work fine but if you are building a E85 motor or want more reassurance Pineapple Viton coolant oring kit and Atkins Viton oil control rings. For bearings Mazda oem yellow stamp. They are larger clearance and therefore retain more oil.