Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I love these High Octane videos.. I have another dvd that has that famous HKS single turbo scene on it.

Nihilanthic

Why not go put a rotary and a v8 in two identical cars?

Oh, wait... that would be scientific.

If one car is sufficiently lighter than the other or better handling even with less power it will win - but thast not comparing the ENGINE, its one CHASSIS vs another.

Put both engines in the SAME car, otherwise your comparing two seperate packages, not the engine vs the engine. What are the race weights for the two cars? Any slalom speeds or skidpad ratings?

Until that variable is isolated, this is pretty unconvincing. Its also pretty childish to call a v8 inferior when it makes more power with less CFM of air

kukri

OF COURSE rx7 will beat a ford falcon around a course..why not use a corvette race car or v8 rx7??? Why race cars with ...1000lbs weight difference around the track????

EJayCe996

I think the both of you missed the point. It was a rotary from its original(race modified)chassis vs a v8 from its original(race modified) chassis. The point I saw going across was to prove to those hardcore v8 guys that will not touch an import even if it had a v8 swap in it that something smaller could hang with it. Its not like they personally bashed the v8 like most of the guys on this forum do. They wanted to do an "end all debate" face-off. Its not like it was a Corvette v8, or 2.3T, rx-7 so why does it bother you so much? BTW what type of block is the Falcon's 5.4L v8? Is it all aluminum? If not, don't get all fired up about this particular v8 getting beaten as it is not the one most of the v8 swappers do.

kukri

Some nub up there said that "V8s have come far." That wasn't the V8...that was the Car and driver.

Nihilanthic

YOURE STILL COMPARING A ENGINE/CHASSIS TO A ENGINE/CHASSIS, AND THEN SAYING THE ROTARY WON. Unless its the same exact car, just with two different engine/tranny combos (and a diff length driveshaft, of course) with the engine mounted flush against the flywheel, its not a fair comparison. Why?

Because youre comparing a large amount of variables against another large amount of variables, and then claming the "rotary" beat "the v8". You have to ISOLATE the engine variable before you can say one thing beat the other. All the other variables, weight, suspension geometry, tuning, tire size and compound, etc, all matter. You cant just discard them.

The Rotary powered CAR beat the v8 powered CAR. Also, nobody here is questioning a lot of the chassis that v8s come in are inferior. But, again... dont confuse variables here.

You really need to go ask a science teacher about this... because this didnt prove jack ****. It proved a falcon got owned by a rx-7, not one engine beating another. If you want to make it "rotary vs v8" which a lot of people here seem to want to do, then make it rotary vs v8, not two totally different cars.

BTW, what are these "hardcore v8 guys" you speak of? And, uh...

That seems to be that some anti-import guys dont want to deal with a different CHASSIS. This was a case of the rotary CHASSIS beating that Falcon CHASSIS. Everyone here getting off on the rotary when you yourself right there that this is about not touching an import doesnt make sense. Is it about the rotary, or is it about that some "v8 guys" dont like import Chassis's?

It gets vague, garbled, and confusing when the variables being measured or compared change constantly or tons of them get thrown in that arent addressed and the people trying to argue try to tunnel-vision on one variable, that isn't isolated.

If you tried to prove that a lighter chassis doesnt need as much power to hang with a heavier one that doesnt handle as well, then, well you proved it. Me and Kukri never doubted that. We just dont realy give a damn about sticking with a rotary or not.

P.S. - the narrator guy has got the most annoying voice Ive ever heard. He sounds like that aussie/kiwi **** who was harking mail order products for infomercials... except more like the guy that MadTV used to make FUN of him. Who is gonna say a rotary is superior to a piston engine when it needs more CFM airflow to make the same power as a piston engine, is thermodynamically inefficient, and does a poor job of burning all of the fuel/air charge to even try to use the heat to turn the E-shaft?

kukri

Sure lets race that same FC Racecar against a Civic 4 cylinder.. rotary will pwn again...rotary cant looose

mazda6guy

iTrader: (1)

Bow Down to the almighty 12A turbo. Cool vid

snub disphenoid

It can, it's just nobody bothers to notice when it does.

jamespond24

iTrader: (13)

That was an awesome video!!

mark57

This is hardly a fair fight although it's fun to watch.

Recently, I have taken rides in 2hotrods's well-sorted modded LSx-powered '93 FD and cewrx7r1's incredible GT35R street-ported '93 FD. Both scream sweetly to big-power redline; that counts for something.

While Chuck's car could easily take a podium finish in SCC USCC-type combat on any given day, Rick needs a little more window dressing to do the same.

EJayCe996

Dude, you need to calm down. I did in fact state the "rotary and v8 in their original CHASSIS" as you've so stated. By "hardcore v8 guys" I didn't quite know a better way to put it as a domestic here isn't a domestic outside of the USA. Yes, I've heard it all before, I know rotaries get bad gas mileage, are thermodynamically inefficient, etc. I did all of this research WELL before I considered buying an RX-7, and I purchased mine a year ago when I was 19. Hell, I even wrote a research paper on the rotary engine in high school as it was the only thing that I had an interest in writing about. Also, no where, in my post, did I state "rotary won over the v8."
Finally, the wording of this sentence of yours makes no sense either, I meant this little battle was a "heads up" to the v8 guys/domestics(In their original chassis as I stated in my first post) that want no part of an import: engine and chassis.

Look, I'm not here to defend the rotary. I like all performance cars, regardless of price, engine, chassis, looks, etc. Each one brings a little something different to the table. The fun of it all is to overcome/mask each car's weaknesses and fully exploit its strengths.

adictd2b00st

great vid! too bad it has to turn into a drama fest cause EVERYTHING mentioning a v8 has to be argued on here. just enjoy the video and get on with your lives, geesh. this is a ROTARY board so no matter how much u try to plead your case people are still not gonna agree with u

snub disphenoid

So everyone here is supposed to go along with the mantra "ROTARY KANNOT LOESE!!!$@!@!1"?

adictd2b00st

nope, i didn't say that. what i'm saying is, what would u expect if say.......someone went onto the corvette forum, preaching that the rotary is better than an LS1 ? u think they'd really give him the time of day?

i can respect any car thats got some time/money into it, we all know both those engine options in an rx7 are fast, i don't think anyone is ever arguing that point. but everyone has different taste, and when your on a ROTARY board your not gonna get very far trying to change their minds.

kinda get what i'm saying?

Nihilanthic

1.Its a RX-7 board not a rotary board. The domain name is www.RX7Club.com

2. Anyone who says a rotary is superior gets hit by the facts pretty quickly. Even if thier own head is as dense as a black hole anyone who can understand what is being discussed can see it for themself.

2a. Replacing a v8 with a rotary... ho hum, you might lose some weight, even after you put on a turbo kit and oil coolers to support the turbo to have the same power as the v8, at the cost of losing N/A response, the much broader powerband, the low end torque, the reliability, ability to work on the engine with it still in the car, and much worse gas mileage. And you also wont be able to make the same amount of power as a v8 with the same amount of money and the same amount of reliability. This has been addressed over, and over, and over.

3. the posts in this thread about rotary > v8 is what got me ticked, as well as the antagonistic tone of the video and that ******* kiwi and his tone. GAWD. If the intent was "the rotary in a rx-7 chassis can beat a some v8/stock chassis combinations" then well, great. But some people in this thread, and that sheepfucker of a narrator in the video made it a rotary>v8 contest, and thats why I got ticked enough to post.

Nobody here is doubting the RX-7 chassis is the best bang for your buck, period. Why else do you think someone would want to put a v8 in a rx-7 chassis?

mark57

Post photos of your car's engine bay.

adictd2b00st

u need to get out more and not take things so personal haha

and yes, its an rx7 club but 95% of the owners on here have what under the hood......

recon fd

great vid!!!! love the way they pertray the "V8" person and the "rotary" person. Funny stuff.

To bad it had to be ruined by cat fighting. O'well!!!! As is life

josh

powrdby13B

Uh... I think rotaries are superior.. Aren't they like twice as efficient as piston engines because of the way their internals are designed? Last I heard the only reason GM didn't continue to use them after their experimental cycle in the 50-60's was because they couldn't figure out how to make them reliable.. which is what we do on this site. So, with an engine, I would say efficiency = superiority. Pound for pound (in terms of cast iron AND gas) the rotary makes more power. We can also handle more boost by default. Does that answer the efficency question?

Now, back to the video... I think it rocked... However, I must've missed how ******* SERIOUS it was when i watched it.. I thought it was just kind of a fun thang LoL

EDIT: missed something... If you put a V8 in a rx chassis you **** EVERYTHING up.. The extra (200?) lbs of engine totally ***** up the way the suspension and everything works... All of a sudden your 50/50 weight distribution becomes more like 65/35.. A rx chassis with a V8 and another $1500 worth of suspension mods might be good

powrdby13B

Hey... an afterthought before i head to work... Doesn't the rotary require less displacement to make the same amount of power? Compression aside (because we got BOOST), we would have to use LESS gas if we use more air (and it's common knowledge that we use less gas), so wouldn't that make us MORE efficient? We have LOWER displacement - meaning less of both - but if we need more air, we need WAY less gas, right? You can't argue with that...
And on another point, to make it identical, you would need the exact same chassis, suspension setup, and everything with two motors that make the exact same amount of BHP and torque. Then the rotary would have FAR superior handling and use a ton less gas. Both cars having the same amount of power would also mean that NEITHER had a real advantage speed wise. Interesting point, eh?

uRizen

iTrader: (2)

Actually, V8's are more thermally efficient which helps the all-around performance of the engine, but when it comes to turbos, the rotary makes up for it with it's very strong exhaust pulses, high revving, and weight.

I don't really think one engine is actually superior then the other, it comes down to preference, and I personally prefer rotaries.

Nihilanthic

*Sigh* flames are a comin', but not from me this time

The 13b is not a 1.3 liter engine in the sense that youre used to. In one revolution of the e-shaft the engine sucks in 1.3 liters of air. But, all the piston engines need two revolutions to get their rated displacement. So, for the purposes of all the math, equivilant ratings, etc, the 13b is a 2.6 liter engine.

In REALITY, its a 3.9 liter engine that just goes 50% slower than a piston engine more than a 1.3 liter engine that goes twice as fast, because it takes three revolutions for all parts of the engine to go through a complete combustion cycle.

But, then again, 2.6 liters for 2 revolutions, 1.3 liters for one revolution, and 3.9 for three revolutions is all the same thing - its a matter of splitting hairs because of the # of combstion chambers a 13b has... 6, each of which sucks in .65 liters of air assuming 100% volumetric efficiency.

Now, that said, behaving as a 2.6 liter engine, its somewhat thermodynamically inefficient - for one it really cant ignite all of the fuel air charge (hence why that one spark plug fires twice ) and because of its geometry it tends to not use heat as efficiently as a piston engine. Less of it is used to move the rotor in a rotary engine than is used to move the piston in a piston engine, and more of it gets into the engines oil and water than in a piston engine.

However, not using all the heat to move the e-shaft means it has nice hot exhaust gas - that heat, coupled with peripherial ports giving it sharp exhaust pulses helps to spool up a turbo pretty well, but a lot of that might be psychosomatic becuase its considered to be a 1.3 liter engine, and not really a 2.6. Id like to see a 2.5 liter Scoobie or a ford 2.3 stroked to 2.5 using a GT35R and contrast/compare spoolup to see how much water that theory holds personally, but thats outside the scope of this post.

Anyway, all that said can be summed up in practical terms: 1. a rotary uses more fuel than a piston engine to make the same power 2. a rotary needs more relative CFM airflow than a piston engine to make the same amount of power.

The tradeoffs of all of that, however, is that a rotary is a very small and pretty light engine, and its inherantly a little rev machine. However, to get to real high rpms (you cant add displacement to a rotary except adding another rotor, afterall...) you need to port the housings and upgrade the e-shaft and stationary gear depending on how high you want to go and what 13b youre using.

That said, Mazdas rumoed (or is it announced yet?) "16b" (or 16g, I honestly forgot) holds promise. They finally felt like making the rotors wider along the axis the e-shaft rotates around and give it some displacement (equivilance of a 3.2 liter 4 stroke piston engine) AND increase the efficiency of the engine because the combustion chambe is more 'square' - giving it less RELATIVE surface area to lose heat into the engine, and less of a RELATIVE distance to travel agains the hot side of the peripherial housing until it hits the exhaust ports.

But, there are a few things Im wondering - how do side exhaust ports go with turbos? Id think it wouldnt spool as well as a peripherial exhaust port would, but youd get more efficiency - and has mazda tried new metallurgy to help keep the heat in the engine and out of the water jacket yet?

Anyway, rotaries have their tradeoffs, just like almost any engine out there - but the sooner you know what it really is the sooner you can realistically know what to do with it.

EJayCe996

This rumor has been debunked for a while and no one should still believe that claim true today. A few LS1 FD owners have corner weighed their cars and yes they weigh more, but you can actually take off a zero from that weight claim of yours and you'll have the average weight difference you'll see on all of them. Now that is the difference over a 13b-rew and LS1, its probably 45-70lbs over an N/A 13b. Now if you're dropping in an old-school all iron block v8, then yea you're lookin at 200ish lbs range, give or take a few tens or twenties. I love the rotary, but I prefer the proper facts out there for the possible rx-7 newbies surfing through these forums so they don't go spouting claims that are false and making our club look like a joke.

Nihilanthic

BTW, the worst weight Ive ever seen in a FC was... uh, 54/46? LT1 and SBC are for all purposes the same, alu heads and iron block... theres a LT1 put in a 10thAE that is 60 lbs heavier ON THE *** than the front, and Kukri's SBC (with aluminum heads, and a carb even!) out autocrossed a Z06 and a STi.

So theres the pudding, its got some proof in it, want summore? lol.