Rtek AFR Tuning methods
07-16-10, 01:46 AM
#126
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Alright guys so my real rtek experience begun today...I installed the 740cc primaries and 1000cc secondaries...setup up the ECU with the 720cc/720cc and scaled the var res input for my wideband. Started like a champ. But as usal, as soon as it warmed up whenever I would hold partial throttle the car would just fall on its face and go as lean as in the 20's. My diagnostics said my 02 sensor is bad, it has 0 miles on it.
So I unplugged my pressure sensor like I always have to and the car ran normal again so it was off to driving and datalogging. Surprisingly enough the car drives smother than it did before even though my injectors are larger than the ecu expects. Can't feel the secondaries kick in at all which really caught me by surprise BUT, when it boosts, I logged as low as an 8.87 AFR at 12 psi
....sluggish as hell too 
. But it just proves how good the fuel system is working.
Anyways, to the above post about air intake temps. Ambient temp was 73F, my air intake temp stayed right around 112-118F while cruising and would drop into the 108ish degrees during short 3rd gear pulls. But while sitting they would get up to about 125F....I'm debating front mount now
So I unplugged my pressure sensor like I always have to and the car ran normal again so it was off to driving and datalogging. Surprisingly enough the car drives smother than it did before even though my injectors are larger than the ecu expects. Can't feel the secondaries kick in at all which really caught me by surprise BUT, when it boosts, I logged as low as an 8.87 AFR at 12 psi
....sluggish as hell too . But it just proves how good the fuel system is working.Anyways, to the above post about air intake temps. Ambient temp was 73F, my air intake temp stayed right around 112-118F while cruising and would drop into the 108ish degrees during short 3rd gear pulls. But while sitting they would get up to about 125F....I'm debating front mount now
When you were driving with the pressure sensor unplugged did your boost gauge work correctly? And the data log showed changes for the MAP value?
07-16-10, 04:08 AM
#127
But no, once I disconnected the map sensor the factory boost gauge did not work and the MAP value during datalogging stayed at 15.8 vacuum. I know this isn't good because the computer can't pull timing for boost but I figured that is better than running 20+ lean AFR's for the time being until I can find a solution. And for your other statement, it actually only does this once the car is warmed up oddly enough. A guy in my thread in the 2nd gen forum 'lastphaseofthis' said he fixed it by installing an FD fuel pump because his would drop to less than 5psi when his lean symptoms occured...maybe it's time for a fuel pump rewire?
07-16-10, 09:03 AM
#128
I'm not trying to thread jack Nick d TII, lemme know if you want me to take this discussion elsewhere...
But no, once I disconnected the map sensor the factory boost gauge did not work and the MAP value during datalogging stayed at 15.8 vacuum. I know this isn't good because the computer can't pull timing for boost but I figured that is better than running 20+ lean AFR's for the time being until I can find a solution. And for your other statement, it actually only does this once the car is warmed up oddly enough. A guy in my thread in the 2nd gen forum 'lastphaseofthis' said he fixed it by installing an FD fuel pump because his would drop to less than 5psi when his lean symptoms occured...maybe it's time for a fuel pump rewire?
But no, once I disconnected the map sensor the factory boost gauge did not work and the MAP value during datalogging stayed at 15.8 vacuum. I know this isn't good because the computer can't pull timing for boost but I figured that is better than running 20+ lean AFR's for the time being until I can find a solution. And for your other statement, it actually only does this once the car is warmed up oddly enough. A guy in my thread in the 2nd gen forum 'lastphaseofthis' said he fixed it by installing an FD fuel pump because his would drop to less than 5psi when his lean symptoms occured...maybe it's time for a fuel pump rewire?
let me know how your fp test goes
07-16-10, 11:20 AM
#129
I'm not trying to thread jack Nick d TII, lemme know if you want me to take this discussion elsewhere...
But no, once I disconnected the map sensor the factory boost gauge did not work and the MAP value during datalogging stayed at 15.8 vacuum. I know this isn't good because the computer can't pull timing for boost but I figured that is better than running 20+ lean AFR's for the time being until I can find a solution. And for your other statement, it actually only does this once the car is warmed up oddly enough. A guy in my thread in the 2nd gen forum 'lastphaseofthis' said he fixed it by installing an FD fuel pump because his would drop to less than 5psi when his lean symptoms occured...maybe it's time for a fuel pump rewire?
But no, once I disconnected the map sensor the factory boost gauge did not work and the MAP value during datalogging stayed at 15.8 vacuum. I know this isn't good because the computer can't pull timing for boost but I figured that is better than running 20+ lean AFR's for the time being until I can find a solution. And for your other statement, it actually only does this once the car is warmed up oddly enough. A guy in my thread in the 2nd gen forum 'lastphaseofthis' said he fixed it by installing an FD fuel pump because his would drop to less than 5psi when his lean symptoms occured...maybe it's time for a fuel pump rewire?
I definitely wouldn't be running w/o a map sensor. Might I suggest bypassing the fuel pump resistor... This puts the pump on full voltage all the time (not a full rewire), it helped with my issue of fuel pressure fluctuating.
https://www.rx7club.com/nw-rx-7-forum-33/name-fuel-pressure-issue-870743/
Good luck...
07-16-10, 11:06 PM
#130
ok so this is 'tuning' related 
. Should PLviewer automatically pull up every sensor that you logged or do you somehow have to select all the logged parameters? I ask this because I did some datalogging today but after I hotsync'd and opened it in PLviewer it only shows me two sensors, my rpm and airflow when rather I monitored 3 or 4 more sensors...Did I do something wrong during my datalogging? I can see all sensors when I view it from the palm 
. Should PLviewer automatically pull up every sensor that you logged or do you somehow have to select all the logged parameters? I ask this because I did some datalogging today but after I hotsync'd and opened it in PLviewer it only shows me two sensors, my rpm and airflow when rather I monitored 3 or 4 more sensors...Did I do something wrong during my datalogging? I can see all sensors when I view it from the palm
07-19-10, 11:21 PM
#133
So I'm noticing that our two intake temp sensors are pre-intercooler? Am I the only one who wonders what good that does us? Using thermodynamics you can actually calculate the efficiency of the turbo if you know the air tempurature in and out, and the air pressure in and out...and knowing the efficiency of the turbo you can predict how much it will increase the temp of the air at any certain pressure but if you don't know how the intercooler is coming into play it almost seems pointless? Anybody tried installing an air temp sensor post intercooler?
07-20-10, 10:29 AM
#134
ummm .............
The AIT is on the TB elbo, which is after the inter-heater. Its quite useful for telling you how much cooler your intake temps would be if you pulled it off and replaced it with some pvc pipe or perhaps auxillary injection
The AIT is on the TB elbo, which is after the inter-heater. Its quite useful for telling you how much cooler your intake temps would be if you pulled it off and replaced it with some pvc pipe or perhaps auxillary injection
07-20-10, 02:00 PM
#135
I stand corrected...after looking at my logs and seeing how much the AIT's would increase during boost even with 50/50 meth I automatically assumed both sensors were pre-intercooler.
BTW, I ran a new line from my 0-1v narrow band simulator from my LC-1 directly to my ECU and also rewired my fuel pump for full 12v and hesistations are pretty much non existent. Only a slight blurp every now and then while the car is warming up. Maybe the fuel pump rewire is the a fix for everyone who is having this weird lean hesitations? Time will tell..Thanks for the advice guys!
BTW, I ran a new line from my 0-1v narrow band simulator from my LC-1 directly to my ECU and also rewired my fuel pump for full 12v and hesistations are pretty much non existent. Only a slight blurp every now and then while the car is warming up. Maybe the fuel pump rewire is the a fix for everyone who is having this weird lean hesitations? Time will tell..Thanks for the advice guys!
07-20-10, 02:11 PM
#136
I stand corrected...after looking at my logs and seeing how much the AIT's would increase during boost even with 50/50 meth I automatically assumed both sensors were pre-intercooler.
BTW, I ran a new line from my 0-1v narrow band simulator from my LC-1 directly to my ECU and also rewired my fuel pump for full 12v and hesistations are pretty much non existent. Only a slight blurp every now and then while the car is warming up. Maybe the fuel pump rewire is the a fix for everyone who is having this weird lean hesitations? Time will tell..Thanks for the advice guys!
BTW, I ran a new line from my 0-1v narrow band simulator from my LC-1 directly to my ECU and also rewired my fuel pump for full 12v and hesistations are pretty much non existent. Only a slight blurp every now and then while the car is warming up. Maybe the fuel pump rewire is the a fix for everyone who is having this weird lean hesitations? Time will tell..Thanks for the advice guys!
07-20-10, 02:25 PM
#137
From what I've seen so far. I datalogged a short 3rd gear pull last night, ambient temps were maybe 65*F. I'll have to double check on the exact numbers but intake temps jumped from 90(ish)*F to 125*F in about 5 seconds at around 8-9 psi. I have a coolingmist progressive system that was set to come on at 4psi and max at 10.4psi. I have an 380cc injector injecting windshield wiper fluid (approx. 50/50 meth/water solution). Now I have noticed that air bubbles build up in the lines from time to time and it could take 5 seconds before the pump pushes all that air out so maybe by 4th gear it would have started injecting a little more meth and temps might have dropped? I'll be sure to do more testing and let you know if interested
07-20-10, 02:58 PM
#138
That seems pretty warm to me... I will run some logs when I get a chance to get out and spool the bitch, instead of just cruising to and from work. When I get home I can look at some old logs and check out at the temps too... With aux inj and 8-9 lbs I would assume temps would stay pretty low especially with 65*f ambient...
07-21-10, 09:13 PM
#139
So here's the 2nd and 3rd gear pull I was speaking of earlier. The intake air temp sensor went as high as 68*C which is 122*F starting from 40*C (72*F) right before the pull. Like I said, I'm hoping there was air bubbles in my AI kit . You can also see the boost creep with my 3.5" exhaust, I'm on the stock wastegate spring pressure but yet the boost starts and 5psi and records a spike as high as 12.2...not sure what's causing the boost to fluctuate though.
And yes, I know it went scary lean, I'll be sure to add fuel before I try that again.
. You can also see the boost creep with my 3.5" exhaust, I'm on the stock wastegate spring pressure but yet the boost starts and 5psi and records a spike as high as 12.2...not sure what's causing the boost to fluctuate though.And yes, I know it went scary lean, I'll be sure to add fuel before I try that again.
07-25-10, 03:23 AM
#143
Well this...
Resulted in a 14.26 at 96 mph 1/4 mile today. I got out of the hole hard but she just wasn't pullin nearly as strong as it usually does. AFR's were mostly in the 10's so I pulled some fuel for the next run and spun/ wheel hopped so hard that all my gauges landed in the seat, needless to say I just coasted the rest of the race. I saw AIT temps as high as 170F, water injection ain't doin a thing at the moment. This is stock boost by the way so I'd say that's not half bad
Resulted in a 14.26 at 96 mph 1/4 mile today. I got out of the hole hard but she just wasn't pullin nearly as strong as it usually does. AFR's were mostly in the 10's so I pulled some fuel for the next run and spun/ wheel hopped so hard that all my gauges landed in the seat, needless to say I just coasted the rest of the race. I saw AIT temps as high as 170F, water injection ain't doin a thing at the moment. This is stock boost by the way so I'd say that's not half bad
07-26-10, 04:18 PM
#144
I think two things might be going on:
1) your AI isn't being very effective for some reason. Maybe it's not working at all, maybe you're just not injecting enough. I can't say for sure because I'm not an expert on AI.
2) your compressor wheel should be plenty efficient for that boost level but your intercooler (stock?) may not be doing a very good job. For example, with my T04R i measure about 54C/130F intake temps at the TB elbow. That's under WOT pulls in this hot summer weather (90F outside or so). I have a Greddy 3 row FMIC. That's at 16.5psi . Exhaust temps are (last time I measured them before the probes burnt out) over 1600F on the rear rotor (preturbo).
Also, are you sure your wastegate is tensioned tight enough (is it the stock arm?) You might have so much backpressure that it is pushing on the flapper, causing that fluctuation. My understanding is that you are not running a boost controller at all.
1) your AI isn't being very effective for some reason. Maybe it's not working at all, maybe you're just not injecting enough. I can't say for sure because I'm not an expert on AI.
2) your compressor wheel should be plenty efficient for that boost level but your intercooler (stock?) may not be doing a very good job. For example, with my T04R i measure about 54C/130F intake temps at the TB elbow. That's under WOT pulls in this hot summer weather (90F outside or so). I have a Greddy 3 row FMIC. That's at 16.5psi . Exhaust temps are (last time I measured them before the probes burnt out) over 1600F on the rear rotor (preturbo).
Also, are you sure your wastegate is tensioned tight enough (is it the stock arm?) You might have so much backpressure that it is pushing on the flapper, causing that fluctuation. My understanding is that you are not running a boost controller at all.
07-26-10, 06:09 PM
#145
I checked my coolingmist kit yesterday, pulled off the pressure line from my manifold, and pulled out the injector. Put the pressure line in my mouth and blew and it started spraying instantly so I guess it's working fine. I'm gonna try running another smaller injector right before the intercooler and see if that helps. I think because the car was so heat soaked to begin with (144F from the punch) made matters worse but I didn't think it would get much higher at such low boost.
My wastegate arm is very stiff, I think almost too stiff. I don't actually know why it's fluctuating like that, it kinda makes it hard to tune. I'm assuming that's what boost creep looks like, and no I'm not running a boost controller at the moment, just ordered one today.
My wastegate arm is very stiff, I think almost too stiff. I don't actually know why it's fluctuating like that, it kinda makes it hard to tune. I'm assuming that's what boost creep looks like, and no I'm not running a boost controller at the moment, just ordered one today.
07-26-10, 08:27 PM
#146
That's not what boost creep looks like. On an engine without a boost controllerbBoost creep looks a lot like this:
The boost climbs up during spool, flattens out briefly right as the wastegate opens fully, and then slowly increases as the wastegate is overwhelmed and can't flow enough.
Where is your boost sensor connected to? If it's connected to the stock location on the primary runner do you have the restricter pill installed? If not try hooking it up to the bottom port of the front of the intake manifold. The issue here is that there can be pulsing effects from getting the signal off a primary runner. This is because the port is rapidly opening and closing causing pressure waves. Presumably that's why there is a restricter pill. When you hook it directly to the plenum the pulsing effects are reduced.
The boost climbs up during spool, flattens out briefly right as the wastegate opens fully, and then slowly increases as the wastegate is overwhelmed and can't flow enough.
Where is your boost sensor connected to? If it's connected to the stock location on the primary runner do you have the restricter pill installed? If not try hooking it up to the bottom port of the front of the intake manifold. The issue here is that there can be pulsing effects from getting the signal off a primary runner. This is because the port is rapidly opening and closing causing pressure waves. Presumably that's why there is a restricter pill. When you hook it directly to the plenum the pulsing effects are reduced.
Last edited by arghx; 07-26-10 at 08:35 PM. Reason: pic
07-31-10, 01:49 AM
#148
Resulted in a 14.26 at 96 mph 1/4 mile today. I got out of the hole hard but she just wasn't pullin nearly as strong as it usually does. AFR's were mostly in the 10's so I pulled some fuel for the next run and spun/ wheel hopped so hard that all my gauges landed in the seat, needless to say I just coasted the rest of the race. I saw AIT temps as high as 170F, water injection ain't doin a thing at the moment. This is stock boost by the way so I'd say that's not half bad
Got an O2 Sensor bung installed in the Rev II exhaust.
A quick 3rd gear pull (3k to 6k), ambient was around 80? Maybe a little less...
AFM
38.125*C = 100.625*F
IAT
26.875*C = 80.375*F
Highest temps After Pull were around 28.125*C or 82.625*F
The attached file is a *renamed* .pdb file to .zip. To view, just save it and rename the file to .pdb and open it with PLviewer. O2 sensor scaling is 10afr-5V and 20afr=0V.
Still rich in the midrange, good up top. Pulls like a bitch in the cool mornings. Going to test the Gauge and the MAP because the gauge say's like 15psi and the Map says like 10.
07-31-10, 12:14 PM
#150
I was going to go with a huge Ebay FMIC, but I decided it was too big for my setup. So I ended up going with an SRT-4 factory IC in front of the radiator. I cut a hole in the bumper to direct more air into it, also has some sheet metal ducting. Seems to be working well.
I will try to get out and do some 'spirited' driving and post some logs with more aggressive boosting.
I will try to get out and do some 'spirited' driving and post some logs with more aggressive boosting.