Rtek AFR Tuning methods
03-22-10, 03:27 PM
#101
Your first example is right. I'd have to check on the details, but it would be close.
720s are 31% bigger than 550s, but 550s are only 24% smaller than 720s. It's confusing, and sounds funny, but it's right.
Since we start with the 550s, I believe we remove 30% when in 720 mode. So you have to add 30% if you go to 720 mode and want to keep the same AFR.
This correction amount would be regardless of boost/no boost in the map. This is why its so hard to correct for a difference in injectors in the map. The map correction is applied after the pri/sec calculation so if both pri/sec are 30% bigger, then the whole map is changed by that amount. It's never a difference of 60%. If the pri/sec were different, then you'd run into the problem that some of the map would need (say..) 30% and another part would need some other amount, and since there is no clear line as to where the sec turn on in the map, its impossible to do correctly.
720s are 31% bigger than 550s, but 550s are only 24% smaller than 720s. It's confusing, and sounds funny, but it's right.
Since we start with the 550s, I believe we remove 30% when in 720 mode. So you have to add 30% if you go to 720 mode and want to keep the same AFR.
This correction amount would be regardless of boost/no boost in the map. This is why its so hard to correct for a difference in injectors in the map. The map correction is applied after the pri/sec calculation so if both pri/sec are 30% bigger, then the whole map is changed by that amount. It's never a difference of 60%. If the pri/sec were different, then you'd run into the problem that some of the map would need (say..) 30% and another part would need some other amount, and since there is no clear line as to where the sec turn on in the map, its impossible to do correctly.
03-22-10, 04:52 PM
#102
Your first example is right. I'd have to check on the details, but it would be close.
720s are 31% bigger than 550s, but 550s are only 24% smaller than 720s. It's confusing, and sounds funny, but it's right.
Since we start with the 550s, I believe we remove 30% when in 720 mode. So you have to add 30% if you go to 720 mode and want to keep the same AFR.
This correction amount would be regardless of boost/no boost in the map. This is why its so hard to correct for a difference in injectors in the map. The map correction is applied after the pri/sec calculation so if both pri/sec are 30% bigger, then the whole map is changed by that amount. It's never a difference of 60%. If the pri/sec were different, then you'd run into the problem that some of the map would need (say..) 30% and another part would need some other amount, and since there is no clear line as to where the sec turn on in the map, its impossible to do correctly.
720s are 31% bigger than 550s, but 550s are only 24% smaller than 720s. It's confusing, and sounds funny, but it's right.
Since we start with the 550s, I believe we remove 30% when in 720 mode. So you have to add 30% if you go to 720 mode and want to keep the same AFR.
This correction amount would be regardless of boost/no boost in the map. This is why its so hard to correct for a difference in injectors in the map. The map correction is applied after the pri/sec calculation so if both pri/sec are 30% bigger, then the whole map is changed by that amount. It's never a difference of 60%. If the pri/sec were different, then you'd run into the problem that some of the map would need (say..) 30% and another part would need some other amount, and since there is no clear line as to where the sec turn on in the map, its impossible to do correctly.
Now throw in that I'm running 680x1000 instead of 720x720...uhg.. going to do this on paper tonight and do some testing later this week....
Thanks...
03-22-10, 08:01 PM
#103
say I'm at -25 % correction, and I change to 4x720's the new correction should be +5%?
Sell the injectors and get yourself 4 850s.
03-22-10, 09:13 PM
#104
Correct. It should get you in teh ballpark, but I think you'll find that the non-linearity of injector on time vs fuel due to the injector opening time delay, that you may have to adjust it a bit from there depending what the D/C is at that point.
Sell the injectors and get yourself 4 850s.
Sell the injectors and get yourself 4 850s.
720x720 and +30 across the board. (fingers crossed...)
03-23-10, 03:18 PM
#105
Got a good start today at lunch. There were some wierd things going on when I was trying to set the initial set coupler settings(idle afr, var res), it would just not update log values or anything, had to exit to the main screen then back in..?...
Anywho, switched to the 720x720 and idle went up to 13.5afrs, but then after I adjusted them +30 correction idle went back to ****, so I went to the -12 map and started pulling fuel to no avail. so I went to the -10 map and started pulling fuel, this affected idle! I could lean it out to 14 by adjusting the -10 map 1024 rpm cell, I think, but it was happier around 13.5. Still the 12-11-10 idle afrs are gone and the stench of unburnt fuel not as deadly...
Why is it using the -10 map for values that are like -19 in/hg??? are they like -psi?
I should have poked around more on the previous map... screw that, I'm not turning back now.
I will be doing more corrections on the way home and this evening, but at 2.3 psi I'm back at 10afrs
But I does feel that drivability has gotten better and the more I 'pull' fuel and the map back into shape should be nicer/easier to drive daily...
Anywho, switched to the 720x720 and idle went up to 13.5afrs, but then after I adjusted them +30 correction idle went back to ****, so I went to the -12 map and started pulling fuel to no avail. so I went to the -10 map and started pulling fuel, this affected idle! I could lean it out to 14 by adjusting the -10 map 1024 rpm cell, I think, but it was happier around 13.5. Still the 12-11-10 idle afrs are gone and the stench of unburnt fuel not as deadly...
Why is it using the -10 map for values that are like -19 in/hg??? are they like -psi?
I should have poked around more on the previous map... screw that, I'm not turning back now.
I will be doing more corrections on the way home and this evening, but at 2.3 psi I'm back at 10afrs
But I does feel that drivability has gotten better and the more I 'pull' fuel and the map back into shape should be nicer/easier to drive daily...
03-24-10, 11:58 AM
#108
It is better to drive now, seeing high 12 afr's through low 13's cruising and at Idle.
04-01-10, 11:14 AM
#109
I am very happy I switched to the 720x720 setting, drivability seems much better and the car seems to be happy too with afrs cruising at ~13.5 rather that 11-12. My clothes don't smell like gas when I have the window down either... Going to get a camera mount and a palm holder setup...
04-08-10, 07:42 AM
#110
Great thread, I'm learning a lot by reading through this..
Just curious though, were your hiccups anything like mine?
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2006w6e&s=6
Just curious though, were your hiccups anything like mine?
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2006w6e&s=6
04-11-10, 11:52 AM
#111
I made a little palm pilot holder and it turned out pretty damn good for my first time molding fiberglass. Although If I had taken more time with the fiberglass and sanding, it would have looked 10x better, but I spent quite a bit of time making this sucker anyway.
1) Cover Palm Pilot in plastic bag(s)
2) Placed Palm on Paper plate and coated it with Pam and mixed up the epoxy.
3) Laid a good amount of epoxy down then laid the fiberglass down and coated that with epoxy.
4) Removed Palm Pilot (mold) from casting?.
5) Cut off the excess fiberglass and cleaned it up a little. The plasic bags kinda screwed up the cast because of the wrinkles.
6) Laid more fiberglass to to make it more sturdy.
7) Once that dried I laid another coat of epoxy over the entire piece and cut to shape and sanded it a little. I was just going to cut a hole for the cord, but the damn thing comes straight out of the bottom of the palm so I had to cut the hole area out. I went back around the edges with epoxy to kind of 'seal' in the exposed fiberglass from cutting.
8) I really had no Idea where or how I was going to mount it. I did find that I had some holes already in the dash on the passenger side, so I just figured I'd use those. I made up a little bracket with some aluminum and some little pieces of metal I had laying around. I wanted to be able to angle the palm if I get any sort of glare. It needed to be out of the way of the passenger, but not cover my gauges or EBC and the glove box still needed to open w/o interference.
9) I can't believe how well it worked out.
10) Here it is unpainted, clear of glove box, clear of gauges, clear of passenger legs, clear of shifter throw. The Palm actually kind of 'snaps' into place and is pretty damn solid when it's in the holder.
I have since painted it black (should have gone with a flat black gloss brings out all the imperfections in the casting) and looks pretty nice and works great. Overall the entire bracket/holder only weighs about 90 grams or 3.2 oz.
RX7se: No. That's crazy wierd lean...
1) Cover Palm Pilot in plastic bag(s)
2) Placed Palm on Paper plate and coated it with Pam and mixed up the epoxy.
3) Laid a good amount of epoxy down then laid the fiberglass down and coated that with epoxy.
4) Removed Palm Pilot (mold) from casting?.
5) Cut off the excess fiberglass and cleaned it up a little. The plasic bags kinda screwed up the cast because of the wrinkles.
6) Laid more fiberglass to to make it more sturdy.
7) Once that dried I laid another coat of epoxy over the entire piece and cut to shape and sanded it a little. I was just going to cut a hole for the cord, but the damn thing comes straight out of the bottom of the palm so I had to cut the hole area out. I went back around the edges with epoxy to kind of 'seal' in the exposed fiberglass from cutting.
8) I really had no Idea where or how I was going to mount it. I did find that I had some holes already in the dash on the passenger side, so I just figured I'd use those. I made up a little bracket with some aluminum and some little pieces of metal I had laying around. I wanted to be able to angle the palm if I get any sort of glare. It needed to be out of the way of the passenger, but not cover my gauges or EBC and the glove box still needed to open w/o interference.
9) I can't believe how well it worked out.
10) Here it is unpainted, clear of glove box, clear of gauges, clear of passenger legs, clear of shifter throw. The Palm actually kind of 'snaps' into place and is pretty damn solid when it's in the holder.
I have since painted it black (should have gone with a flat black gloss brings out all the imperfections in the casting) and looks pretty nice and works great. Overall the entire bracket/holder only weighs about 90 grams or 3.2 oz.
RX7se: No. That's crazy wierd lean...
06-02-10, 02:37 PM
#113
Pretty Damn good now! I just had my first Son on the 22nd so I haven't been doing much with the Rx lately, and the weather has been crappy too.
I did a Novice Autocross training event and it was a blast! But in first and second I'm spinning tires even at/around stock boost and plowing through the corners. I really, really NEED new tires.
I got pulled over but no ticket, clear roads and no traffic doesn't mean you can go as fast as you want I guess... I was driving it to and from work when the weather was good and fuel consumption has gone way down with the 720X720 setting. I pulled off my cat/resonator pipe the other day to find that it is cracked around the edges and on the verge of blowing out (cheap motoria ****), so I might be picking up a used RB resonator this weekend and hopefully that quiets it down just enough that the cops don't look EVERY time I drive by. Once the weather starts getting better I'm going to be getting some new tires hopefully and then post up some vids and **** and start tuning for even higher boost although I'm a little concerned that the Boost gauge reads higher than the Map on the Palm... Gotta look into that too.
Tuning is good though I've actually had to add just a little fuel in spots...
How is your RTEK Tuning experience going?
I did a Novice Autocross training event and it was a blast! But in first and second I'm spinning tires even at/around stock boost and plowing through the corners. I really, really NEED new tires.
I got pulled over but no ticket, clear roads and no traffic doesn't mean you can go as fast as you want I guess... I was driving it to and from work when the weather was good and fuel consumption has gone way down with the 720X720 setting. I pulled off my cat/resonator pipe the other day to find that it is cracked around the edges and on the verge of blowing out (cheap motoria ****), so I might be picking up a used RB resonator this weekend and hopefully that quiets it down just enough that the cops don't look EVERY time I drive by. Once the weather starts getting better I'm going to be getting some new tires hopefully and then post up some vids and **** and start tuning for even higher boost although I'm a little concerned that the Boost gauge reads higher than the Map on the Palm... Gotta look into that too.
Tuning is good though I've actually had to add just a little fuel in spots...
How is your RTEK Tuning experience going?
07-08-10, 01:55 AM
#114
) I've considered running dedicated lines for the gauge and the sensor (right now they're "tee'd in with each other) but it seems like IF that were to cause a problem the problem would be both receivers getting the same inaccurate signal. :shrug: Then again, my boost gauge could be off since I mounted the sending unit in the engine bay 
Bout damn time! lol
07-08-10, 11:09 AM
#115
I've heard that as well, but I just recently installed my Rtek and my boost gauge seemed to read a little lower than the stock sensor (ie...hitting fuel cut at "7 psi ) I've considered running dedicated lines for the gauge and the sensor (right now they're "tee'd in with each other) but it seems like IF that were to cause a problem the problem would be both receivers getting the same inaccurate signal. :shrug: Then again, my boost gauge could be off since I mounted the sending unit in the engine bay
Bout damn time! lol
) I've considered running dedicated lines for the gauge and the sensor (right now they're "tee'd in with each other) but it seems like IF that were to cause a problem the problem would be both receivers getting the same inaccurate signal. :shrug: Then again, my boost gauge could be off since I mounted the sending unit in the engine bay Bout damn time! lol
Anyone take any Vids, or want to share their RTEK tuning experiences... Has anyone popped a motor on one? Please post up!
07-09-10, 12:29 PM
#118
Wait?! What?! I sure hope not, I haven't.
I was going to post up yesterday and share my air temps.
It was hot, like 95-96 driving home yesterday, I saw AFM temps around 119-118f but Intake temps were around 98-99f, that's like 20 degree difference. That makes me think my IC is functioning well(damn near ambient, although there was none/very little boosting), anyone else care to share their intake/AFM temps with regards to ambient and type of IC?
Car is running great, I can't complain about anything, except not having a stereo now that I don't have a 100db exhaust tone drowning out all other audibles... I actually heard my turn signal clicking... I was like WTF is that clicking, oh, I didn't know the turn signals made any sound...LOL...
I was going to post up yesterday and share my air temps.
It was hot, like 95-96 driving home yesterday, I saw AFM temps around 119-118f but Intake temps were around 98-99f, that's like 20 degree difference. That makes me think my IC is functioning well(damn near ambient, although there was none/very little boosting), anyone else care to share their intake/AFM temps with regards to ambient and type of IC?
Car is running great, I can't complain about anything, except not having a stereo now that I don't have a 100db exhaust tone drowning out all other audibles... I actually heard my turn signal clicking... I was like WTF is that clicking, oh, I didn't know the turn signals made any sound...LOL...
07-09-10, 01:00 PM
#119
Lmao @ the turn signal clicking.
Good idea, I'll take some logs this afternoon and check on the temps.
If you don't have a WB, where were you getting all your AFR references from previous posts?
And you are right about second gear! Dayum! what a difference, I only took it up to 7 psi, but the turbo had a different sound to it, like a sharp high pitched whistle. Can't wait to get the 720's in this weekend and install the rest of my fuel system.
Good idea, I'll take some logs this afternoon and check on the temps.
If you don't have a WB, where were you getting all your AFR references from previous posts?
And you are right about second gear! Dayum! what a difference, I only took it up to 7 psi, but the turbo had a different sound to it, like a sharp high pitched whistle. Can't wait to get the 720's in this weekend and install the rest of my fuel system.
07-09-10, 09:04 PM
#121
ran some logs this afternoon....
First one was right when I got off from work (black car sat in direct sunlight since 8 am), I ran a few errands, got gas, and then took this log on the way to Home depot:
Ambient: 95+
AFM temp: 154.6* ..............after a minute of cruizing..........150.1*
Intake temp: 141.1*...........after a minute of cruizing...........same
Coolant temp: 171.5*.........after a minute of cruizing............167.0*
The stock temp gauge was at 1/2 at the begining of this log, by the end it was at 1/3....Seems like something is a little off....
On the way back from HD I saw a 10ae at a used car lot and stopped to take a look thinking it was closed, the owner came out...and started telling me about his rotaries "10ae (450hp) , Drag TII (850 hp), S5 vert (400hp "its just a street car") Then he proceeds to tell me how the stock computer is best and I need to sell my Rtek [actually he thought I said haltech] because he's making 450hp (10ae) on the stock turbo w/ a top mount 720's and an FCD ....it was all I could do not to laugh in his face, very cool guy though Invited me back for a ride in an FC that he built the motor for.....anyways the point is I sat there and talked to him for 20min while my car idled (poorly....gotta check out the fuel system) and heat soaked the "450hp" TMIC......
Ambient: 87
AFM temp: 129.9* ..............after a minute of cruizing..........133.3*
Intake temp: 135.5*...........after a minute of cruizing...........138.9*
Coolant temp: 169.3*.........after a minute of cruizing............same
The temp gauge was reading 5/8 when I pulled into the street, and got down to between 1/3 and 1/2 within 2 minutes
All this **** sames WAY high (except the coolant temps, I could see one sensor going bad but two is unlikely, guess its just that hot?
First one was right when I got off from work (black car sat in direct sunlight since 8 am), I ran a few errands, got gas, and then took this log on the way to Home depot:
Ambient: 95+
AFM temp: 154.6* ..............after a minute of cruizing..........150.1*
Intake temp: 141.1*...........after a minute of cruizing...........same
Coolant temp: 171.5*.........after a minute of cruizing............167.0*
The stock temp gauge was at 1/2 at the begining of this log, by the end it was at 1/3....Seems like something is a little off....
On the way back from HD I saw a 10ae at a used car lot and stopped to take a look thinking it was closed, the owner came out...and started telling me about his rotaries "10ae (450hp) , Drag TII (850 hp), S5 vert (400hp "its just a street car") Then he proceeds to tell me how the stock computer is best and I need to sell my Rtek [actually he thought I said haltech] because he's making 450hp (10ae) on the stock turbo w/ a top mount 720's and an FCD
....it was all I could do not to laugh in his face, very cool guy though Invited me back for a ride in an FC that he built the motor for.....anyways the point is I sat there and talked to him for 20min while my car idled (poorly....gotta check out the fuel system) and heat soaked the "450hp" TMIC......Ambient: 87
AFM temp: 129.9* ..............after a minute of cruizing..........133.3*
Intake temp: 135.5*...........after a minute of cruizing...........138.9*
Coolant temp: 169.3*.........after a minute of cruizing............same
The temp gauge was reading 5/8 when I pulled into the street, and got down to between 1/3 and 1/2 within 2 minutes
All this **** sames WAY high (except the coolant temps
, I could see one sensor going bad but two is unlikely, guess its just that hot?
07-11-10, 02:43 PM
#124
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you have to read the documentation for your wideband sensor/gauge. Then go into the palm software and plug in the values at 0v and at 5v into the calculator and it'll give you the right settings
07-15-10, 09:08 PM
#125
Alright guys so my real rtek experience begun today...I installed the 740cc primaries and 1000cc secondaries...setup up the ECU with the 720cc/720cc and scaled the var res input for my wideband. Started like a champ. But as usal, as soon as it warmed up whenever I would hold partial throttle the car would just fall on its face and go as lean as in the 20's. My diagnostics said my 02 sensor is bad, it has 0 miles on it.
So I unplugged my pressure sensor like I always have to and the car ran normal again so it was off to driving and datalogging. Surprisingly enough the car drives smother than it did before even though my injectors are larger than the ecu expects. Can't feel the secondaries kick in at all which really caught me by surprise BUT, when it boosts, I logged as low as an 8.87 AFR at 12 psi
....sluggish as hell too 
. But it just proves how good the fuel system is working.
Anyways, to the above post about air intake temps. Ambient temp was 73F, my air intake temp stayed right around 112-118F while cruising and would drop into the 108ish degrees during short 3rd gear pulls. But while sitting they would get up to about 125F....I'm debating front mount now
So I unplugged my pressure sensor like I always have to and the car ran normal again so it was off to driving and datalogging. Surprisingly enough the car drives smother than it did before even though my injectors are larger than the ecu expects. Can't feel the secondaries kick in at all which really caught me by surprise BUT, when it boosts, I logged as low as an 8.87 AFR at 12 psi
....sluggish as hell too . But it just proves how good the fuel system is working.Anyways, to the above post about air intake temps. Ambient temp was 73F, my air intake temp stayed right around 112-118F while cruising and would drop into the 108ish degrees during short 3rd gear pulls. But while sitting they would get up to about 125F....I'm debating front mount now