What if.... Ideas and theories
but we're on the same page.
06-30-05, 11:38 PM
#30
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Mazda has tried that
Go to Craigs rotary page and you will find info on the larger(taller) rotors. I personally would like to see them make something out of them. They would be more torqey. If they made more cars with the rotary engine I'm sure they would have used the taller rotors for something. Anyway the numbers from the motors were not bad actually vs the 12a's that they were putting in their cars at the time.
07-05-05, 06:44 PM
#31
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http://www.rotaryrefs.net/ check this out, go check out the book they have on there and you'll see that they went through many designs in order to come up with the Wankel-NSU engine. But i also have wondered what a "big block" rotary would come up with, in the end, its easier to increase displacement by slappin on another rotor.
07-18-05, 09:26 PM
#32
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i would say higher surface area to volume is a sure way to decrease the quality of the combustion. also, i say that if your willing to talk about changing the motor in this way, you shouldn't look at the size of the ports as a limitation. Pports are an obvious answer. I would say increasing depth would be more efficient than increasing the diameter. increasing the diamater might also increase wobble at high rpms.
As far as two seals go: if one goes, it can ruin the housing, and will prob. take out the other seals anyways.
As far as two seals go: if one goes, it can ruin the housing, and will prob. take out the other seals anyways.
07-23-05, 02:09 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by IanS
What if instead of simply making the housings and rotors for the 13B wider than a 12A, they (Mazda) made them larger diameter? Granted, this would not be cost effective at all as they would be 2 completely different engines and parts would cost considerably more.
The 13A had the same width rotor housings as the 12A, but it had a larger radius. It was the only production Mazda rotary with a radius different from the 10A/12A/13B. The 13A was used in the R-130 Luce, which was built from 1969 to 1972.
The 13A was 1310cc (not 1308 like the 13B).
Mazda did it for space constraint reasons, since the R-130 Luce was front wheel drive.
When Mazda made another "1.3l" engine, they had to call it the 13B, since 13A had already been taken. Now you know why the 13B is just a longer 12A, but has a different letter designation. The letter has absolutely nothing to do with the design of the engine.
edit: *production* Mazda rotary, forgot about the 21A/22A prototypes
07-23-05, 09:13 PM
#34
yes it does, it represent the basic dimensions of the engine except rotor housing width (13b is 10mm wider than 12a). eccentricity, epithrochoid dimensions etc are tied to the letter designation.
that's why they added a suffix like REW or MSP (RX-8) to differientiate them even when they still share their dimensions (13B)
that's why they added a suffix like REW or MSP (RX-8) to differientiate them even when they still share their dimensions (13B)
07-23-05, 11:24 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by neit_jnf
yes it does, it represent the basic dimensions of the engine except rotor housing width (13b is 10mm wider than 12a). eccentricity, epithrochoid dimensions etc are tied to the letter designation.
07-24-05, 10:11 PM
#37
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Why not try a twin E-shaft arrangement, with two banks or 'wide' rotors side by side so they get a more 'square' combustion chamber, and then ceramic coat the hell out of the housings. The end of the E-shafts could just mesh to the flywheel or something and then have the flywheel itself mounted strongly into the block on a shaft between them or something?
Another problem though is that the whole 'exhaust side' of the side housing has the combustion chamber and the detonated charge drug accross it up until it hits the exhaust port - is there any way to change the geometry of it so you dont lose heat through that? Or, well, I guess you could just really super coat that with ceramic or try to impregnate the metal itself with something to insulate it.
This would also have the effect of keeping the engine shorter while increasing displacement, which cant be too bad :P
Another problem though is that the whole 'exhaust side' of the side housing has the combustion chamber and the detonated charge drug accross it up until it hits the exhaust port - is there any way to change the geometry of it so you dont lose heat through that? Or, well, I guess you could just really super coat that with ceramic or try to impregnate the metal itself with something to insulate it.
This would also have the effect of keeping the engine shorter while increasing displacement, which cant be too bad :P
07-25-05, 03:17 PM
#38
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Or make a two-stage rotary diesel. Like Rolls Royce made way back in the day. One large rotor to sweep in/out gasses, that feeds into a smaller rotor that handles combustion.
07-25-05, 09:03 PM
#41
Quote:
Originally Posted by neit_jnf
yes it does, it represent the basic dimensions of the engine except rotor housing width (13b is 10mm wider than 12a). eccentricity, epithrochoid dimensions etc are tied to the letter designation.
You simply have absolutely no clue. Go away.
Originally Posted by neit_jnf
yes it does, it represent the basic dimensions of the engine except rotor housing width (13b is 10mm wider than 12a). eccentricity, epithrochoid dimensions etc are tied to the letter designation.
You simply have absolutely no clue. Go away.
07-26-05, 12:11 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by neit_jnf
make it all aluminum... or maybe even magnesium/aluminum combo
Would you really want Magnesium in a a high boost/hp car, the sheer heat in the combustion chamber would cause it to go up in flames and that would be the end of that project. there's a reason Magnesium components are outlawed in just about every type or racing organization on earth.
Magnesium+Heat= Really hot flame that won't go out
07-26-05, 01:28 PM
#43
Originally Posted by ZIP
Would you really want Magnesium in a a high boost/hp car, the sheer heat in the combustion chamber would cause it to go up in flames and that would be the end of that project. there's a reason Magnesium components are outlawed in just about every type or racing organization on earth.
Magnesium+Heat= Really hot flame that won't go out
Magnesium+Heat= Really hot flame that won't go out
07-26-05, 01:58 PM
#44
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what's the expansion coefficient of magnesium?
if it's closer to iron than the current alloy, maybe they can be used for the rotor housings. but i'm sure if it were the best choice for a production car, mazada would have done it already.
if it's closer to iron than the current alloy, maybe they can be used for the rotor housings. but i'm sure if it were the best choice for a production car, mazada would have done it already.
07-26-05, 02:04 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
what's the expansion coefficient of magnesium?
if it's closer to iron than the current alloy, maybe they can be used for the rotor housings. but i'm sure if it were the best choice for a production car, mazada would have done it already.
if it's closer to iron than the current alloy, maybe they can be used for the rotor housings. but i'm sure if it were the best choice for a production car, mazada would have done it already.
07-26-05, 05:22 PM
#46
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the rotors are nodular cast iron, which has a pretty low expansion coefficient in comparison to aluminum. So if you ran an aluminum rotor, it would expand so much that it wouldn't seal for **** while cold. And so are the side housings due to the fact that aluminum just doesnt have that kind of long-term wear protection. But with the side housing you could coat it with a moly-based metal and carbon steel.
07-26-05, 06:11 PM
#47
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well, once i'm done with my degree, i can take up metallurgy on the side and see if i cna come up with something.
then, after billions of dollars are invested in it, i can offer aftermarket parts at bargain prices...~$15-20k per engine...
until then, wer're more of less stuck with what mazda has to offer. but my hat's off to anyone who can build something on their own...i'll probably be the first to buy it and try it out.
then, after billions of dollars are invested in it, i can offer aftermarket parts at bargain prices...~$15-20k per engine...
until then, wer're more of less stuck with what mazda has to offer. but my hat's off to anyone who can build something on their own...i'll probably be the first to buy it and try it out.
07-26-05, 07:56 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
well, once i'm done with my degree, i can take up metallurgy on the side and see if i cna come up with something.
then, after billions of dollars are invested in it, i can offer aftermarket parts at bargain prices...~$15-20k per engine...
until then, wer're more of less stuck with what mazda has to offer. but my hat's off to anyone who can build something on their own...i'll probably be the first to buy it and try it out.
then, after billions of dollars are invested in it, i can offer aftermarket parts at bargain prices...~$15-20k per engine...
until then, wer're more of less stuck with what mazda has to offer. but my hat's off to anyone who can build something on their own...i'll probably be the first to buy it and try it out.
i'm right there with you as soon as i finish up my Engineering degree i might try and produce a billet rotary motor, it shouldn't be too hard once it's on CAD.
07-27-05, 12:36 PM
#50
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talkin some serious dough for materials, machinery, personnel etc. Im sure mazda has been working at it, but prolly not as much as production of "sport sedans" which seem to be the craze lately. It would be nice if mazda (or another company for that matter) would back someone on ideas like these. But when it comes to shellin out money, im sure their engineers are plenty busy.
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