Marcel Burkett

At present I have a fairly sophisticated W.I system using a mix of various parts from various manufactures. The actual water injectors are controlled by the E6K via the boost control map using one of the PWM outputs . This setup works well , but is only a two dimentional map (duty cycle vs rpm) and I would prefer a map that would plot dyty cycle against boost or an even better three dimentional map that would include engine RPM's to allow for better control. I am patiently awaiting the release of the FJO controller , but I'm still looking at using a fully independant lap top programmable additional injector controller , the ones withe the ***** aren't flexible and / or precise enough .Has anyone tried this ? , anyone know where I can find a controller like the one I described ?, I found two (split second and under dog..) , but they only go up to 25psi , I want something that would go higher to 30 or 40 psi. Any help will be appreciated .

Crusader_9x

if you get the fuel injection amplifier from aquamist then it will inject the same as whenever your injectors are. all it really does it amplify either the primary or secondary injector signal so you can send it to two or more injectors, aka your normal secondary and then your water injector. im not to sure if this is what your looking for but just thought i would put it out there.

Marcel Burkett

I already have that (FiA2 ) , let me explain . when using that amplifier it follows exactly what your fuel sustem does , to change the injection rate , you would need to keep changing nozzle sizes , cause the pulse width would remain the same as your fuel sustems programming doesnt change regularly , to benefit more from WI injection , ignition should be advanced and fuel leaned out , if the Fia2 is following the fuel injection pulse it will actually reduce the amount of water being injected . To achieve a proper , more precise and totally independant (of the fuel system ) w.i system I want a programable controller , so that I can supply water very precisely without having to go buy jets and still be over or under spraying , I will be able to adjust water or fuel independantly . This I why I started using the Haltechs programmable PWM out put , but this map wasnt desighed for this so its a bit limited.
My W.I system is also a two staged one , the first injector begins spraying from low boost (4psi ) all the way up to high boost , this nozzle is driven direstly bu the E6K . The second injector is brought on line by the Haltech at 15psi and is driven by the FiA2 that does exactly what the first nozzle is doing (it senses the pulses to the first nozzle) .
When both are on line under high boost , too much water can cost power and turbo response and too little will cause me to hurt my motor since I will be advancing my ignition and leaning my fuel maps for maximum gains.

bill Shurvinton

Megasquirt should be able to do that no problem.

Battyboy

I use the PINZ Vapourjet system. Check out their site they may have something that will help you. If you have any questions mail Hamish he'll have the answers.

http://www.pinz-online.com

Jesuscookies

iTrader: (1)

I am using the aquamist MF2 unit. It is completely independant, and allows for a 3d map.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

Marcell, I understand what you are trying to do but I don't understand. Forgive me if I make no sense. Water injection is supposed to be injected at a certain ratio compared to fuel. If the fia2 follows the pwm for your fuel injectors, then you will always maintain the propper ratio. You just want the flow to increase with rpm and/or boost. So if the boost goes up so does the water or if the rpms go up and not boost, so does the water. Your injectors do the same so by following them, you can always maintane your desired ratio.

Now, if you want the ratio to change, this is a different story. Like if you want 10% at low boost and 20% at high boost instead of 15% always. I also understand that you want to lean it out and not loose your preset ratio when you are not lean. This begs the question as to when you plan on pulling fuel. If it is system wide then It makes no difference. If it is only after hitting x boost. Then why not just have the WI come on at the point where your fuel maps change and dial the ratio in for those cells.

I think you have some options with what you have. Why not set up the fia2 and injector driver to follow your regular duty cycles with a 15% ratio. Then at the boost that you decide to run leaner, just have the small injector come on to make up the difference. another option is to do as above and then ramp votage to the pump to increase delivery at a preset boost. Or buy the MF2 as stated above. It is 3d independent.

If I have misunderstood, please let me know as I am presently working on a system for my car and could use more knowledge.

Mike

Marcel Burkett

I am quite familiar with the FiA2 and it operation since I have been using it before , I had it hooked to my secondary injectors, I found that its ok but not good enough if you want total control , I still have a few jets from trying to get the right ratios .I attempted to have direct control by connecting to a PWM out and using the boost control map. Even aquamist (Richard) has realized that more control is needed and is soon to release the system 2D that will allow some control of how the fuel injection pulses affect the HSV.
One rule of thumb is 15% , some even say 25% or 30 % , I have found that this can vary from motor to motor depending on a number of factors like porting , turbo & intercooler efficiency , exhaust etc. . I desire various injection ratios at different points in the boost and RPM ranges , like a small spray at the turbos' suction early in the boost range to cool the turbo down , more as RPM's increase and a higher ratio to coincide with my torque followed by a reduction as the torque curve falls off at higher RPM's. I want to be able to change anything I want , like I want to change to a semi. p.p. motor with a GT42RS turbo in the future , and not have to go trying new jets again I must be able to reprogram and retune just like I would do my fuel system.
The MF2 is 3D but again its limited , I know because I had one . the adjustments are very limited and sensative , a small change in adjustment of one of those dials makes a big change in output and not being able to actually build and visualize a map is a disadvantage . A controller like the Split Second AIC cost the same and has more mappable points , the software is quite sophisticated the only thing I don't like about it is that it can't be programmed on the fly , I may go with that one or wait a little longer for FJO's controller .

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

Marcell, I was basing my opinnion on the fia2 based on the info from the write up of the 2d kit on aquamist's site. It led me to believe that it was ratio adjustable, meaning it would follow the PWM of the injector, but allow changes in ratios by how it affects the HSV. it would be a fixed ratio but you could choose the ratio you wanted; 15, 20,25 and so on. Is there a difference in the new fia2 v2 versus what you have. That would explain my connfusion. Or is this not available yet.

I looked at the other options you posted. The urd only goes to 16 psi or something there abouts and the split secound goes to 25psi. That's enough for me, so I also may look into this. You stated that you are injecting pre turbo. Any concerns of the water erroding the impeller. I have also read that you dont take as much advantage of the IC if you inject before it. I think they are talking about before IC but after turbo in that situation. I know you are on top of this so any info you care to throw out, I will use.

Any idea of the price on the FJO. It will be awhile before I get mine installed so I have time to wait. I would imagine they come with software and such, but what would I use as an injector. I plan on running 50/50 water methanol or just straight water if I do not have methonal. The pump and turn on device is a no brainer. I just do not know what injector is compatable with water other than what aquamist has. I haven't done any research in this area yet

Mike

Mike

Marcel Burkett

You adjust the ratio by changing the size of the water jet , as I am sure you've figured , that isnt very accurate as flows will vary with pressure and pump flow . Getting varying ratios I found was hard , sometimes I would see my exhaust temperature drop by 400 deg. F and other times by only 100 deg.F , I would always be wondering if I was injecting enough.
The new system 2E will have a gauge type display which shows , fuel injector pulse , water injector pulse , a blocked jet led and a water tank low level led. There would be a +/- "gain type" adjustment that would bias the water flow based on the fuel flow , but again it would adjust the entire map , not specific parts . The water injection tip in point will also be adjustable from there eliminating the pressure switch.
The URD is out because of the low boost pressure , I may wait on the FJO , they said its in the "alpha testing " phase and will be out soon , I am also partial to the FJO 'cause I have their wide band kit and it supposed to be compatable with the WI controller using some type of 0-5 volt input from the O2 sensor which incorporates some type of safety cut off.
The tech. at split second said that the controller can go way past 30 psi but it will use the same values that are there for 26psi , so essentially the flow will be steady after 26psi . I dont plan on going past 30 psi , so I may be able to live with that my final decision would be based on price and the FJO's features.
I have been injecting prior to the turbo for a while now (been using water for years) , without problems , good atomisation is the key which is aided by high operating pressure . My system runs at 165 PSI with the ShurFlo pump so I have no problem.That bit about the intercooler may be true , it all depends on how much you inject , too much will even cause condensation within the IC , its a matter of trial and error.
Fjo will also have all the accessories to go with their controller , pumps , injectors , lines , tanks and fogging nozzles.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

Thanks marcell for the info. I was checking on the aquamist site. They call the hsv by two names; the High speed valve, duh, and the high speed solenoid. I thought these were two different things, but they are one in the same. how much is a HSV. this should work with the FJO and the sureflow. I plan on using my windshield washer reservoir for a tank.

Mike

Marcel Burkett

The HSV is $232 dollars , it has a universal design it can be controlled by any controller because of the high coil iresistance. My reservoir is a go carts' fuel tank , it holds six leters and the shurFlo pump empties it in seconds if its left running , make sure that you don't run out 'cause the priming of the pump requires the discharge to be open (you will have to get out and disconnect a hose).
You can get loand of info on the WI forum :http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/