the idea of supercedeing the OMP with small oil ports in the apex seal grooves in interesting
would really help keep the springs from getting hot and collapsing

 

ok another crazy idea....but kenku....can't u get a custom rotor made with some kind of sparking setup built into the rotor and some sort fo timing and everything hooked up to it.....that woudl really helf with the burn rate problem!

 

Well, the original KKM style wankel had the spark plug in the rotor face. The problem with *that* is taking apart one's engine in order to change plugs.

 

ok.....what if they developed a special kind of plug.....sumtin that doesn't need servicing until u rebuild the motor! have like 2 of them in the rotor face.....that would be crazyy.....hooked up to MSD....that should solve our burn rate problems

 

Correcting myself, the first style motor is a DKM, or single rotation. And if you have this magical spark plug, why not go back to the DKM style motor; 29hp out of 125cc, scale that to 13B size and you have 320hp NA.

As long as we're coming up with ideas like that, that is...

 

The engine would have an equal length 2 piece e-shaft. Not the uneven length version of the 20b. Based on what you said previously about the 20b e-shaft, this design should be more reliable. Also I'm not even sure if two stationary gears per chamber are neccessary(it was suggested because of the wider rotors). If so, then the engine could have a solid e-shaft.


I quess you missed my previous post when I already explained that the side plates would have to be larger to make the side exhaust ports work. My original idea was to use the two peripheral exhaust ports per housing. This would give the apex seals some support. I only brought up the Renesis exhaust because it could better help control emissions.



You just lost me! That "someone" who proposed the idea about peripheral secondaries was me. Please re-read my post when I elaborated on how this engine could work. I never said anything about a valve shutting the exhaust. Because of how wide the rotor chamber would be, both upper intake ports would have to be the primary ports to provide sufficiant amounts of air needed to make the engine run at lower rpm's. The shutter valve would close the secondary peripheral intake port at lower rpm's to prevent overlap and a high/rough idle . Then it would open at higher rpm's for top end performance.



Well I never said this engine would be a mass production engine. I did previously state that it could be cheaper to produce but not mass production. The 20b's weight and design flaws had something to do with it not being in other cars also. This shortend 4 rotor would only be 1 1/8" longer than a 20b. The weight would be about the same. This engines larger displacement could allow for more power while keeping the overall dimensions of a 20b. Besides this particular engine is just the tip of the iceberg. It would be more of a specialized race engine. Remember when I stated that this engine could be used in something like the RX-9(aka rotary powered supercar)? Also, Mazda could double the sizes of the 10a rotors and use that engine in a more of a mass production situation. Remember the idea is to shorten the already long and heavy 4 rotor while keeping the same displacement. With a smaller/shorter design, it could be adapted for other projects.



Nope thats why you would use both side intake ports as the primaries with the peripheral port as the secondary. Therefore the side plates will not have to be widened. However if we used the Renesis designfor the exhaust, then I understand your point. But remember, the Renesis idea was my second idea not the first. The "Hitman" used thinner plates in his 3 rotor and got excellent results with additional stationary gears added. But like I said above, the additional stationary gears may not be needed.


Lets see! Reusable parts: 20b rear,center, and front side plates could be reused as well as the 3 rotor UIM. Only main newer parts would be the double wide rotors & apex seals and housings to match. Also a new LIM for the peripheral ports.

 

I've re-quoted myself to much in these last few post so, here it is again for you guys to re-read it.

 

some day when u guys win the lottery and make the 2+2 motor and it's a big success (with the sparkplugs on the rotor face{2 on rotor face 4 on housing if possible} be sure to let everyone know Mr. BiG G was the brain behind the 2+2

laters
have fun rotarying

 

i actually bought my first lotto ticket last night.... didnt win jack

 

Now here's an idea for you lot to ponder over...

How to fit a supercharger to a semi-PP rotary, or in other words - how to reduce the overlap enough on the PP to allow significant boost.

Later-opening PP? Earlier opening Exhaust?

Or how about an entirely different style of PP? Like drilled through the intermediate plate from the top, using a (kind of) standard side-port. But instead of using a big old circular port, you use a long oval, using bridges if nessecary. If you done this, wouldn't it be possible to use a supercharger AND a PP setup?

I know it wouldn't have the same VE as a standard PP, but it would be more "streetable" if you were able to block off the outlet into the chamber to help the CR at low revs - much like the 5th and 6th ports on a 13b.



But with the idea of putting spark plugs on the rotor face - how about using two Tungsten tips pointed towards each other? And if used in conjunction with a cleaning agent, it COULD be an answer.

When it starts getting a bit rough - push a button, and it injects a pre-determined amount of something like Redex to clean the sparks. You could have a commutator on the inside edge of the e-shaft, and have an insulated wire/wires going through it to the coil/coils which could be connected to the ends of the e-shaft

and just out of curiosity, does anyone have links to anywhere on those DKM 29Bhp@125cc? Sounds interesting (hehe - my mini only has 36Bhp)

 

yea i found the DKM kinda interesting! lets see some links or more info

 

anyone?

 

Wouldn't an earlier opening exhaust cause some power loss? What size engine would you put such a SC on?

 

ok i found some good info on it:

The experimental unit was named the DKM 54

Testing began in January 1957. Unfortunately management had personality conflicts with Wankel so he was not invited on February 1, 1957 when the DKM 54 was fired up for the first time on the third try. The fuel was based on methanol. Gasoline was first used in April, yielding 15 bhp at 9000 rpm. The engine ran for two hours by the end of May at 21 bhp. By June 1958 it had survived a 100 hour test.

The chamber volume was 125 cc., best performance 29 hp (DIN) at 17000 rpm, engine diameter only about 260 mm, shaft offset 9.5 mm. Three spark plugs rotated with the inner rotor.

Four units were built but the DKM 54 remained the only NSU DKM type engine ever constructed. One of them got its due place in the Neckarsulm (Germany) Museum.

http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/pg05.htm

in the DKM the rotor housing rotated and the eccentric shaft stayed stationary....it's pretty interesting....so this could pretty much have between 250-290hp if it was a 1250cc motor....see the bad part in their design was that the entire motor was rotating and they had 3 sparkers on the rotor only....with my design.....i wanna have the same 3 sparkers on the rotor and 4 on the housing plus instead of the entire heavy motor rotating we have lightened aluminum rotors rotating!

owww brain cramp.....too much thinkeration!

 

well i think once someones gets the cashflow we will build this

 

heh i know i will if i get the cash flow....heres some more info on that:

DKM operating principle (Left)

The basis of the DKM type engine is that both the rotor and the housing spin around seperate axises. By some magic of geometry the rotor meshes with the rotor housing and there is a changing chamber volume which will allow the engine to run by the normal combustion process.
I find this concept easier to understand by using a standard mazda eccentric shaft, rotor and housing. If you hold the eccentric shaft in a vice, you can spin the rotor housing around and the rotor will turn inside the housing. Note that both the rotor and the housing spin around seperate axises (the rotor on the big lobe of the eccentric shaft and the housing around the eccentric shaft bearing).
In summary, the DKM works exactly the same as the KKM (standard rotary), but is reversed as the "eccentric shaft" is stationary and the rotor housing moves.


Because all the components in the DKM spin around their own axis they can be completely "naturally/internally" balanced (just like a turbocharger wheel which can spin at 100,000+ rpm with no vibration), the engine does not need any counterweights (like a Mazda rotary does). This allows RPM levels limited only by the strength of the metal - even back in 1957 they attained 17,000 rpm. Perhaps using current materials 40,000 rpm would be possible.

 

40 frikkin thousand rpm....now thats the **** im talkin about.....so we basically end up with a prolly like 350-400bhp N/A motor

 

this is tighter than a virgin on prom night

 

with stock ports by the way and maybe after street porting and turboing.......ahhhhh i just blew my load with that thought

 

as soon as this buzz wears off from 8 doses of cough syrup i will get started on it, recomended dose 1 every 6 hours :P

 

i have a feeling someone is gonna burst our lil bubble

 

pop!.....sorry guys....i had to pop it.
that sounds really sweet. So where is this money comeing from, how many banks are you robbing.

 

I think about 5-8 banks shold do it!!

But I cant get onto that site (bandwidth was exceeded by the time i wanted to look at it!!) But how the hell do you supply the fuel to it if the entire housing is rotating?!? Let alone putting a turbo on it!!

 

naw, i think we should heist a big rig, the last one on a rutine check had 6 mill in it !!!

 

sounds good to me