Propane Injection – Ken’s Findings
05-06-02, 08:06 AM
#101
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Originally posted by kabooski
well The DR propane system is exacly the same application
NOS is used for over 50 years
with great success
If you car is tuned right it will not blow up from a
50-75-100 shot of NOS
That is something Drag Racers Like myself
are willing to sacrifice
are you?
well The DR propane system is exacly the same application
NOS is used for over 50 years
with great success
If you car is tuned right it will not blow up from a
50-75-100 shot of NOS
That is something Drag Racers Like myself
are willing to sacrifice
are you?
for NOS. If is not it can blow up.
High compressions engines are not for NOS.
Weak stock engines are not ether.
I don't think you wher around 50 years ago like some of us. There was no NOS at my drag strip in the early 60's
ED
05-06-02, 11:00 AM
#103
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RX7tt95, you need to read the entire thread rather then reasking the same questions here... thats why I posted it.
Ryan with a 3kgt is running up to 20psi on the propane, he can normally run 15psi on pump gas (most 3kgt's run 15psi on pump gas, not 17)
He has an open air BOV, and has experienced no downsides other then being able to smell the propane. It has not ignited, and the AFR of the propane in the engine compartment is not nearly high enough to allow it to ignite. He has been running the kit on pump gas for a couple months now without any issues.
I dont have a 3kgt -- I normally run 18psi on pump gas (supras can run more boost on pump gas) -- With the propane, i usually run about 21 psi.
Propane will increase power at the same boost level. There are two reasons: 1. Intake charge temp -- propane is very cold, and it acts as a gaseous intercooler of sorts. How much it cools depends on how much propane you spray, the more, the cooler (to a point) -- Yes, you will need to pull out fuel with some type of fuel controller (I use an S-AFC) or your car will run extra rich. 2. Octane increase -- Most of the time, people like you and I run the car on the ragged edge of knock. What I mean by that, is that we usually get a very slight amount of knock, which will knock down the timing just slightly. With the propane, the same boost you were running previously and getting very slight knock, you will now get none.
Primarily tho, the propane is just like alcohol, except better in many ways. Its primary function is to allow you to increase boost on pump gas, or if you are maxing out your fuel system, to go beyond that.
So luv, you will probably see a very slight improvement in performance with the propane at the same boost level, but you will also have a very large "safety net" now -- The octane increase adds alot of safety... what happens if your car is tuned for hot weather, and it becomes very cold all of the sudden. If you were on the edge before, the temperature change is going to cause a boost increase that your engine may not have been able to handle previously -- Having an extra 10 octane points or so is really beneficial in those types of situations.
As far as safety, the DR kit uses the same bottle, gauge, lines, etc as the BTR kit which has been installed on thousands of vipers, corvettes, fbodies, etc without a single issue arising. And theirs uses nitrous and propane
Ryan with a 3kgt is running up to 20psi on the propane, he can normally run 15psi on pump gas (most 3kgt's run 15psi on pump gas, not 17)
He has an open air BOV, and has experienced no downsides other then being able to smell the propane. It has not ignited, and the AFR of the propane in the engine compartment is not nearly high enough to allow it to ignite. He has been running the kit on pump gas for a couple months now without any issues.
I dont have a 3kgt -- I normally run 18psi on pump gas (supras can run more boost on pump gas) -- With the propane, i usually run about 21 psi.
Propane will increase power at the same boost level. There are two reasons: 1. Intake charge temp -- propane is very cold, and it acts as a gaseous intercooler of sorts. How much it cools depends on how much propane you spray, the more, the cooler (to a point) -- Yes, you will need to pull out fuel with some type of fuel controller (I use an S-AFC) or your car will run extra rich. 2. Octane increase -- Most of the time, people like you and I run the car on the ragged edge of knock. What I mean by that, is that we usually get a very slight amount of knock, which will knock down the timing just slightly. With the propane, the same boost you were running previously and getting very slight knock, you will now get none.
Primarily tho, the propane is just like alcohol, except better in many ways. Its primary function is to allow you to increase boost on pump gas, or if you are maxing out your fuel system, to go beyond that.
So luv, you will probably see a very slight improvement in performance with the propane at the same boost level, but you will also have a very large "safety net" now -- The octane increase adds alot of safety... what happens if your car is tuned for hot weather, and it becomes very cold all of the sudden. If you were on the edge before, the temperature change is going to cause a boost increase that your engine may not have been able to handle previously -- Having an extra 10 octane points or so is really beneficial in those types of situations.
As far as safety, the DR kit uses the same bottle, gauge, lines, etc as the BTR kit which has been installed on thousands of vipers, corvettes, fbodies, etc without a single issue arising. And theirs uses nitrous and propane
05-06-02, 11:31 AM
#104
ekool
How much propane are you dumping in compared to gasoline. Must be a lot to get that much of an octane boost.
I'm pleased to here that there have been no disasters todate with excess propane coming out of BOVs.
Well, I think this thread has been worthwhile and seems to be getting better. At least it's getting lots of views.
People are probably interested on how bad Ken is going to get ripped next.
Ha, Ha.
Ken
How much propane are you dumping in compared to gasoline. Must be a lot to get that much of an octane boost.
I'm pleased to here that there have been no disasters todate with excess propane coming out of BOVs.
Well, I think this thread has been worthwhile and seems to be getting better. At least it's getting lots of views.
People are probably interested on how bad Ken is going to get ripped next.
Ha, Ha.
Ken
05-06-02, 06:23 PM
#108
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Ekool, I did read everything and the only response as to it's safety was from you and Dave(?) from DR. I said that I don't know enough to state whether that's an issue or not. I'm willing to bet that the rotary engine bay runs a "bit" hotter than most, although a glowing exhaust housing is a glowing exhaust housing no?
The "simple" solution is to simply route it back into the intake tract somewhere (as stated in the posts on the other forum), but that's pretty difficult to do given the fact that on the RX7, if you've placed the BOV as close to possible to the TB, you'd have to route it to the other side of the engine bay near the filter(s). I can't see it being a problem with a sequential system using an enclosed airbox like I have (Crooked Willow), but with say a single turbo setup, there may be issues. How about a quicker reacting solenoid? Is the "trigger" simply boost activated or can you set the level? If we were to set it for something like 7psi and up, as the TB is closed, boost drops, and the solenoid shuts off the supply of lpg. I'm assuming that what is happening is the solenoids are not closing quickly enough and a bit escapes before the throttle body closes and is vented out by a BOV. I personally would place the "fogger" or nozzle in a GReddy elbow. It'd be a good 12" from a blowoff valve. I am unfamiliar with the pipe and BOV routing on the 3000's, so it's unclear to me why propane is escaping out the BOV.
But...like you've said, there are lots of other car groups (Vipers, C5's, etc...) using propane. I have yet to see a propane only kit other than DR's, so if there is one being used by say the Corvette guys (I'm sure it'll be much more expensive than the DR kit!), let us know. I'm sure it would sway some people in your direction.
I'm merely asking questions I myself do not have the answer to but would like to know before purchasing a propane injection kit. It's probably a PITA to go through this with every new group of car guys, but it is something new and untried by the greater majority of the RX7 community. FWIW, I'm really interested in this kit, even moreso since seeing the BTR guys are using it on $70K Vipers. :-)
As for tuning, I've been looking for that magic stuff that'll simply give more hp without additional tuning. I run a Power FC, fully programmable, with a datalogit, so tuning isn't the issue. If/when I run out of propane, I'm screwed, and will basically have to go easy until I can get a refill. I did the refill with nitrous for so long I absolutely hate it. But...the benefits of propane seem to outweigh the added inconvenience. Have you ever recorded any actual drop in IAT's using propane? Being in SW Florida (subtropical), things get downright hot and muggy to boot. The thought of running lower IAT's without having to get the car moving (and cool down the IC) is appealing. Just how much of a drop should we expect? 10, 20, 30 degrees celcius?
I do understand the ragged edge concept. Most are a few steps shy of that, especially if they are running turbocharged rotaries. Knock, even a little knock on a rotary, will kill it. Quickly. Which is why the thought of a boost in octane is also pleasing. It would seem that you'd need a greater ratio than what you are if propane is 110/104 octane.
Michel
The "simple" solution is to simply route it back into the intake tract somewhere (as stated in the posts on the other forum), but that's pretty difficult to do given the fact that on the RX7, if you've placed the BOV as close to possible to the TB, you'd have to route it to the other side of the engine bay near the filter(s). I can't see it being a problem with a sequential system using an enclosed airbox like I have (Crooked Willow), but with say a single turbo setup, there may be issues. How about a quicker reacting solenoid? Is the "trigger" simply boost activated or can you set the level? If we were to set it for something like 7psi and up, as the TB is closed, boost drops, and the solenoid shuts off the supply of lpg. I'm assuming that what is happening is the solenoids are not closing quickly enough and a bit escapes before the throttle body closes and is vented out by a BOV. I personally would place the "fogger" or nozzle in a GReddy elbow. It'd be a good 12" from a blowoff valve. I am unfamiliar with the pipe and BOV routing on the 3000's, so it's unclear to me why propane is escaping out the BOV.
But...like you've said, there are lots of other car groups (Vipers, C5's, etc...) using propane. I have yet to see a propane only kit other than DR's, so if there is one being used by say the Corvette guys (I'm sure it'll be much more expensive than the DR kit!), let us know. I'm sure it would sway some people in your direction.
I'm merely asking questions I myself do not have the answer to but would like to know before purchasing a propane injection kit. It's probably a PITA to go through this with every new group of car guys, but it is something new and untried by the greater majority of the RX7 community. FWIW, I'm really interested in this kit, even moreso since seeing the BTR guys are using it on $70K Vipers. :-)
As for tuning, I've been looking for that magic stuff that'll simply give more hp without additional tuning. I run a Power FC, fully programmable, with a datalogit, so tuning isn't the issue. If/when I run out of propane, I'm screwed, and will basically have to go easy until I can get a refill. I did the refill with nitrous for so long I absolutely hate it. But...the benefits of propane seem to outweigh the added inconvenience. Have you ever recorded any actual drop in IAT's using propane? Being in SW Florida (subtropical), things get downright hot and muggy to boot. The thought of running lower IAT's without having to get the car moving (and cool down the IC) is appealing. Just how much of a drop should we expect? 10, 20, 30 degrees celcius?
I do understand the ragged edge concept. Most are a few steps shy of that, especially if they are running turbocharged rotaries. Knock, even a little knock on a rotary, will kill it. Quickly. Which is why the thought of a boost in octane is also pleasing. It would seem that you'd need a greater ratio than what you are if propane is 110/104 octane.
Michel
05-07-02, 02:28 AM
#109
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Why not just inject propane after the throttle body? With water injection, you inject it just after the intercooler outlet, to allow the longest possible cooling period. With propane being injected in a gaseous form, I don't see this being as much of an issue. Correct me if I'm wrong.
05-07-02, 07:40 AM
#110
how do you adjust the ammount of propane? if your running a 53 jet.
I mean I understand you use a pressure swicth and WOT switch.
but how do you get it to raise in rate with boost so you can tune it so your not just dumping propane in.
Im running the Haltech E6K in my car
is there some kinda raising rate reg that adjust the amount injected? or some type of siolond that the haltech can open a close depending on the boost level.
do you inject before the TB or after the TB
I mean I understand you use a pressure swicth and WOT switch.
but how do you get it to raise in rate with boost so you can tune it so your not just dumping propane in.
Im running the Haltech E6K in my car
is there some kinda raising rate reg that adjust the amount injected? or some type of siolond that the haltech can open a close depending on the boost level.
do you inject before the TB or after the TB
05-07-02, 07:57 AM
#111
Originally posted by 87GTR how do you adjust the ammount of propane? if your running a 53 jet.
I mean I understand you use a pressure swicth and WOT switch.
but how do you get it to raise in rate with boost so you can tune it so your not just dumping propane in.
Im running the Haltech E6K in my car
is there some kinda raising rate reg that adjust the amount injected? or some type of siolond that the haltech can open a close depending on the boost level.
do you inject before the TB or after the TB
I mean I understand you use a pressure swicth and WOT switch.
but how do you get it to raise in rate with boost so you can tune it so your not just dumping propane in.
Im running the Haltech E6K in my car
is there some kinda raising rate reg that adjust the amount injected? or some type of siolond that the haltech can open a close depending on the boost level.
do you inject before the TB or after the TB
If propane is 110 octane and it is 15% and gasoline is 94 octane and it is 85% that comes out to the total mix being 96.4 octane.
Ken
05-07-02, 03:54 PM
#113
This thread seems to be slowing down. I think it was a good one with its ups and downs. Over 1400 views and 111 posts in 16 days are pretty good. I have come to the following conclusions:
It looks like for strictly drag racers that want short-term power gains they can use the DR kit or something like it to be able to run higher boost without detonation and will have a cooler intake air temp that will also help power. Hopefully this technology will continue to be safe.
For others wanting emission help, cooler engine running temps, an octane boost and a MPG gain then maybe Welsh’s kit is better. It looks like Welsh’s claims of a significant power boost at the same boost level are not there. At least no one has proved it to me yet.
For me it probably is not cost justified to run a kit like DRs as I already have the methanol/water injection benefits. The same goes for the Welsh kit, not cost-justified unless there is at least a 10%+ power gain at the same boost level. With my methanol/water I can run high boost (20+psi) with a mixture of pump gas and high octane (116 unleaded) and hopefully not have detonation problems.
I hope to be able to run 15 psi on pump gas. I think KDR thinks I can. I’ll only run high boost rarely, like when someone bets me $100 they can beat me. Then I’ll take the chance on dumping 116 octanes in and up the boost to 20+ and kick their butts. My drag simulation program showed me these numbers with street tires: 11.42 et and 123 mph with 15psi and 11.18 and 130 mph. 15 psi had .1 second wheel spin and 22 psi had .4 seconds wheel spin. I will not be doing any dead stop high rpm launches, as I don’t want to break anything. My 20-100mph times should be about 7 seconds at 15 psi and 6.3 seconds at 22psi. To give you a comparison the stock 2002 Z06 Corvette does 20-100mph in 9 seconds flat. So there aren’t really any stock production cars that can beat me. I can verify these numbers when I finally get my car with my Vericom computer, which can measure time in 10 mph increments and is 1-2% accurate.
Thanx to all those that posted to this thread, it has been informative for me.
Ken
It looks like for strictly drag racers that want short-term power gains they can use the DR kit or something like it to be able to run higher boost without detonation and will have a cooler intake air temp that will also help power. Hopefully this technology will continue to be safe.
For others wanting emission help, cooler engine running temps, an octane boost and a MPG gain then maybe Welsh’s kit is better. It looks like Welsh’s claims of a significant power boost at the same boost level are not there. At least no one has proved it to me yet.
For me it probably is not cost justified to run a kit like DRs as I already have the methanol/water injection benefits. The same goes for the Welsh kit, not cost-justified unless there is at least a 10%+ power gain at the same boost level. With my methanol/water I can run high boost (20+psi) with a mixture of pump gas and high octane (116 unleaded) and hopefully not have detonation problems.
I hope to be able to run 15 psi on pump gas. I think KDR thinks I can. I’ll only run high boost rarely, like when someone bets me $100 they can beat me. Then I’ll take the chance on dumping 116 octanes in and up the boost to 20+ and kick their butts. My drag simulation program showed me these numbers with street tires: 11.42 et and 123 mph with 15psi and 11.18 and 130 mph. 15 psi had .1 second wheel spin and 22 psi had .4 seconds wheel spin. I will not be doing any dead stop high rpm launches, as I don’t want to break anything. My 20-100mph times should be about 7 seconds at 15 psi and 6.3 seconds at 22psi. To give you a comparison the stock 2002 Z06 Corvette does 20-100mph in 9 seconds flat. So there aren’t really any stock production cars that can beat me. I can verify these numbers when I finally get my car with my Vericom computer, which can measure time in 10 mph increments and is 1-2% accurate.
Thanx to all those that posted to this thread, it has been informative for me.
Ken
05-08-02, 02:10 PM
#116
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FYI
Dynamic Racing is still selling the kit however there are on a huge back order! Also they will be coming out with a new kit in the future for the people who are not crazy about having a tank mounted inside the car, I was told it will be expensive though.
Nos and propane are controlled by jet size and bottle pressure. Whats makes you think its not tunable? You pull fuel and add fuel as needed through a PFC, PMS etc. Its that simple
Dynamic Racing is still selling the kit however there are on a huge back order! Also they will be coming out with a new kit in the future for the people who are not crazy about having a tank mounted inside the car, I was told it will be expensive though.
I dont want to just shoot uncontrolled amounts of propane into the motor.
NOS or N20 is not just Dumped in the motor in hopes you hit the right mix!!!!
if Im going to use it on my car its going to be tunable!!!!
NOS or N20 is not just Dumped in the motor in hopes you hit the right mix!!!!
if Im going to use it on my car its going to be tunable!!!!
05-08-02, 07:02 PM
#117
PFC PMS?????
so you inject a set rate of propane or N02 then adjust your fuel maps?
sounds like a pain you have to have a map for propane and a map for with out.
I think it would be better to controll the amount or propane going into the motor just like an injector
open your bottle all the way use a 53 jet so you know the max amount it can inject, then use soilond and dutycycle to controll how much psi is in the line. so as boost increase the duty cycle goes up letting more propane in. so it raise in a ratio to the boost
does what I say about the adjusting the amount of propane or n02 sound right?
so you inject a set rate of propane or N02 then adjust your fuel maps?
sounds like a pain you have to have a map for propane and a map for with out.
I think it would be better to controll the amount or propane going into the motor just like an injector
open your bottle all the way use a 53 jet so you know the max amount it can inject, then use soilond and dutycycle to controll how much psi is in the line. so as boost increase the duty cycle goes up letting more propane in. so it raise in a ratio to the boost
does what I say about the adjusting the amount of propane or n02 sound right?
05-08-02, 10:08 PM
#118
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87GTR
Yes, I do see what your saying. To be honest it sounds like a good idea!
However I would still say some tuning would have to be done to get the most out of it and be safe.
This might sound stupid to some and I dont recommend it but check this out... The propane is going to cause a rich condition, so it could be adjusted by just increasing the boost assuming your jet is not to big. (Im talking like a 3-4 psi increase not no 10psi cause your jet is way to big).
In my case the main reason Im interested in propane is just so I can run more boost safely. Im running 14 psi now, Ive ran up to 16psi and will run 18psi with propane right out the box. With some careful tuning I would like to run 20psi on pump gas.
I use a Peter Farrel PMC (same as the EFI PMS) to control fuel, timing etc. IMO its a POS, but for now its all I got. One good feature is I can create 3 maps and toggle back and forth through them. So in my case the I could do one of two things, Just have two separate maps. Or better yet I can use the NOS feature, which is an additional map activated by the NOS or propane solenoid. So in my case the tuning would be no problem.
Yes, I do see what your saying. To be honest it sounds like a good idea!
However I would still say some tuning would have to be done to get the most out of it and be safe.
This might sound stupid to some and I dont recommend it but check this out... The propane is going to cause a rich condition, so it could be adjusted by just increasing the boost assuming your jet is not to big. (Im talking like a 3-4 psi increase not no 10psi cause your jet is way to big).
In my case the main reason Im interested in propane is just so I can run more boost safely. Im running 14 psi now, Ive ran up to 16psi and will run 18psi with propane right out the box. With some careful tuning I would like to run 20psi on pump gas.
I use a Peter Farrel PMC (same as the EFI PMS) to control fuel, timing etc. IMO its a POS, but for now its all I got. One good feature is I can create 3 maps and toggle back and forth through them. So in my case the I could do one of two things, Just have two separate maps. Or better yet I can use the NOS feature, which is an additional map activated by the NOS or propane solenoid. So in my case the tuning would be no problem.
09-06-05, 04:38 PM
#121
Rotary Enthusiast
why dont you guys go read up on how banks systems and other types of systems for the variouse desil trucks....
its really very simplistic.
our f250 at work has one. we get a whooping 1 or 2 mpg more is all from it and gain a bit of top end power.
its really very simplistic.
our f250 at work has one. we get a whooping 1 or 2 mpg more is all from it and gain a bit of top end power.
09-09-05, 04:51 AM
#122
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I have looked into propane as a primary fuel, and propane won't offer as much power as gasoline will, so injecting it with the gas will not incraese power, you only get more power by increasing your boost pressure since propane has a much higher octane rating. Straight propane has a octane rating of 110, and it can have octane boostes added to it reaching octane ratings of 130.
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