yellowbird

Please do not take offense, BUT Octane is the fuel's resistance to spontaneous ignition, the higher the octane rating the more resstance the fuel has to spontaneously combusting in high pressure+temprature environments:

The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.
The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together.

It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio.

J

peejay

Not do turn this into a discussion on Diesels... but if the fuel didn't burn immediately after it was injected, then why is it so critical that the injection is correctly timed?

By the time the fuel in injected, the air in the cylinder is compressed and has significant heat. The fuel does begin to burn immediately upon injection.

95MX6

My original thoughts on this where diesels inject had the injection event happening just like a gas engine (near the bottom of the stroke), which would have to happen in a carb'd diesel. But the other week watching Connections on the Discover Channel they had a series of diagrams showing the diesel cycle, it showed the fuel being injected just before top dead center. These differences would explain the large power/fuel consumption difference between carb'd and EFI diesels, since you could have a higher compression ratio with EFI (by not worrying about premature detention).

Method 1 requires no special timing. Method 2 requires accurate timing and injection.

Of course I could be talking out of my *** on this, since I am NOT a diesel expert.

peejay

Diesels run off of detonation. They inhale pure air, and have extremely high compression (17-23:1). The compression gets the air super-hot, and the fuel burns as soon as it is injected. There is no throttle blade - power is controlled by how much fuel is injected.

A generic term for Diesel engine is "compression ignition" because it is the heat of compression that causes ignition, instead of using a spark.

When an engine "runs on" after being shut off, it's said to be "dieseling", because it is running entirely off of hot spots in the combustion chamber, no spark necessary. Dieseling was so common in the '70s that manufacturers devised all sorts of ways to combat it, usually a solenoid that altered idle speed with the ignition off, but the easiest way was to just shut the engine off with the car in gear.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

I have to apologize for not getting back to you guys sooner. I still have not received my information package from Welsh Technologies. John says he sent it, but it’s been a week so I don’t know if it went to the wrong address or lost in mail. Should not take this long. Anyways I will post as soon as I have something worthwhile to post. Sorry for the delays.

I guess I’m used to delays. My car is waiting for the AEM EMS ecu.

Thanx

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

I finally received my info packet from Welsh today. I will be posting pertinent info as I decipher it. First off, on the subject of emissions I knew that would be good. Here is an emissions test from AZ on a 1985 Porsche 944 with 85,000 miles.

This Vehicle Standard
Hydrocarbons 1.01 2.00
Carbon Monoxide .1 30.0
Oxides of Nitrogen 1.8 3.0

1990 Chev 454 Pick-up with 35,000 miles

This Vehicle Standard
Hydrocarbons .06 3.20
Carbon Monoxide 1.9 80.0
Oxides of Nitrogen .3 3.5

I still have lots of questions for Welsh and as I get them answered I will pass the info on to you.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Cost of fuel study.

Gasoline burning Chev Blazer averages 9 mpg using gasoline.

Vehicle has 73,000 miles on it now.

Using gasoline only

3000 miles / 9mpg = 333.33 gallons x $1.50 a gallon = $500 / 3000 = $.167 per mile fuel cost.

Using gasoline with propane study

3157 miles using 261 gallons at $1.50 a gallon + 14 gallons of propane at $2.00 a gallon = $419 / 3157 = $.133 per mile fuel cost.

Propane usage is about 5% of gasoline usage. Cost per mile fuel savings is about 20% using propane injection with Welsh’s kit.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Here is how Welsh’s kit works according to his documentation.

"The kit injects a measured quantity of treated, controlled, and vaporized gaseous alternate fuel mixture. The existing liquid fuels of gasoline are injected as per the existing means in the cylinder. When both the intake and exhaust valves close and the compression stroke of the engine occurs, where liquid fuel is usually returning to a liquid state, the new air/fuel mixture created by Welsh’s kit causes a catalytic reaction that caused a pre-heating condition of the new air/fuel mixture. This catalytic reaction causes virtually all of the liquid to vaporize mixing with the air to become volatized. When ignition of the air/fuel mixture occurs, there is a virtually total vaporized and volatized air/fuel mixture that results in a complete explosion pushing the piston downward. Since all of the air/fuel mixture was completely vaporized and volatized there is one explosion and not a combustion wave. This one explosion increases the low-torque output of the engine. Since all of the air/fuel was consumed in the one explosion there are no additional explosions or a combustion wave. Since explosion with the Welsh kit is virtually complete customers are advised to use fuels with lower octane ratings for additional fuel savings and to maximize the energy content of the fuels, so combustion occurs immediately at ignition.

Since the combustion is virtually complete, all the fuels are consumed in the engine and their benefit of energy is obtained. Less liquid fuel is required to achieve the same operating conditions resulting in lower fuel expenses. Since the combustion is complete virtually no hydrocarbon emissions are released from the engine. The catalytic converter although still in place does not have to “burn-up” the un-burned fuel. Since there is no combustion wave, the exhaust is not reheated to excessive temperatures and NOx emissions are virtually not formed. Exhaust temperatures are significantly reduced. The engine does not have to remove as much heat so engine oil temperatures are as much as 20-30 degrees cooler: thereby increasing engine and oil life and helping the engine from over-heating concerns. Along with the “clean combustion” and the alternate fuels dissolving and combusting the built-up deposits of tar and carbon the oil does not require replacement as often as well engine tune-ups and increases engine life."

I also received a chart on torque and horsepower improvements. It was not your normal dyno sheet, so I have a lot of questions for John on that all-important item. I want to see a real dyno chart. I know if I purchase a kit, then it will be dynoed at KDR with and without propane to prove to me what the improvements will be on my car.

Welsh’s packet shows a picture of a V6 with 90,000 miles of propane usage. The cylinder chambers appear virtually new. They show it new and after 90k miles, very little difference.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

As most of you know, I’m not really concerned about emissions. I’m interested in the other advantages. Cooler running motor, cooler EGT, cooler air intake, lower cost per mile total fuel costs and MOST of all power improvements. I’m trying to read the graph on the documentation and the best I can come up with is at the very low end 500 rpms there is about a 50-60% improvement in torque and horsepower and it becomes less of an advantage as you go up the rpm scale to about 10% improvement at the peak which in this case is 5600 rpms. Anyways it is a manually put together graph and I need to talk to John some more about a real world example from a dyno. If the chart were accurate this would be good for our RX-7s as we have lousy low-end power. A 50% improvement at the low end would help our 60’ and 0-60mph times. I personally would seriously consider buying this kit if I did get an average of 50% improvement to 3000rpms and dwindling to 10% improvement at 7000 rpms. Anyways, we’ll have to see what John comes up with in this key area for us performance people.

Ken

Node

iTrader: (1)

Emissions would be a big help, because you know how crappy some RX-7's can do when it comes time. Especially high performance N/A's, and it's best for them to use lowest octane as it is....hmmmm, also they have really crappy gas mileage past a certain performance point (full exhaust, and other mods)

peejay

What does any of all that have anything to do with propane use only under boost, as an anti-detonant?

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

He has a lot in his info pack on emissions. I did not want to do that much typing on that subject as I'm not a typist and I'm not interested in emissions. But needless to say that's the main selling point of his product - clean air and very low emissions. Burn all the fuel and there isn't much left for the cat to clean up. He claims you can pass without a cat. I had a FC years ago and it costs me a lot of $$ every year to pass those darn emission tests. I hated it. I'd buy it just for that feature, luckily my state dumped those tests two years ago. That's when I decided to soup my FD up.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

For the heck of it I did a cartest2000 simulation building my estimate dyno of my car with a nice dyno curve with a peak of 400rwhp. I did a 3k launch and got these numbers with not very sticky tires. 60' time 2.14 and 0-60mph in 3.78. I then took all the same settings and upped the dyno curve by adding 60% at 500rpms and kept cutting back the % increase to 6% gain at 7500rpms. Per 500rpm increments I went from 60-55-50-45-35-25-20-15-10-10-9-8-6% increases through the dyno power curve. I hope you get the picture. Anyways I did a run at 3k launch and same non-sticky tires and I got 60' time of 1.78 and 0-60mph of 3.21.
So all that low end power increase gave me 60' of 1.78 instead of 2.14, that's a big improvement. 0-60mph went from 3.78 down to 3.21, that's not bad either.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Remember cartest2000 everything is optimal. Never get those times in the real world but it gives a good comparision of different settings.

The 1/4 mile times were 11.93 and 127.05mph compared to 11.31 and 129.17 with propane and all that extra low end power.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

These are the dyno numbers I used for my cartest2000 simulation runs. JIMLAB would understand. He uses cartest2000 to help him find the optimal re ration for his V8 Chev FD project. I think it came out to 3.27 ratio for him.

This is the dyno curves I used.

RPMs---gas---gas/---+%
--------------propane
0500----10----16----60
1000----20----31----55
1500----30----45----50
2000----40----58----45
2500----60----84----40
3000--110---148----35
3500--155---200----30
4000--190---237----25
4500--250---300----20
5000--280---322----15
5500--325---357----10
6000--370---407----10
6500--400---436----09
7000--400---432----08
7500--400---424----06
8000--400---408----02

Shift points were 7500 rpms

Ken

kabooski

I've been not responding for a while sitting back seeing
what your TRUE intentions where

Now you have stated what I knew from the start

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

I have decided that I already have most of the advantages of propane injection covered with my methanol/water injection kit. I’ll have reduced emissions (which I don’t care about), cooler intake temps, lower EGT, cleaner burning engine, able to run higher boost safely and a boost in octane rating. The improved cost per fuel consumption will not be cost justified in my case unless I see a proven power gain. If I can see a valid dyno chart showing significant power gains then I would seriously consider propane injection. So far I have only seen this with diesel burning engines. I’m in no rush as I’m still waiting for the AEM EMS ecu, which is due out 6-15-02. So Welsh has plenty of time to prove his power improvement gains in my case.

Ken

POLAR-MAZDA

Please explain.

cymrex

iTrader: (2)

I found the following interesting on the US Patent and Trademark Office site. From Patent 5816224:

"The theory by which gaseous fuel injection results in increased liquid fuel economy and decreased emissions is due to the presence of the gaseous fuel surrounding the liquid fuel molecules allowing increased heat to volatilize the liquid fuel in the cylinder, allowing the liquid fuel molecules to form into gaseous fuel to gain energy at the start of combustion causing a maximum release of energy from the liquid fuel. Without the insertion of the gaseous fuel the liquid fuel does not completely volatilize.

With the insertion of the gaseous fuel, once the air-fuel mixture is ignited by electrical discharge of the spark plug, instantaneous oxidation of the fuel mixture occurs and it bursts into flames. The high-energy collisions caused by this rapid volatilization and oxidation dissociate molecules into atoms, or free radicals at greater speed. These molecular fragments therefore react with greater ease and combustion takes place immediately. The wave of combustion is thereby intensified throughout the explosive mixture and occurs at the start of the cycle.

With the addition of gaseous fuel, substantially instantaneous combustion occurs at the start of the piston movement in a substantially constant volume process. In comparison, without the gaseous fuel insertion, the combustion of the liquid fuel occurs throughout the travel of the piston and unburned fuel is still present at the end of the combustion cycle.

Due to this constant volume combustion resulting from the presence of the gaseous fuel molecules, the fuel mixture is totally consumed, resulting in reduced pollutants and unburned fuel hydrocarbons being ported out of the exhaust manifold. This increased combustion also results in less heat being produced in the engine since the energy is being consumed instead of wasted as heat output. In addition, this spontaneous combustion causes higher in-cylinder gas velocity that reduces knock resistance and allows the engine to operate knock free on lower octane rated liquid fuels. "

There is also a description of how the Propane is conditioned it is not in a nice summarized fashion for posting here and I do not want to get anything wrong so please go to the site and search by patent number. www.uspto.gov

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

cymrex- Excellent research.

Thanx

Ken

David88vert

5816224

7 years ago today

87GTR

iTrader: (61)

so what parts do you need for a DIY propane kit
I kinda want to give it a try to see what kinda boost I can run. right now my Injectors are maxing out 98% @ 12 psi (4 720's) make a list ~!!!!!!!!

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

My research has been slower than I expected for a couple of reasons. John is very busy and also he has been receiving threatening and harassing e-mails from people that apparently did not like him shutting down Dynamic Racings illegal kit that did not meet government safety standards. These e-mails included death threats on his family and burning down his home. He called me last week really upset as his children read some of these e-mails. Apparently a person even opened up a couple of free YAHOO and HOTMAIL accounts with LUV94RX7 names and John thought some of these e-mails were coming from me. I finally convinced him that these were not from me and that I’m LUV94RX7@AOL.COM.

He told me he has friends at the FBI and was considering tracking these people down. I told him it’s okay with me. I’m not the one threatening him and his family. I told him he should not worry. We have a few immature people on the forum.

Anyways I think he is not as interested in dealing with us due to these e-mails.

I’m done with this project, thanks to some of the members of the forum. You wonder why mature people on the “Big List” don’t come here? Well, now you know.

Ken

ekool

Ken, you really amaze me sometimes.

I really dont know what your problem is, but ever since you came here you have done nothing but spread misinformation. I've tried to be polite about it, but I can clearly see that is not working.

You are as bad as Welsh -- You make statements, trying to pass them off as fact, even tho they are completely false.

You amuse me with your "desktop dyno" figures showing that the Welsh kit is going to magically make your rx7 a low end torque monster.

Your claims that DR's kit are "illegal" and "do not meet government safety standards" are completely false. Can you please specifically point to the laws that DR is breaking by selling an OFF ROAD, RACE USE ONLY propane injection kit? What government standards influence this type of arena, if you dont mind? Do top fuel dragsters have to pass emissions test? Is it illegal for them to inject nitro methane? Could it possibly be the fact that when you sell a product, or use a product off public roads, that you are not bound by those rules?

As mentioned, just like downpipes without cats... Are you innocent in that arena as well? If you use one on public roads, arent you breaking the very law you are flogging as your "running horse" in this situation?

Magicly, Welsh now has an excuse why you never received your "info kit" -- despite the fact that it should have arrived long ago, the new excuse is a good one. I hope Welsh tracks the people that are emailing him down. Threatening family is below the belt, regardless of how high tension may be.

You were snowballed Ken. From day one, you have believed everything Welsh has told you, and you have ignored all the things that I have said. For someone your age, I would expect a little more maturity in the matter, but you are no different then a child that believes his "rock star" is some perfect person simply because he wrote the fan some kind of appreciation letter.. I dont know if it was the fact that you spoke to Welsh on the phone, or what set you off to be such a pawn for his case. To this day, it still baffles me. If you dont understand what i'm saying, just go read all the old threads... read your own posts on this matter. Everytime you mention Welsh, you state everything he has told you as if it was fact, including potential horsepower and torque increases, despite never having one on a rotary, or on a dyno for that matter. Anyone reading this thread can see exactly what I'm saying. It's as clear as day.

As for your statement about the "mature" poeple not coming here... if you are representative of the "mature" people, then I know that I can say with all my heart that people as easily brainwashed as you are not the people I want to be getting advice from. If i didnt know any better, I might think you were some kind of expert stating facts here.... but, with the knowledge I have, i can easily tell that you have no idea what you are talking about, and you are believing some pipe dream that a manufacturer is trying to sell you on.

Go ahead and wait for the AEM unit, another "pipe dream" that no one has ANY experience with at all, believe everything AEM says... just like you've been snowballed on the welsh kit.

For anyone interested in a propane kit, email me privately and i'll be happy to discuss matters with you.

This thread just keeps getting cluttered with advertisements for the non existant Welsh kit from Welsh hand puppets....

ekool@fiendish.net

ekool

Ken,

One more thing I noticed...

You have stated numerous times that the DR kit is supposedly "illegal" and violates "government safety standards"

Welsh, has also stated numerous times that modifying your vehicle to inject ANYTHING into the intake path in any way is also against the law, and also violates government standards..

I noticed from your signature that you are running water injection..

see:

Let me ask you something, since you appear to be breaking the law... would you like it if Welsh turned you in for your obviously illegal water injection kit? What about if he pressed charges on you for patent infringement... your water injection kit is probably as close to Welshs' propane kit as DR's kit is...

I just dont see how you can be on that side of the fence... it blows my mind.