ekool

RX7, I have no idea where you are coming from. Pretty much everything you have asked for, I have already supplied.

I posted my quarter mile times before and after the propane.

I linked to threads previously that gave a detailed run down about things that have changed for me since the propane (like EGT numbers)

Short of me going to the dyno, what more do you want?

I've listed what I run on the street as far as boost without the propane, and with the propane.

These are real world pieces of data if I've ever seen them. Which, I can say, is much better then any information supplied by Welsh. These are performance figures. Welsh has supplied no concrete performance figures whatsoever. What I have not supplied are MPG increases, etc. becuase that is something I dont care about.

I know a little more about RX7's then the average joe, in fact I used to own an FD, and these very forums helped me sell it.

To address your point about Welsh being more of a "scientist" or an "engineer" -- Go to Welsh's homepage... it looks like a home run operation to me, in fact, from the pictures, it looks like a single man project.

Welsh may know alot more about the properties of propane in fuel economy, etc. -- But I can guarantee you, myself and Matt Monett @ DR know alot more about propane as a performance enhancer.

Its about real world testing, and nothing, not even slide rules and gee whiz calculators can touch it. Its the same reason that dyno figures will always be second to track figures.

2000 Excursion Turbo Diesel+Propane == Matts Excursion
2000 ACR Viper NOS+Propane == Matts Viper
1994 Toyota Supra Stock Fuel System+Propane == My Car
1993 3000GT VR4+Propane == Ryans Car (DR Employee)

There also have been kits sold and tested by 3kgt guys... goto www.3si.org and search for propane, there is alot of good information there about people that have their kits in hand, and what kind of performance gains they are seeing. Dont take my word for it, do a little research. I can guarantee that you will find more real world data for the DR kit then you will for the Welsh kit, unless you believe every sales pitch you hear

Rotaries love to run rich, and they hate detonation. Propane is extra fuel, and its high octane. Do I really need to say anymore to justify the performance gains on a rotary (or any car, for that matter)?

As for the Ken matter -- if you dont see my point about him being the Welsh mouthpiece, simply read his old posts. There is still one very excellent point that I brought up that he has yet to address... if he wasnt brainwashed by Welsh, why did he call the DR kit illegal and say that it broke government standards.. there is absolutely no truth behind this statement, yet Welsh and Ken claim it as true.... why is that?

If it were your business, might that **** you off slightly? Do you think its okay for people to go around saying things about your products that are untrue, especially without any justification, whatsoever?

ekool

Real world information abounds here...

http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.ph...hlight=propane

http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.ph...hlight=propane

http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.ph...hlight=propane

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

All I need is a dyno chart with and without propane at the same boost level. That is real world proof to me.

1/4 mile ets are not as good, but the top mph is fairly accurate. It's not a good test if you ran 5psi higher boost with propane to get the better top mph.

On my car 5psi higher boost is worth about 50-60rwhp.

That tells me that propane was used to run a higher boost.

Big deal, my methanol/water injection will allow me to run a higher boost.

Until I see a dyno chart that is not rigged, then I am not going to believe the power improvements with propane.

Welsh told me on the phone to expect 20% improvement. I say show me the dyno chart to prove that.

So far nothing is forthcoming.

Ken

Call 911

Ive stayed out of this thread cause im disappointed in what this has turned in to, and yes Im guilty of bashing Ken in my original thread.

But once again the point has been missed.

Due to the fact propane increases the overall octane rating, and lowers intake temps, and is additional fuel the end result is you can safely run more boost.

Which FYI is all I care about!

If you run 18lbs on pump gas are not going to get any significant HP gain just by spraying propane in that same 18lbs.

The HP gain is coming from the increase of boost.

kabooski

TOP MPH!

are you in insane
who has 0 understanding
of Nitros Injection

OMG that eats the cake

It is a temp application for christ sake!
It not a power adder in the sense of a Turbo or supercharger

IT IS ONLY FOR THE 1/4 MILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is not for you to add performance
get that thru your head!

It is ONLY TO INCREASE your E.T's in the 1/4
If your are NOT INTO DRAG RACING <------------------------
This application will do you NO GOOD

IT IS NOT ALLOWED IN ROAD RACING!

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

If propane does not add a significant power at the same boost then I'm not interested in it.

I can run higher boost with my methanol/water injection.

Significant to me is not a 5% gain. I can run 2 psi more and get 5% gain. Big Deal.

Sounds like you are admitting propane does not in itself significantly add power at the same boost level.

Consequently, it is probably not for me.

As I said before, show me an unrigged dyno chart at the same boost level with and without propane with a significant power gain.

So far none have been forthcoming. Welsh obviously has not provided one. I don't believe claims without real world proof. I'm tried of people saying I am a mouth piece for Welsh. I'll be on his side when I see proof.

As I said before, I don't care about the other advantages of propane, I only care about it if there are significant power improvements at the same boost level. You guys can keep ripping me all you want. I'm 58 years old and I can take it. I know in my heart, I'm doing what is right.

If it can't be proven, then I don't want to invest in it.

Ken

kabooski

Since you LACK ANY understanding:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
What Nitrous Oxide Is and What Nitrous Oxide Isn't
To your engine, nitrous oxide is a more convenient form of normal air. Since we are only interested in the oxygen the air contains, nitrous oxide provides a simple tool for manipulating how much oxygen will be present when you add additional fuel in an attempt to release more power. The power always comes from the fuel source. Nitrous oxide is not a fuel. Nitrous oxide is a convenient way to add the additional oxygen required to burn more fuel. If you add only nitrous oxide and do not add additional fuel, you would just speed up the rate at which your engine is burning the fuel that it normally uses.

This, more often than not, leads to destructive detonation. The energy comes from the fuel, not the nitrous. Nitrous oxide simply allows you to burn a greater quantity of fuel in the same time period; thus, the overall effect is a tremendous increase in the total amount of energy, or power, released from the fuel and available for accelerating your vehicle.

There is no voodoo involved in nitrous oxide. In effect, using nitrous is no different from using a bigger carburetor, a better manifold, a supercharger, or a turbocharger. Understand that the air you and your engine breathe is made up, at sea level, of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and just 1% other gases. Nitrous oxide (N2O) is made by simply taking the 2 major components of earths atmosphere (in this case 2 molecules of nitrogen and 1 molecule of oxygen) and attaching them together with a chemical bond. When the nitrous oxide goes into your engine the heat of combustion breaks the chemical bond to provide your engine more oxygen with which to burn fuel. As you've read, all race engines operate under the same principles: more air (better breathing, supercharging, turbocharging, or nitrous) plus more fuel in a denser vapor equals more power.

Nitrous Oxide Compared to other Performance Products
Dollar for dollar, nitrous oxide offers the most performance a consumer can buy. You could spend thousands of dollars on carburetion, a manifold, valve train components, exhaust, pistons, porting, supercharging, or turbo charging to get the same amount of extra horsepower that a nitrous system would provide for just a few hundred dollars. But this doesn't mean you won't benefit if you also install other performance parts. Once you have installed a nitrous system, all those other performance parts just increase the nitrous power. If you just have a few dollars and want lots of extra power, the best choice is an NOS nitrous system.

Only nitrous is a part time power increaser. All of the standard performance parts put additional stress on the engine and burn more fuel all the time; not to mention what a pain it is to ride around town with a lumpy idle from a camshaft that is barely streetable. Power on demand is one of the great things about a nitrous system; it only works when the driver wants it. All the rest of the time, the engine operates normally; no extra stress, no extra fuel use, and no driveline problems.

Nitrous Oxide and Emissions
Use of nitrous oxide (N2O) doesn't necessarily increase the oxides of nitrogen (NOx) that pollute the air. Of course, NOS makes "race only" systems that are not legal for use on pollution controlled engines. However, many NOS systems have received certification for 50-state emissions legal use in the United States. The approvals for use on emissions controlled vehicles were obtained by independent laboratory testing which proved that these NOS systems do not increase tailpipe emissions in normal driving conditions. We recommend only emissions legal nitrous kits for use on engines subject to emissions and regulations.

Types of Nitrous Oxide Injection Systems
The two most popular types of nitrous oxide systems are spray bar plate systems, such as the Powershot, Cheater, and Big Shot automotive systems (which use a spacer plate between the carburetor and manifold) and direct port. The plate adds nitrous and supplemental fuel to the intake air stream through built-in spray bars. Plate systems are used on automotive engines on the street and in many racing classes.

Direct port systems use specially designed injectors, Fogger nozzles, to add the nitrous and supplemental fuel to each individual intake runner. These systems can flow huge amounts of nitrous and fuel while distributing it evenly to every cylinder. Multiple stage direct port systems have produced much more than 500 extra horsepower on some pro racing engines. All NOS Direct Port systems feature changeable nitrous and fuel jets for horsepower adjustments and system tuning. Direct port systems are used in both street and racing applications on virtually every kind of engine. Some nitrous systems for fuel injection are a variation of Direct Port technology.




The power comes from fuel. The additional power is set by the amount of additional fuel your system supplies while the nitrous system is in operation. If the fuel isn't there, the power won't be either and no amount of nitrous or anything else can bring it back.

There are two controls typically available to manipulate the amount of fuel available during system use; the fuel jet size and the fuel pressure. The correct fuel pressure is read while the system is flowing fuel. Some fuel pressure regulators give false readings because the pressure reading will creep up when the system is not activated. When this happens, the actual flowing fuel pressure will be much lower than expected and can cause problems.

When problems with misfire or detonation are encountered, ALWAYS reduce the size of the nitrous jet first! Remember that the power comes from the fuel, not the nitrous, so trying to cool things down by adding fuel simply adds more power and complicates the problem. Carburetors jetted over-rich run cooler and release less power. Nitrous systems jetted over-rich will possibly just release more power, so if you run into problems, reduce the size of the nitrous jet(s) first.

When you check your spark plugs for signs of how your system is operating, CHECK EVERY SPARK PLUG, not just the easiest plug to get to. No two cylinders ever run exactly alike. Nitrous has the unique characteristic of cleaning the spark plugs very well and leave them looking like you just installed them. If there are any signs of detonation such as tiny silver or black specks deposited on the porcelain, reduce the nitrous jet size. If the ground strap of the spark plug exhibits a bluish-rainbow coloring, reduce the nitrous jet size. If the ground straps shows signs of melting, reduce the nitrous jet size and change to a spark plug with a shorter and thicker ground strap.

If you system suddenly begins to experience problems even though you haven't changed anything, the culprit is most often a clogged nitrous or fuel filter. The instructions that come with your system contain information about where the nitrous and fuel filter screens are located. Check them periodically.

If your experience any problems you don't understand or can't cure, don't hesitate to call our tech line. We're here to help you get the most from your NOS System.

Spark Plugs and Nitrous Oxide: What Works, What Doesn't, and Why
Over the years there seems to have been a great amount of technical material written about the simple operation of a spark plug and what they can do in relation to the way an engine runs. There are a few basic characteristics about spark plugs that you need to know to make an intelligent choice about the correct spark plug for your application. First, and most important; a spark plug must be of the correct design to operate within the environment of your engine, not the other way around. This means that the spark plug has virtually no influence on how the engine burns fuel or runs in general. The correct spark plug will simply survive the conditions present in your engine. A spark plug must maintain a certain temperature to keep itself clean. The wrong heat range can cause an overheated plug or a fouled plug. The heat range refers to the temperature of the ceramic material surrounding the center electrode.

Lean air/fuel ratios are more difficult to light because there are less fuel molecules in the area of the plug gap when the plug is scheduled to fire; thus, projected nose plugs were designed for late-model lean-burn engines. Modern high-energy ignition also allowed larger plug gaps. All the while this was happening, something else happened. Something that no one seems to have really noticed as the real culprit when the issue of factory type plugs being used with nitrous comes up. We'd like to clue you in. Quite often, a factory type, wide-gap projected plug will produce a misfire condition after only a few seconds of nitrous use. The misfire is not due to the heat range. The misfire occurs because the ground strap of the spark plug becomes a glowing ember because it is too long to dissipate the extra heat produced by a nitrous-accelerated burn condition. The correct fix for this phenomenon is to replace the plugs with one that has a shorter ground strap. By doing this, you will shorten the path for the heat being absorbed by the ground strap. You can use the same heat range, you just have to find a non-projected nose plus with a shorter and preferably thicker ground strap.

If you only change the heat range of the spark plug to a colder heat range, you may very well still have the misfire problem. Since the length of the ground strap is the cause of the misfire, a colder spark plug may have the same length of ground strap as the hotter plug you replaced it with.

Spark plug gaps should generally be .030" to .035". Never try to gap a plug designed for an .060" gap down to .035". Find the correct non-projected nose plug designed for an .035" gap.

Frequently asked questions about installing nitrous oxide injection systems

Click here to go Back to Nitrous systems

There's really nothing mystical about nitrous oxide and its application for engines. Very simply, NOS made it better and safer for customer use. The following questions and answers are typical of those fielded by NOS R&D people and we hope that they will be of help to all of those who seek the winning edge.

Q: Will Nitrous affect engine reliability?
A: The key is choosing the correct HP for a given application. A kit that uses the correct factory calibration does not usually cause increased wear. As the energy released in the cylinder increases so do the loads on the various components that must handle them. If the load increases exceed the ability of the components to handle them, added wear takes place. NOS kits are designed for use on demand and only at wide open throttle. Nitrous can be extremely advantageous in that it is only used when you want it, not all the time. All NOS kits are designed for maximum power with reliability for a given applications.

Q: Can I simply bolt a nitrous kit onto my stock engine?
A: Yes. NOS manufactures systems for virtually any stock engine application. The key is to choose the correct kit for a given application; i.e., 4 cyl. engines normally allow an extra 40-60 HP, 6 cyl. engines usually work great between 75-100 extra HP, small block V8's (302/350/400cid) can typically accept up to 140 extra HP, and big block V8's (427-454) might accept from 125-200 extra HP. These suggested ranges provide maximum reliability from most stock engines using cast pistons and cast crank with few or no engine modifications.

Q: What are some of the general rules for even higher HP gains?
A: Genreally, forged aluminum pistons are one of the best modifications you can make. Retard igntion timing by 4-8 degrees (1 to 1-1/2 degrees timing retard per 50 HP gain). In many cases a higher flowing fuel pump may be necessary. Higher octane (100+) racing type fuel mya be required as well as spark plugs 1 to 2 heat ranges colder than normal with gaps closed .025"-.030". For gains over 250 HP, other important modifications could be necessary in addition to those mentioned above. These special modifications may include a forged crankshaft, a high quality race type connecting rods, a high output fuel pump dedicated to feeding the additional fuel requirements of the nitrous system, and a racing fuel with high specific gravity and an octane rating of 110 or more. For more specific information about your application, please contact the NOS technical dept.

Q: How does nitrous work?
A: Nitrous oxide is made up of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). During the combustion process in an engine, at about 572 degrees F, nitrous breaks down and releases oxygen. This extra oxygen creates additional power by allowing more fuel to be burned. Nitrogen acts to buffer, or dampen the increased cylinder pressures helping to control the combustion process. Nitrous also has a tremendous "intercooling" effect by reducing intake charge temperatures by 60 to 75 degrees F.

Q: How much performance improvement can I expect with a nitrous system?
A: For many applications an improvement from 1 to 3 full seconds and 10 to 15 mph in the quarter mile can be expected. Factors such as engine size, tires, jetting, gearing, etc. will effect the final results.

Q: How long will the bottle last?
A: This largely depends on the type of nitrous kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power Shot kit with a standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer up to 7 to 10 full quarter-mile passes. For power levels of 250 HP, 3 to 5 full quarter-mile passes may be expected. If nitrous is only used in 2nd and 3rd gears, the number of runs will be more.

Q: How long can I hold the nitrous button down?
A: It is possible to hold the button down until the bottle is empty. However 15 continuous seconds at a time, or less, is recommended.

Q: When is the best time to use nitrous?
A: At wide open throttle only (unless a progressive controller is used). Due to the tremendous amount of increased torque, you will generally find best results, traction permitting, at early activation. Nitrous can be safely applied above 2500 RPM under full throttle conditions.

Q: Does NOS manufacture 50-state legal nitrous systems?
A: Yes. In fact, NOS has several EO numbers for various kits such as the 5.0L Mustang and 305/350 GM V8's, etc. In addition, there is no need to remove any smog equipment when installing an NOS system. For more information call the NOS tech line.

Q: Will I have to re-jet my carburetor on my car when adding nitrous?
A: No! The NOS system is independent of your carburetor and injects its own mixture of fuel and nitrous.

Q: Is nitrous oxide flammable?
A: No. Nitrous oxide by itself is non-flammable. However, the oxygen present in nitrous oxide causes combustion of fuel to take place more rapidly.

Q: Will nitrous oxide cause detonation?
A: Not directly. Detonation is the result of too little fuel present during combustion (lean) or too low of an octane of fuel. Too much ignition advance also causes detonation. In general, most of our kits engineered for stock type engines will work with premium type fuels and minimal decreases of ignition timing. In racing application where higher compression ratios are used, resulting in higher cylinder pressures, a higher fuel octane must be used as well as more ignition retard.

Q: Where can I get my bottle refilled?
A: Simply call 1-800-99-REFILL, for the location of the nearest NOS dealer with refilling capabilites.

Q: Is there any performance increase in using medical grade nitrous oxide?
A: None! NOS recommend and sells only the automotive grade, called Ny-trous Plus. Ny-trous Plug contains a minimal amount of sulfur dioxide (100 ppm) as a deterrent to substance abuse. The additive does not affect performance.

Q: How long does it generally take to install an NOS kit?
A: The majority of NOS kits be installed using common hand tools in approximately 4 to 6 hours. NOS instruction manuals are by far the best in the industry; and include specific installation drawings, wiring diagrams, and bottle mounting procedures as well as performance tips and a thorough trouble shooting guide.

Q: Which type of manifold is better suited for a plate injector type of nitrous system, single or dual plane manifold?
A: As long as the manifold doesn't interfere with the spray pattern of the bars, either will work fine in most cases. The distribution is better with a single plane at high RPM. If your goal is to increase power by more than 150 HP, the single plane manifold is better.

Q: Does nitrous oxide raise cylinder pressure and termperature?
A: yes. Due to the ability to burn more fuel, this is exactly why nitrous makes so much power.

Q: Are there any benefits to chilling the nitrous bottle?
A: No. Chilling the bottle lowers the pressure dramatically and will also lower the flow reate of the nitrous causing a fuel rich condition and reducing power. On cold evenings you might run on the rich side. For optimal running conditions, keep bottle pressure at approximately 900-950 psi. NOS has a nitrous pressure gauge that allows you to monitor this. If you live or operate a nitrous system in colder temperatures, it may also be a good idea to purchase a bottle heater kit, part #14164. Generally, ambient temperatures of 80-90 degrees F will allow for best power potential of NOS kits.

Q: Are there benefits to using nitrous with turbo or super-charger applications?
A: Absolutely! In turbo applications, turbo lag is completely eliminated with the addition of a nitrous system. In addition, both turbo and superchargers compress the incoming air, thus heating it. With the injection of nitrous, a tremendous intercooling effect reduces intake charge temperatures by 75 degrees or more. Boost is usually increased as well, adding to even more power.

Q: How complete is an NOS kit?
A: NOS prides itself on offering the most complete systems on the market today. They include virtually every component that may be needed for a complete installation; parts such as extra long carburetor studs, gaskets, pipe tap, fuel hose, brackets, filters, fittings, hardware, wiring, 10 lb. bottle with Hi-Flo valve, comprehensive instruction manual, and all other major components are standard in every NOS kit.

Q: What is the difference between a standard and a NOS Hi-Flo bottle valve?
A: The orifice of the Hi-Flo valve is much larger than the standard valve allowing for a larger flow of nitrous. With a small orifice valve a pressure drop could occur when nitrous flow is high; causing surging or inadequate nitrous flow. The NOS Hi-Flo valve eliminates this problem. NOS Hi-Flo valves are standard in all NOS kits.

Q: What affect does nitrous have on an engine with considerable miles on it?
A: This depends largely on the actual condition of the engine components. Any performance modification to an engine that is worn out or poorly tuned will have detrimental effects. However, an engine in good condition, with good ring and head gasket sealing, should be able to use nitrous without any abnormal wear.

Q: Will the use of nitrous oxide affect the catalytic converter?
A: No. The increase in oxygen present in the exhaust may actually increase the efficiency of the converter. Since the use of nitrous is normally limited to 10-20 seconds of continuous use, there usually are no appreciable effects. Temperatures are typically well within acceptable standards.

Q: Will the percentage of performance increase be the same in a highly modified engine compared to a stock engine when using the same NOS kit and jetting?
A: Not really. In most cases the percentage of increase is greater from a stock engine because it is not as efficient as the modified engine in a normal non-nitrous mode. However, since the effects of nitrous oxide magnify the output of any engine, the total power output will be much higher in the modified engine.

Q: Can high compression engines utilize nitrous oxide?
A: Absolutely. High or low compression ratios can work quite suitably with nitrous oxide provided the proper balance of nitrous oxide and fuel enrichment is maintained. NOS kits are used in applications from relatively low compression stock type motors to Pro Modifieds which often exceed 15 to 1. Generally, the higher the compression ratio, the more ignition retard, as well as higher octane fuel, is required. For more specific information talk to one of our technicians.

Q: Can service station fuel be used for street/strip nitrous oxide applications?
A: Yes. Use of premium type leaded or unleaded fuel of 92, or greater, octane is recommended for most applications. Many NOS systems are designed for use with service station pump gas. However, when higher compression or higher horsepower levels are used, a racing fuel of 100 octane, or more, must be used.

Q: What type of cam is best suited for use with nitrous oxide?
A: Generally, cams that have less exhaust overlap and more exhaust duration. However, it is best to choose a cam tailored to normal use (when nitrous is not activated) since 99% of most vehicles operations is not at full throttle. There are special cam grinds available for nitrous competition which have more aggressive exhaust profile ramping, etc. Since cam selection depends largely on vehicle weight, gearing, etc., it is best to stick to cam manufacturers recommendations for your particular goal.

Q: Are NOS kits applicable to late model EFI cars?
A: Yes. In fact NOS has by far the most comprehensive selection of nitrous kits available for these cars. Call for your specific application if you do not see it listed.

Q: What type of nitrous system is better; a plate injection system or a direct port injection system?
A: The advantages of a plate system are ease of installation and removal, ability to transfer easily to another vehicle, ability to change jetting combinations quickly, and in most cases, provide you with all the extra HP you will ever need (75 to 350 more HP). In some cases, such as in-line type engines with long runners, a direct port type system is advisable for maximizing distribution. Also, where more than 350 HP is needed, our direct port Fogger systems will provide the ultimate in distribution and power (up to 500+ HP). Direct port injection is also desirable when the system is hidden under the manifold.

Q: Should I modify my fuel system to use nitrous oxide?
A: Most stock fuel pumps will work adequately for smaller nitrous applications. It is important to check to see if your pump can flow enough fuel to your existing fuel system (whether carburetor or fuel injected), as well as being able to supply the additional fuel required by the nitrous kit under full throttle conditions. It may be a good idea to dedicate a separate fuel pump to the nitrous kit.

Q: Which is the best position ot mount a nitrous bottle?
A: NOS bottle come with siphon tubes and, in order to maintain proper nitrous pick-up, it is important to mount the bottle correctly. We recommend mounting the bottle at a 15 degree angle with the valve end higher than the bottom of the bottle. The valve end of the bottle should point to the front of the vehicle and the valve **** and label should face straight up.

Q: How important is it to use nitrous and fuel filters in a kit?
A: Some of the most important components of any nitrous system are nitrous and fuel filters. To keep contaminants from attacking the solenoid or plugging up a jet, NOS nitrous filters feature a special stainless steel mesh element from the aerospace industry.

Q: What are the advantages of using nitrous compared to other performance options?
A: The cost of many other performance options can put you in the poorhouse. Dollar for dollar, you can't buy more performance with less money than nitrous. With a nitrous system, performance and reliability can be had for a much more reasonable price while still retaining the advantage of a stock engine during normal driving. And, nitrous offers tremendous gains in torque without having to rev the engine to excessive rpm's. These factors help your engine last longer than many other methods of boosting horsepower.

Q: Does NOS manufacture kits for motorcycles, water craft, or snowmobiles?
A: Absolutely. Call or e-mail NOS to obtain our special catalog devoted specifically to these applications.

Q: What kind of pressures are components subject to in a typical nitrous kit?
A: Pressures often exceed 1,000 psi. This is why NOS uses only high pressure tested aircraft quality components like stainless steel braided Teflon lines throughout its system.

Q: How do I know how much nitrous is left in the bottle?
A: The most reliable method was is to weigh the bottle to determine how many pounds remain. When a bottle is near empty (about 20% or less nitrous remaining) a surging effect is normally felt.

Q: What is the function of the blow-off safety valve on the bottle?
A: It is very important not to overfill a bottle; i.e., a 10 lb. capacity bottle should not be filled with more than 10 lbs. of nitrous oxide by weight. Overfilling and/or to much heat can cause excessive bottle pressures forcing the safety seal to blow and releasing all contents out of the bottle.

Q: Will I have to change my ignition system?
A: Most late model ignition systems are well suited for nitrous applications. In some higher HP cases, it may be advisable to look into a high quality high output ignition system.

More miscellaneous data on nitrous

FUEL INJECTION NITROUS SYSTEMS foreign or domestic applications – 50 to 250+ Extra HP

State of the Art Nitrous for Today’s High Tech Induction Systems

NOS offers a complete line of easy to install, state-of-the-art nitrous systems for cars with electronic fuel injection (EFI); and, many of them are 50 state emissions legal. Due to the technical sophistication of today’s fuel injected engines, relatively few options exist for increasing performance. However, Fuel Injection Nitrous systems offer you easy to install performance which is hard to beat. Kits are available with power increases ranging from an extra 50 HP for 4 cyl. Applications to over 250 H.P.* for 8 cyl. Applications. Adding a NOS Fuel Injection Nitrous System is one of the most cost effective ways to increase performance and they are engineered to perform with Bosch, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota; as well as other factory and aftermarket fuel injection. Since all NOS systems are designed to operate under wide-open-throttle only, the computerized sensing devices go into an open-loop mode, by-passing most computer control which allows the NOS nitrous system to work in perfect harmony with the fuel injection. The result is a huge power increase with easy installation and no engine modifications. Some NOS Fuel Injection Nitrous Systems feature NOS’ exclusive "dry manifold technology". These systems offer superior power and more precise distribution than competing systems by using the engine’s own EFI to add the extra fuel necessary when nitrous flows.

In these applications, the fuel injection system is designed to only carry air through the induction system until it reaches the port induction nozzles for fuel. Injecting the extra fuel necessary when nitrous flows at the beginning of the induction tract instead of at the factory nozzles can cause fuel puddling, air/fuel ratio, and mixture distribution problems. So NOS came up with a way to increase fuel flow through the factory injection nozzles and allow just the gaseous nitrous to be introduced at the beginning of the intake tract. This eliminates uneven distribution and potentially volatile conditions caused by fuel puddling in the manifold. When it comes to making safe, reliable, and emissions legal horsepower, no other equipment can compare to the street legal nitrous kits from NOS. NOS Fuel Injection Nitrous Systems come complete with a 10 lb. capacity nitrous bottle, solenoids, nozzle(s), filters, fittings, jets (where applicable), switches, aircraft quality steel braided hose, and all other necessary hardware for a complete installation.

System Requirements

Most NOS systems for fuel injected engines are designed to work without modification to the stock factory components. Some factory fuel delivery systems may be marginal for performance use. Make sure that your stock components can maintain effective fuel pressure, especially if you have made other performance modifications. Those kits which raise engine power by 40 to 50%, or more, may require additional modifications due to the high cylinder pressures generated. Make sure that your fuel pump is able to supply a flow rate of 0.1 gallons per hour per horsepower at system pressure. For example, an engine that makes 250 HP when the Super Powershot System is activated will require a fuel pump that flows at least 25 gallons per hour at full pressure. We recommend forged pistons and rods. You may want to use a high quality performance ignition system, since many standard ignition systems experience misfire at high cylinder pressures and/or high RPM.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

kabooski - Good post on NOS. I already know about NOS. It's not for me. It would probably blow up my engine. That is the last thing I want.

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

This post is for the moderators. Please don’t close this thread down. There have been almost 1000 views so that tells me there is at least a handful of people that are interested in what is going on. I don’t mind being ripped. Does not bother me in the least. Hopefully there will be a constructive end to it. I think this has been a good debate. Let it continue. I can't wait to see a fair dyno chart. Hopefully one will be forthcoming.

Just because Welsh is not interested in participating anymore, that's fine. I guess if I was getting threatening e-mails maybe I'd opt to not participate. But I doubt it. That's his problem. I for one can handle the abuse.

Ken

kabooski

well The DR propane system is exacly the same application

NOS is used for over 50 years
with great success
If you car is tuned right it will not blow up from a
50-75-100 shot of NOS

It is a part-time system

But you from all your post have made it very clear
you are wanting a full time system
That sir gets into the Alternative/Hybrid Fuel sources
Something for which the DR kit is not designed for

It is NOT for you
It is made for short burst of increased Power
to get you thru the 1/4 mile faster
That is it
It wil not increase your MPG
It will not lower your emissions
It will not Increase your engines life span.. But actually
decrease it!

That is something Drag Racers Like myself
are willing to sacrifice

are you?

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

kabooski

I already asked Welsh if I could have a switch to turn it on and off. I did not want a full time system. You must have missed that in one of my posts. His answer to me was too technical, but the gist of it was the ecu would learn the fuel system and when it learned about the propane it would run okay and then when the propane ran out or was turned off the ecu would run very rich. He felt this was not a good idea.

Maybe he is right and maybe he isn't, I don't know. I will say that if I can run it full time and only use 5% propane I will not have to fill a 6 gallon tank that often, which is good. It would be nice to get all the benefits of propane full time.

For me I have most of the benefits with the methanol/water injection.

I just need to see proof of a significant power improvement with a fair unbiased dyno chart at the same boost level.

I'm sure there are others that are not running methal/water injection and they would benefit from the advantages of propane. If you flunk emissions and this solves it, that alone might make it worth getting. I don't need to worry about emissions.

If you want to push and buy the DR product that is fine with me. In my conversation with Welsh he made it clear that it is very dangerous for the engine as well as my life to run a system that does not meet government saftey standards. If there is another kit for a gasoline engine that meets government standards and gives me a significant power gain, I'll consider it. I'm not going to take a chance on destroying my engine or me.

It's obvious that Welsh probably does not like me. He has not communicated to me in over ten days.

He is 85 miles from KD Rotary where my car is. I told him to go there and dyno his Corvette with and without propane. He apparently was not interested. That kind of tells me that either the performance gains are not there or he has too much business to waste his time. With 20,000 kits installed with satisfied customers maybe it is not worth his time to prove it to me. I think he is wrong but that is his choice.

Ken

kabooski

that is because welsh is not marketing his system
as a racing one

He is after goverment grants in the area of
alternative fuel sources and hybrid fuel systems
something you share

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

something you share

Please show me one post that I care about alternative fuel sources. My posts were from Welsh's info packet. I was just sharing what I promised to the forum. I have said over and over I just care about performance improvements. I said over and over that I could care less about emissions. We are actually on the same side and you don't seem to see that. You just keep ripping me. Why?

Ken

kabooski

"I will say that if I can run it full time and only use 5% propane I will not have to fill a 6 gallon tank that often, which is good. It would be nice to get all the benefits of propane full time.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Are you saying that is bad? Why is that bad? Why won't a sane person want the best for his car. I do. Just show me the proof.

Ken

rx7tt95

Kabooski, are you an MRCCF member by any chance? What do you run? Obviously you're into drag racing, as I am, along with road race, autocross, and general street intimidation, LOL. Propane is nothing like nitrous. Nitrous, as your previous post states, is an oxidizer while propane is an actual fuel. I've run nitrous on various cars and bikes since I was 16 years old. I know a thing or two about it. What was appealing to me was the lowering of AIT's by using a fuel which at the same time increases the effective octane rating. Nitrous does the AIT part, but not the octane. Propane can act as a fuel buffer in addition, but neither you nor I truly know everything that's necessary to make an educated decision. Bottom line. Heck, I could post to the forum that lime juice dropped my ET's by 6 tenths. That's not proof. Ekool gave us a few links to look at which is a good start. One person stating something doesn't make anything fact. Even in the scientific community, other scientists try to validate a claim by duplication with the end goal being repeatable results. We have none from any forum member other than Ekool. That's it. I don't see you, Kabooski, doing anything other than waiting for someone else to test the product. By your own non-actions, you're just as much of an arm-chair theorist as I am and you certainly don't have the right to tell me how I go about developing my car when a) you don't know a thing about me or who I am or b)anything about my car's performance or what I've done to get it there. EVERYTHING starts out as a theory. All I'm asking is to just provide helpful info instead of calling Ken an Eco ****. All Ken ever did was quote Welsh. If Ekool or Kabooski misread or took it for anything other than that, then that's their fault, not Ken's.

As it being only for drag racing, why is that? Nitrous is not appropriate for long-term usage. As an oxidizer, it will actually increase your cylinder pressure (ok, combustion chamber pressure) and raise your EGT's. Not good for long term usage. Propane, on the other hand, does just the opposite. It'd be perfect for road race if say you could trigger it every time you hit above 7psi or so. If what DR says is true, it might be the "magic" we've been looking for to make our engines last under sustained, high speed boost on a road course, no? When Ken referred to top speed and you so "eloquently" typed in large caps "TOP SPEED"????? , perhaps you should have gone back and actually read the post to see that he was referring to TRAP SPEED at the end of the 1/4 mile.

Kabooski, ever hear of those "tornado" thingy's you stick in your air intake tract? I've read that they give big gains in hp and mileage. Heck, they even advertise in the back of national magazines. Their claims must be true, right? Maybe you should purchase one and get back to the forum with some results :-)

Lastly, who cares if Ken is interested in full-time usage versus just your desire to use it for nothing but drag racing. It's Ken's F*CKING car for Christ's sake. Not yours. It's pretty damn bold to suggest that he or anyone else who doesn't share your intended goals not use it, not do research, and just leave it to you. Just ignorant really. What happened with the whole DR/Welsh conflict was unfortunate, unseen and probably unavoidable. Just use some logic here and realize that the answer to all of our problems with this thread ride on quantitative results from more than one person. Yes, there are two RX7 guys that purchased kits and are planning on testing them. Great. I want to see the results just like I'm sure many, many others do, including you Kabooski. I just hate having to come into a thread like this to defend logic and common sense, not to mention people who don't deserve to get ripped.

Kabooski, I'm really not trying to be inflammatory. I'm in Florida. You're in Florida. We probably belong to the same damn club. I really feel that you don't understand where Ken was coming from. He wasn't coming from anywhere. He had no priority. As worst, he's guilty of getting info from only one source. And both parties are guilty of that. So with that said, next event, beers are on me and we'll talk rationally about this and I'm sure many other issues. Remember, we all love rotaries, no?

kabooski

From the DR application it is 100% the same
It is used for the 'same' reason same application
Just a diffrent tank

I just cannot believe you people can not get it thru your heads.

I would like to see you Mike go to a sanctioned Road Racing Event with a NOS or Propane Injection system
you would get kicked out so fast it would not be funny

Ok Let me s l o w ly s t a t e
again

The DR kit which has the original topic
and BTW Ken went out and contacted a competitor
gave them DR's info and had them threaten with a law suit

was intended ONLY FOR DRAG RACING
Just as MUCH as NOS is!

I do not go and get involved with Road Racing Topics
and you slow *** road racers should not butt in
on topics that do not concern or benefit you... PERIOD!

again IF YOU ARE NOT A DRAG RACER
which means
A) you go to saturday night illegal drag races
B)race your car in a 1/8 or 1/4 track

NOS
Propane "injection" both of which where developed
for temporary use
To decrease that time it takes to reach the 1/8 or 1/4 Mile

It is NOT to save you $ on GAS
It is not for you to help save your badly built engines
It is not design so you can inject propane
right before you go to a emissions test
to pass it

It is ONLY! to help you in a Drag Racing Event!

I will wait till call 911 and others report back
on this Drag Racing product
and there views of it
Before I make a purchasing decision

I will not go out and research and
say "hey I found that propane can be used instead of gasoline"
and it has all this wonderful side effects etc etc etc

I don't give a rat's *** of what propane beneficial effects
on combustion engines provide

I only care if gets the car down the track any faster
with out having to add more fuel like with a wet NOS system

The SAME purpose the "original" poster of propane injection had in mind

Ken has no right to take someone elses
Thread and turn it into something that it's original
poster had no intention..

rx7tt95

Ok, I sorted through 20+ pages of posts in the first link Ekool gave. I've listed a quote from the 3000GT list below. Also of note, I read that various Vipers have been running with a nitrous/propane combination, specifically BTR Vipers. The link to the page is btrviper.com. They sell a kit so maybe a call to these guys may shed some light. I would have liked to see someone OTHER than DR using propane much sooner...I think it would have alleviated much of the confusion regarding propane's usage for performance apps.

Some questions I still have...there seems to be issues of using propane with BOV's vented to atmosphere. As in propane is being released in gaseous form in the engine compartment. Strong enough to smell. Is this a safety issue? I dunno. If you have the stock twins with the stock BOV's, it's apparently not an issue.

The biggest gains seem to be if you tune FOR propane. When it runs out, you loose that gain. I still don't see any actual data that propane in itself, will yield a boost in hp at the SAME boost setting. Seems like it would, but the increase in a/f ratio may kill any gains by lowering IAT's. You'll apparently be able to run more boost on pump gas, like you would with water/alcohol, but with the added benefit of the lower AIT's. Stragely, most of the guys on the 3000 forum seem to run 17psi or so on pump, with the general consensus being 15psi on pump with the RX7. Strange. Apparently Ekool is able to run 20psi+ on pump gas. Correct me if I'm wrong here Ekool.
Here is a link that goes into detail about different fuels-methanol-gas-propane.

There's also the gas vs. liquid propane injection debate. Some feel there are BIGGER gains to the use of liquid by turning the bottle upside down. That contradicts Welsh's statements about liquid LPG. The "theory" is that a purge would be needed with the gaseous system as the lpg (propane) in the lines would turn to gas after the first "hit" of propane and would not provide drops in AIT's with later "hits" of propane. The analogy of canned air was used. Spray the canned air. It's cold. Turn it upside down so it comes out in liquid form. It's REALLY cold. Problem is, it may be TOO much and the car would run excessively rich.

Here's a link and quote from the 3000gt forum, but remember, this is for a DIFFERENT usage of lpg in engines, non performance. It's detailed stuff and good reading however.

http://www.wps.com/LPG/LPG-book-final.html
From the "other list:
"Now I know, this is a page about converting a vehicle to propane, not spraying some in a gas vehicle. But there is a lot of info.

It is VERY long and detailed but here are some excerpts:

LPG experts will tell you two things you will need to make it all work -- a good ignition system and a good cooling system. And they're absolutely right. LPG requires a good hot spark, and an ignition marginally OK for gasoline will run terribly on LPG. I had a classic textbook example of this happen to me; read about it in the PROBLEMS section.

You need a good cooling system, not because the engine runs any hotter, but because the LPG regulator/converter uses engine coolant to provide the heat to convert the liquid LPG to a gas. (Even ``cold'' water works -- it just has to keep it above freezing.)

An LPG conversion does not require any special modifications to the engine. Since LPG has fewer BTU's per pound than gasoline, and the engine is designed to take in a fixed volume of fuel/air mixture, you'll get about 10% less horsepower for a given engine, at full-throttle. To help compensate, LPG has an octane equivalent of about 110 -- meaning you can advance the ignition timing a lot. The actual loss depends on the specific engine, but it will probably not be noticeable.

The last item to improve is to use hard exhaust valves and valve seats, such as Stellite. Hard valves were not available for my engine, alas, though I was able to get hard valve seats. The ignition temperature of LPG is somewhat higher."

Hope this brings the discussion back to where it should be, to validating LPG's usage as a performance-enhancement product suitable for the rotary engine. I encourage others interested to do a bit of searching on the internet and post findings here as well.
Michel

Call 911

I will be testing out the kit and I will let everybody know how it goes. I would of already had it if Welsh didn't threaten to sue DR.

Luv94rx7

I cant stress this enough!
This is not some magic kit that is going to give you instant HP.
All it does is provide with a condition in which the engine is capable of making more HP safely at a higher level of boost. Or it could just be used as a safe guard if you so wished.
It is like your methanol/water injection. However it also has a couple extra benefits which your meth/water kit does not provide like, overall octane increase, much colder intake temps, and fuel. If you are happy with your water injection then this may not be for you. From your posts it seems you are wanting an instant HP gain. Propane alone is not going to give you what you are looking for.

Kabooski

I have to disagree with it being a drag only setup. My car is daily driven and I plan on using it on the street as well as drag racing. Yes it may not intended for the street use but I dont care. Im not a big drag racer, however I have a goal and I plan on using it to help me reach my goal, and once I reach it Im done with drag racing.
Im more interested in running 20-22psi everyday off a T-78 on the street and putting a huge *** whipping on anybody who challenges me. And I feel this is my ticket.

rx7tt95

I think Ken and anyone else has every right to post information they've found on an unproven kit. Again, you're wrong about road race. Who ever said anything about sanctioned events? Ever read the rules? How about simple track events such as Performance Driver's Club (here in Florida) or a POC event? Your priorities are not that of the greater list, necessarily. I WANT propane injection to work as advertised. Ken did not go out and say, "go sue DR for stealing your idea." Welsh did that on it's own. That's the distinction YOU need to realize. You also need to realize that if propane works as stated, then there are gains to be had in ALL forms of racing. And since when is roadracing slow? I'm willing to bet that you're not running 140+ in the 1/4 mile. I'm willing to bet you're not topping out at 150mph TWICE every time down the track. The more you post, the more ignorant I see you are. Get over yourself. Get some REAL information or just shut the hell up and leave the fact finding to the objective. I'd encourage you to filter through all the posts in Ekool's links too. You're basically wrong in your assumptions about it being used only for 1/4 mile. People are even talking about using it as a replacement for running larger injectors. Even Ekool admits to a bit of top speed stuff. Stop whining and do some actual research yourself. Geez.
Michel

rx7tt95

Kabooski,
You're running a n/a GXL by the looks of your profile. How much drag racing do you do in that? Ekool's been advertising the LPG kit for forced induction apps (at least the benefits).

Ken also started a new thread. It was his thread about his findings. Yes, something was mentioned on the original posting, but it's since been switched. I see the only "****" being you, Kabooski.

Also, I think there was only one other 3000 forum member that was running the kit as of the last post (correct me if I'm wrong Ekool) with no quantifiable results. I may have just missed it as I got tired wading through the countless unrelated posts. Good to see that happens on other forums besides our own! :-)
Michel

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

IN MY RESEARCH OF METHANOL/WATER INJECTION THERE WAS AN ARTICLE ON THE AQUAMIST SITE THAT STATED THAT INJECTING 10-20% METHANOL WITH THE WATER YOU GET A 2-3 OCTANE POINT INCREASE. YOU ARE CORRECT THAT MAYBE PROPANE IS NOT FOR ME. YES, I DO EXPECT A SIGNIFICANT POWER GAIN AT THE SAME BOOST LEVEL WITH PROPANE. IF IT IS NOT THERE THEN I'M NOT INTERESTED.

HERE IS MY CURRENT CONFIGURATION. I WOULD LIKE KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE TO PICK IT APART. DAVE AT KDR HAS THE CAR AND HE SAYS MY CAR WILL BE BULLIT PROOF AND A VERY HIGH PERFORMING STREETABLE CAR.
WHAT DO YOU THINK? DAVE THINKS IT WILL BE GOOD FOR ABOUT 400RWHP AT 15PSI WITH A NICE POWER CURVE.

Ken, 58 years young
'94 white, base, pep, red leather,
mods: street port & polished stage II, 3mm Hurley racing seals, upgraded coolant seals,
AEM ECU(If they can ever deliver),
XS T04e single turbo kit,
SMIC (400+cu.in.),
Aquamist 2s water injection kit,
Pettit ss resonated MP,
Pettit ss cat-back,
RP Racing fuel pump,
1600cc injectors,
Profec B(15&20+psi),
3-bar Map Sensor,
Centerforce clutch,
under pulley kit(no air pump),
Pettit short shifter kit,
boost gauge,
LaBreck's bushings,
Evans Coolant
<http://nopistons.com/luv94rx7.html>

kabooski

I think you wont need any other power adders
with that set-up

That's plenty

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

This was e-mailed to me by a member of the "Big List".

"Ken,

sorry to hear that you are giving up for know. I saw a lot of idiotic posts on the list not to mention the threats, what are people thinking. Seems like everyone is an expert on how fuel vapors react in a cylinder. I am still looking at putting one of welshes units on my non turbo 13b. I will let you know if I do and what gains and benefits I see. As far as any other units out there for gasoline engines I have not seen any other manufacturers. Make sure your brother looks at all of the units available out there for his pickup. Some of the inexpensive units don't have any manual shut off switches inside the pickup and are turned on and off with the ignition. These types of units are potentially dangerous. Good luck"

Here's another one.

"Put me down as 'supporting'. I just don't have strong enough opinions to engage in the flame wars or enough knowledge to contribute anything constructive. Failing in my first two options-of-choice, I've elected to lurk.

Hats off to anyone who contributes to the general body of useful information. I expect there's a silent majority who appreciate the effort."

Ken

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

rx7tt95 - "Some questions I still have...there seems to be issues of using propane with BOV's vented to atmosphere. As in propane is being released in gaseous form in the engine compartment. Strong enough to smell. Is this a safety issue? I dunno. If you have the stock twins with the stock BOV's, it's apparently not an issue."

Isn't this a dangereous saftey issue? Doesn't sound good to me. I'd hate to see an engine fire or someone getting hurt.

My XS T04e single turbo kit has a HKS Standard Wastegate and a A’PEXi Twin Chamber BOV.

Ken