Pineapple Racing HD Water Seal Kit
04-16-07, 09:54 PM
#4
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: trinidad and tobago
Posts: 2,715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So are their statements about the seals true...........
"This is our exclusive Heavy Duty Water Seal kit. We tested these seals for over 7 years in numerous street and track cars before offering them to our customers. They have proven to be a significant upgrade over the stock water seals. We use them in all our 5-year warranty motors. Also, these seals are re-usable if you need to reopen the motor to freshen it, as long as the mileage is not too high or the engine too overheated. In other words, if you make a mistake and blow up your engine or perhaps improperly clearance the seals or whatever, these seals can be removed, allowed to "rest" for about 30 minutes and be reused when you put the engine back together. Stock water seals must be disposed of when freshening an engine, even with just a couple heat cycles. Kit includes the water jacket o-rings, front cover o-ring (and backup washer, if needed), dowel o-rings, rear stationary gear o-ring and oil pedistal o-rings. "
"This is our exclusive Heavy Duty Water Seal kit. We tested these seals for over 7 years in numerous street and track cars before offering them to our customers. They have proven to be a significant upgrade over the stock water seals. We use them in all our 5-year warranty motors. Also, these seals are re-usable if you need to reopen the motor to freshen it, as long as the mileage is not too high or the engine too overheated. In other words, if you make a mistake and blow up your engine or perhaps improperly clearance the seals or whatever, these seals can be removed, allowed to "rest" for about 30 minutes and be reused when you put the engine back together. Stock water seals must be disposed of when freshening an engine, even with just a couple heat cycles. Kit includes the water jacket o-rings, front cover o-ring (and backup washer, if needed), dowel o-rings, rear stationary gear o-ring and oil pedistal o-rings. "
04-17-07, 10:36 AM
#5
I have reused the combustion and water o-ring with the HD kit, both rebuilds were low mileage. when I removed them the last time they still looked round and useable. My motor has stayed cool, I blew it tuning on it, and the other time I over tightening the oil feed on the front housing for the turbo, cracked the front housing. A-spec sent me the wrong fitting with my turbo kit!!
So yea I would say its true.
About to get the parts to put my motor back together so I will let you know if it holds.
So yea I would say its true.
About to get the parts to put my motor back together so I will let you know if it holds.
04-19-07, 12:56 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Richland Wa.
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
04-19-07, 02:09 PM
#7
Originally Posted by Bad2ndgen
Trending Topics
09-06-08, 08:02 AM
#8
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Australia mate
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recently tried these seals and was very dissapointed in them.
Five out of eight of the o-ring joins were poorly glued together and snapped with a gentle stretch. Here is a picture of one of the joins.
http://www.rotarygarage.com/pthumbs/...ter%20seal.jpg
After waiting for over three weeks for these seals I was furious. Unfortuneatly I needed the car so I had to superglue the seals together. Pinapple have made no attempt to explain or apologise.
I would stay away from using these seals or at very least check every join very carefully. I have just spent $230 on these seals and have no confidence in them and will probably have to pull the motor out soon and replace them with proper seals which will cost me more money again. I might as well spend half that or less and buy 2.2mm and 2mm viton cord if I was just going to glue them together.
Buyer beware!
Five out of eight of the o-ring joins were poorly glued together and snapped with a gentle stretch. Here is a picture of one of the joins.
http://www.rotarygarage.com/pthumbs/...ter%20seal.jpg
After waiting for over three weeks for these seals I was furious. Unfortuneatly I needed the car so I had to superglue the seals together. Pinapple have made no attempt to explain or apologise.
I would stay away from using these seals or at very least check every join very carefully. I have just spent $230 on these seals and have no confidence in them and will probably have to pull the motor out soon and replace them with proper seals which will cost me more money again. I might as well spend half that or less and buy 2.2mm and 2mm viton cord if I was just going to glue them together.
Buyer beware!
09-06-08, 12:41 PM
#9
Old [Sch|F]ool
I use standard 18 gauge electrical wire (yellow, because yellow is faster) with a smearing of Right Stuff silicone. Haven't had a problem yet in two engines. A $10 roll is enough for almost two builds.
The first engine damaged the rotor housings because the wire I used was slightly too thick (must be about .091" diameter, the stuff I'd used was about .095") and it crushed the rotor housings where the (unsupported) P-port holes were. So when I rebuilt it, I just used the correct size wire and used only sealant in the intake port area. Haven't torn that engine back down but it was still holding coolant despite horrible full power misfiring. Current engine has 3k on it so far, regularly sees 9000rpm, as well as ~230deg coolant temps
The first engine damaged the rotor housings because the wire I used was slightly too thick (must be about .091" diameter, the stuff I'd used was about .095") and it crushed the rotor housings where the (unsupported) P-port holes were. So when I rebuilt it, I just used the correct size wire and used only sealant in the intake port area. Haven't torn that engine back down but it was still holding coolant despite horrible full power misfiring. Current engine has 3k on it so far, regularly sees 9000rpm, as well as ~230deg coolant temps
09-06-08, 03:30 PM
#10
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
I use standard 18 gauge electrical wire (yellow, because yellow is faster) with a smearing of Right Stuff silicone. Haven't had a problem yet in two engines. A $10 roll is enough for almost two builds.
The first engine damaged the rotor housings because the wire I used was slightly too thick (must be about .091" diameter, the stuff I'd used was about .095") and it crushed the rotor housings where the (unsupported) P-port holes were. So when I rebuilt it, I just used the correct size wire and used only sealant in the intake port area. Haven't torn that engine back down but it was still holding coolant despite horrible full power misfiring. Current engine has 3k on it so far, regularly sees 9000rpm, as well as ~230deg coolant temps
The first engine damaged the rotor housings because the wire I used was slightly too thick (must be about .091" diameter, the stuff I'd used was about .095") and it crushed the rotor housings where the (unsupported) P-port holes were. So when I rebuilt it, I just used the correct size wire and used only sealant in the intake port area. Haven't torn that engine back down but it was still holding coolant despite horrible full power misfiring. Current engine has 3k on it so far, regularly sees 9000rpm, as well as ~230deg coolant temps
09-06-08, 06:25 PM
#11
Old [Sch|F]ool
No, the insulation is what makes it work. It's like a copper cored rubber seal. The seal doesn't need to butt ends, I leave about a 1/2" gap, the inner seal has the gap at the intake port and the outer seal has the gap at the top of the housings.
I want to try building an engine with no coolant seals at all just to see how well Right Stuff works. One time, I put some on the O-rings for the oil filter pedestal, and since it doesn't have any internal land, it pushed the O-ring into the passage. Didn't leak a drop of oil. The label says "not for use on head gaskets" though...
I want to try building an engine with no coolant seals at all just to see how well Right Stuff works. One time, I put some on the O-rings for the oil filter pedestal, and since it doesn't have any internal land, it pushed the O-ring into the passage. Didn't leak a drop of oil. The label says "not for use on head gaskets" though...
09-08-08, 05:40 PM
#13
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
No, the insulation is what makes it work. It's like a copper cored rubber seal. The seal doesn't need to butt ends, I leave about a 1/2" gap, the inner seal has the gap at the intake port and the outer seal has the gap at the top of the housings.
I want to try building an engine with no coolant seals at all just to see how well Right Stuff works. One time, I put some on the O-rings for the oil filter pedestal, and since it doesn't have any internal land, it pushed the O-ring into the passage. Didn't leak a drop of oil. The label says "not for use on head gaskets" though...
I want to try building an engine with no coolant seals at all just to see how well Right Stuff works. One time, I put some on the O-rings for the oil filter pedestal, and since it doesn't have any internal land, it pushed the O-ring into the passage. Didn't leak a drop of oil. The label says "not for use on head gaskets" though...
It' common for the fire ring in head gaskets for piston engines to be copper.
09-15-08, 09:39 PM
#15
Full Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: los angeles
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thats awesome, i thought he was joking when he said he used electrical wire. i was looking for a water seal alternative, i was thinking mcmaster, but maybe ill try the electrical wire
09-17-08, 09:06 PM
#17
talking head
here is my cut and paste on the subject asked elsewheres
they don't take up much room
and i live 70 km away from a decent shop that can deal me O rings at a decent price
these have fixed a couple of washing machines, a vacuum cleaner and some sprinklers
and a few tap fittings
as well a motor and serviced a few sets of injectors
-- it doesn't even look like i pulled any out of the boxes yet
sure enough the dowel O rings and timing cover O rings sizes
might get used up in the next 5 years
- i will have got my moneys worth in LPG and hassle
yup
the 2.5 gives more height, and fills the wider inner groove better
also higher than the mazda seal
- less that perfect housings or flats are probably going to benefit
when they would likely be useless as is with mazda water seals
( in your shoes still fix the corrosion with devcon and file for support )
and i see no reason why even the cheaper nitrile used in water role would not work
( the viton feels more self lubed, and is more flexible when dense )
i have head people doing just silicon join instead of the super glue
- and the super glue will struggle to work alone
be sparing, and use the baking soda to generate some instant heat
- my joins exceed a bounce test the stock mazda inner does not
when sizing it up
i found the 2mm in the wider groove was still as proud as the mazda seal
and could be made to overlap join, not just butt up
but i settled on the 2.5 there
cause i wanted to be driving and not hanging about having everything faced
- and seams fine to me so far
if your doing your own labour
and the stuff won't work, or work long with mazda seals
why blow all that cost ?
if its a weekend thrasher, all the better
which jogs me to this
here you go -
transeals
08 94516011 ( WA )
inner and outer oil seals , not mazda
( and i haven't trialled them personally yet )
VITON 75 O'ring 4.737 x 0.103'' PART No 158v7 at $4.99each
VITON 75 O'ring 110.0 x 3.0mm part No 110X3v7 at $8.21each
note one is imperial sized as there is no metric equivalent
- its this one that apparently proves tricky and tight to install
2.5 mm for the wider inner track
butt face the ends
dab isocyanate glue on ends, dab in slightest amount of baking soda
join and hold a few moments, blow it cool
( its the heat generated that you want to vulcanise the join )
hold ya breath !
- use a very good quality silicon to buttress the join point
and all around if you wish, it doesn't hurt , be sparing
- if the wet silicone hydraulics a little under compression on tension it will hold the shape
and protect the viton when set
a bit like mazda's two material principle for the inner
( its going to dry as a square section with round viton inner )
- but slow crank when done by hand to clean up inside if you went too nuts
i use dow corning 736, it appears identical to the mazda orange seal material
I am nearly 10 000 km in with no issues so far with my 2.0 and 2.5 combo
its my risk, its my labour, so far i am happy
if its goes 50 000 , i will be happy
because by then i am wanting to check my apex seal wear with LPG anyways
2.0 for the outer
it appears the 2.5 would actually be suitable all around
but the two size combo seams fine so far
i also was sick to death of the huge sting that the water seals represented
- and i reckon only once in 10 did i actually get a faultless set of mazda water seals for my money
- always one stuffed out on the join, before i have even received them
i steered away from shops due to bad experiences with "opened " kits with all **** inner seals
:x i know when i just bought all the shop rejects
they are not always green, mazda changed the colour back and forwards
i haven't done it myself yet
i have always coughed out for mazda ones
as for viton, some US aftermarket mobs ( i am thinking its RA and maybe pineapple )
have been using Viton for water seal kits
and also substitute oil control O rings for years
the mazda oil control ones are a combination of a few rubbers,
flourosilicon coated nitrile i think
( don't quote but something fancy )
but i believe the rx8 ones are viton which in most respects is the most resistant of all the rubbers
next time i am doing a hot lap service quick change of water and oil seals on the track
i am gonna hold my breath
PS
25 000 km in, still AOK, no water leaks, motor comp A1, LPG fuel 100%
Originally Posted by bumpstart
they don't take up much room
and i live 70 km away from a decent shop that can deal me O rings at a decent price
these have fixed a couple of washing machines, a vacuum cleaner and some sprinklers
and a few tap fittings
as well a motor and serviced a few sets of injectors
-- it doesn't even look like i pulled any out of the boxes yet
sure enough the dowel O rings and timing cover O rings sizes
might get used up in the next 5 years
- i will have got my moneys worth in LPG and hassle
Originally Posted by bumpstart
as long as the substitutes you use are viton or nitrile ( in some cases )
then you are using two rubber compounds that are very resistant to oil and most fuels
and are also more stable than most with temperature
- nitrile and viton both have an Achilles heal
viton is not as stable as liked in presence of aromatic based solvents ( specifically ketones )
nitrile is not as stable in heat as viton , and doesn't like ester acids
and when formulated to be resistant, can loose its flexibility
( at any rate the two remain the better of the resistant rubbers )
the other O rings used by mazda throughout the motor appear conventional butyl nitrile
of which the viton could actually be considered a superior upgrade
( though most O rings sold in kits are likely nitrile )
viton is , by definition , a flouro- rubber
O-rings made of viton are typically color coded as black
its 200 c stable
and proves to be more flexible than nitrile when specifically formulated to be heavily solvent resistant
mazda choose to flourosilicon coat on the early green type oil control ring
( the simple cheaper black one appears nitrile, but may be possibly be viton , but is not coated )
mazda have used the flourosilicon coat onto the nitrile
to provide a protection for the rubber for its known weakness
the reasons for that
viton likely was not invented when mazda first settled with nitrile
( the rx8 type is likely viton )
mazda also construct the inner water seal as two composites
( a stringer that overlaps, and a coating )
of which the orange part appears to be high temp silicon
( and when the dow 736 sets to a sample, you cannot distinguish it )
- while again the outer O ring appears simple square section nitrile
( but would not surprise me if its cheaper, lesser neoprene )
- silicone itself is never used singularly as it does not have the strength of the other two
which is why i mimic same by using the dow 736 silicone
it is sensor safe, and safe to 260 degrees centigrade
- and it will hide the inner O ring from any nasty solvent it specifically cannot handle
PS
for water seal compromised J or monster port's
using off the roll viton or nitrile inner and outer water seals
must be better than cutting up mazda ones
then you are using two rubber compounds that are very resistant to oil and most fuels
and are also more stable than most with temperature
- nitrile and viton both have an Achilles heal
viton is not as stable as liked in presence of aromatic based solvents ( specifically ketones )
nitrile is not as stable in heat as viton , and doesn't like ester acids
and when formulated to be resistant, can loose its flexibility
( at any rate the two remain the better of the resistant rubbers )
the other O rings used by mazda throughout the motor appear conventional butyl nitrile
of which the viton could actually be considered a superior upgrade
( though most O rings sold in kits are likely nitrile )
viton is , by definition , a flouro- rubber
O-rings made of viton are typically color coded as black
its 200 c stable
and proves to be more flexible than nitrile when specifically formulated to be heavily solvent resistant
mazda choose to flourosilicon coat on the early green type oil control ring
( the simple cheaper black one appears nitrile, but may be possibly be viton , but is not coated )
mazda have used the flourosilicon coat onto the nitrile
to provide a protection for the rubber for its known weakness
the reasons for that
viton likely was not invented when mazda first settled with nitrile
( the rx8 type is likely viton )
mazda also construct the inner water seal as two composites
( a stringer that overlaps, and a coating )
of which the orange part appears to be high temp silicon
( and when the dow 736 sets to a sample, you cannot distinguish it )
- while again the outer O ring appears simple square section nitrile
( but would not surprise me if its cheaper, lesser neoprene )
- silicone itself is never used singularly as it does not have the strength of the other two
which is why i mimic same by using the dow 736 silicone
it is sensor safe, and safe to 260 degrees centigrade
- and it will hide the inner O ring from any nasty solvent it specifically cannot handle
PS
for water seal compromised J or monster port's
using off the roll viton or nitrile inner and outer water seals
must be better than cutting up mazda ones
Originally Posted by bumpstart
Originally Posted by Rota_Motor
so what we're talking bunmp, is to use 2 or 2.5mm viton joined with isocyanate (superglue) and baking soda, then held in place in the grooves with a good quality high temp silicone sealant??
and then slowly turn by hand before cranking to ensure any excess that may possibly squeeze into the chambers is wiped away without damage??
I may try this with some PP 13B housings I have with some corrosion problems in the water seal area, silicone sealant should be easier than trying to fill and reshape the grooves for stock seals. and if it doesnt work, nothing lost apart from a few dollars worth of viton and silicone, and a few hours of my time.
and then slowly turn by hand before cranking to ensure any excess that may possibly squeeze into the chambers is wiped away without damage??
I may try this with some PP 13B housings I have with some corrosion problems in the water seal area, silicone sealant should be easier than trying to fill and reshape the grooves for stock seals. and if it doesnt work, nothing lost apart from a few dollars worth of viton and silicone, and a few hours of my time.
the 2.5 gives more height, and fills the wider inner groove better
also higher than the mazda seal
- less that perfect housings or flats are probably going to benefit
when they would likely be useless as is with mazda water seals
( in your shoes still fix the corrosion with devcon and file for support )
and i see no reason why even the cheaper nitrile used in water role would not work
( the viton feels more self lubed, and is more flexible when dense )
i have head people doing just silicon join instead of the super glue
- and the super glue will struggle to work alone
be sparing, and use the baking soda to generate some instant heat
- my joins exceed a bounce test the stock mazda inner does not
when sizing it up
i found the 2mm in the wider groove was still as proud as the mazda seal
and could be made to overlap join, not just butt up
but i settled on the 2.5 there
cause i wanted to be driving and not hanging about having everything faced
- and seams fine to me so far
if your doing your own labour
and the stuff won't work, or work long with mazda seals
why blow all that cost ?
if its a weekend thrasher, all the better
Can anyone tell me the exact sizes or part numbers for oil control o-rings?
here you go -
transeals
08 94516011 ( WA )
inner and outer oil seals , not mazda
( and i haven't trialled them personally yet )
VITON 75 O'ring 4.737 x 0.103'' PART No 158v7 at $4.99each
VITON 75 O'ring 110.0 x 3.0mm part No 110X3v7 at $8.21each
note one is imperial sized as there is no metric equivalent
- its this one that apparently proves tricky and tight to install
2.5 mm for the wider inner track
butt face the ends
dab isocyanate glue on ends, dab in slightest amount of baking soda
join and hold a few moments, blow it cool
( its the heat generated that you want to vulcanise the join )
hold ya breath !
- use a very good quality silicon to buttress the join point
and all around if you wish, it doesn't hurt , be sparing
- if the wet silicone hydraulics a little under compression on tension it will hold the shape
and protect the viton when set
a bit like mazda's two material principle for the inner
( its going to dry as a square section with round viton inner )
- but slow crank when done by hand to clean up inside if you went too nuts
i use dow corning 736, it appears identical to the mazda orange seal material
I am nearly 10 000 km in with no issues so far with my 2.0 and 2.5 combo
its my risk, its my labour, so far i am happy
if its goes 50 000 , i will be happy
because by then i am wanting to check my apex seal wear with LPG anyways
2.0 for the outer
it appears the 2.5 would actually be suitable all around
but the two size combo seams fine so far
i also was sick to death of the huge sting that the water seals represented
- and i reckon only once in 10 did i actually get a faultless set of mazda water seals for my money
- always one stuffed out on the join, before i have even received them
i steered away from shops due to bad experiences with "opened " kits with all **** inner seals
:x i know when i just bought all the shop rejects
Just want to confirm as well that the 'green rubber o-ring' in the oil control rings are Viton and the correct sizes are available and much cheaper than Mazda.
they are not always green, mazda changed the colour back and forwards
i haven't done it myself yet
i have always coughed out for mazda ones
as for viton, some US aftermarket mobs ( i am thinking its RA and maybe pineapple )
have been using Viton for water seal kits
and also substitute oil control O rings for years
the mazda oil control ones are a combination of a few rubbers,
flourosilicon coated nitrile i think
( don't quote but something fancy )
but i believe the rx8 ones are viton which in most respects is the most resistant of all the rubbers
I remember something about F1 mechanics getting sick from handling the stuff when it was hot.
i am gonna hold my breath
PS
25 000 km in, still AOK, no water leaks, motor comp A1, LPG fuel 100%
09-18-08, 05:26 PM
#18
4th string e-armchair QB
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: North Bay, Ontario
Posts: 2,745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's some crazy **** about the electrical wire though! But seriously, you should be using Black electrical wire with Red striping on it. That wouldn't be as fast, but you'd get points for being JDM.
10-06-08, 08:54 AM
#21
GRINCHY
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: oz
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's so redneck- I love it and will try it[being that I'm also a redneck]
I use standard 18 gauge electrical wire (yellow, because yellow is faster) with a smearing of Right Stuff silicone. Haven't had a problem yet in two engines. A $10 roll is enough for almost two builds.
The first engine damaged the rotor housings because the wire I used was slightly too thick (must be about .091" diameter, the stuff I'd used was about .095") and it crushed the rotor housings where the (unsupported) P-port holes were. So when I rebuilt it, I just used the correct size wire and used only sealant in the intake port area. Haven't torn that engine back down but it was still holding coolant despite horrible full power misfiring. Current engine has 3k on it so far, regularly sees 9000rpm, as well as ~230deg coolant temps
The first engine damaged the rotor housings because the wire I used was slightly too thick (must be about .091" diameter, the stuff I'd used was about .095") and it crushed the rotor housings where the (unsupported) P-port holes were. So when I rebuilt it, I just used the correct size wire and used only sealant in the intake port area. Haven't torn that engine back down but it was still holding coolant despite horrible full power misfiring. Current engine has 3k on it so far, regularly sees 9000rpm, as well as ~230deg coolant temps
06-17-09, 12:26 PM
#22
I know I'm bringing this thread back from the dead but while I was in the hardware store earlier today I ran across some square nylon weed eater string .095" has anyone ever used that for a coolant seal? if i remember right nylon is fuel resistant but I don't know about heat characteristics..
06-17-09, 01:15 PM
#23
4th string e-armchair QB
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: North Bay, Ontario
Posts: 2,745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't speak from experience, however I've dealt with a lot of nylon fuel line. One thing I know is that it is not that heat resistant, and doesn't bend very well (it's brittle). If it was to go through multiple heat cycles with extreme heat, I imagine it would crack and fail over time. I don't think you can beat Viton or similar materials for it.
10-14-09, 01:01 AM
#25
Old [Sch|F]ool
For the record, my engine is now drinking a small amount of coolant. I think it's getting in when the engine is cold but the cooling system is still pressurized. It's not severe, but if I don't watch the coolant level then after about a month the water level will be below the water pump and the engine will display typical "HEY DUMBASS ADD COOLANT" characteristics. Also it runs on one rotor for a few seconds on a cold start.
So, about maybe 12-15,000 miles and lots of running hot and general abuse, that's pretty good for the price.
I plan on pulling it apart anyway, make the intake ports just a weee bit larger, do some more work to the rotors, see how the rotor housings are holding up to the Atkins seals, check for the FC housing coolant land cracking problem, maybe replace the oil O-rings and side seals, etc. I'll probably use Mazda inners next time. Or, maybe not... have had good luck so far.
So, about maybe 12-15,000 miles and lots of running hot and general abuse, that's pretty good for the price.
I plan on pulling it apart anyway, make the intake ports just a weee bit larger, do some more work to the rotors, see how the rotor housings are holding up to the Atkins seals, check for the FC housing coolant land cracking problem, maybe replace the oil O-rings and side seals, etc. I'll probably use Mazda inners next time. Or, maybe not... have had good luck so far.
