Details are in the thread somewhere but here goes. Basically the 2pc seals will seal better at cranking comp and low rpm operation. In N/A engines a torque gain can be expected by dropping in a 1pc ceramic seal. A further torque gain is noticed by dropping in a 2pc ceramic seal. 1pc seals are favoured in drag applications as they are believed to be the strongest version but we are going to test this theory in the coming months.

2pc seals have been arranged for drag, road race and street applications so stay tuned for the results. I'd much rather give everyone proof positive results rather than quoting what various builders have told me.

 

No more info pack, all the details and then some are in this thread. It's a long read but most questions will be answered in the thread. As always if there is something specific you want to know just ask

 

Nothing yet, I will likely order a small batch of the new material billets and make them into 1pc seals. I really need to make sure the size we are going to use will yeild the finished parts to my satisfaction. We try to get the billets as close to the net size as possible to minimise waste maste material and keep costs down so I have to be really careful that these billets will meet the requirements. Therefore it just makes sense to do a smaller run so I can see if the sizing needs to be adjusted. Hopefully not as changing the size will slow things up somewhat. Unfortunately this transition into the new material will take some time but I feel now is the time to move in this direction.....the sooner the better.

So, having said that I will likely have enough material made to do about 100 pcs in 1pc and see how they come out. Hopefully this will meet everyones needs until we are up and running fully.

12A springs is another thing I need to figure out. I get very little call for 12A seals so I don't have the proper fixtures to hard face the shorter springs. Perhaps the 13B springs could be trimmed and still leave enough hard facing to do the job. We'll have to see. The problem is the small quantities. Any time I set-up for hard facing I normally do around 500+ springs to get any kind of pricing deal so the problem with 12A springs is how to work them into the run when there is only a handful of them.

 

The used engine with 80k. Did this engine run premix or OMP?

 

Yeah, STOCK 2 or 3 piece seals tend to break at the tip of the angle on the long piece during detonation, but this is probably due to the wearing edge being heat treated to hard but weak crystalline structure all the way across the seal length and that angle having no malleable steel left under it to support flex.

If Mazda made steel apex seals with the care that Japanese swords were over 1,000 years ago rotaries would have a better reputation for reliability. Plus, you could choose your Hamon shape and Hada for extra style points.

Instead of hard facing the springs would it be easier to put a thin stamped piece of metal under the ceramic apex seal for the spring to ride on? I asked you this a couple of years ago, but never got a response. Perhaps it is too dumb an idea to warrant one? :P

 

Not at all, actually I did answer you but I think it was a page or two later.

 

I know it wasn't running premix so I assume it was omp

 

Glassman
Found it. You responded promptly the next post the second time I asked the question in this thread, I just slept through class

What I had envisioned was a thin piece of high moly steel (or something else w/ good wear) stamped in the shape of the bottom of the apex seal. Now the spring rides on the stamped piece so wear is normal and there is no wear between the seal and stamped piece as there is no movement.

Sounds a lot easier to me than coated springs.

OR, you could get fancy and have a cast, forged or milled metal piece the spring rides against so that the ceramic seal can be perfectly flat across the bottom to decrease ceramic machining costs.

You could cut it diagonally lengthwise and get the sealing benefit found in the 3 piece seals.

 

Sven and Marc,
The apex seals and housings look great. A few questions:
For the two housings pictured, is one Cermet A and the other Cermet B?
Did one coating appear to be more compatible/effective than the other?
Did the more inexpensive B Cermet wear more than the A?
Would you expect similar results for turbo applications?
Thanks, Barry

 

Here's the cermet B housing, a bit dark though



Here's the two housings together, cermet B on the left and A on the right.



I think I can answer one of your questions, yes I would expect similar results in turbo engines. Marc will have to answer the others.

 

Do we have an eta on the 13b 3mm 1pc yet?

 

I'll be working on getting that answer this coming week. I just need to coordinate everything and see how long it will take to get some made. I've been working on 2mm springs and am happy to report that surface grinding 3mm springs to 2mm worked out quite well. We had to make a surround in 0.063" cold roll to keep the springs in place and we are using a fine pole mag now so they are coming out really nice. This week we will have the fixture made for hard facing the 2mm springs so I expect to have something ready in a couple of weeks in both 2mm and 3mm.

Here's pics of the 2mm springs before hard facing.

 

Peter of Rice has me sold on ceramics as of late and it just so happens i'm building my new block so i'll be getting me a set

i can't wait!

 

I'm considering making some 12A seals along with the small run of 2 & 3mm 1pc I'm gearing up for.

There has been some interest in 12A seals and if anyone wants some now is the time to make yourself known.

I would prefer them to be 12A 1pc as we are setting up for 1pc 13B seals already.

mortenf and wankeltrim are in I'm sure but are there any others? Ideally I would like to make a minimum of 5 sets.

Please express your interest here or by pm

Thanks, Sven

 

You may as well make a couple 2mm versions of the 12A length seals since that's how wide the new 16x rotors will be for Mazda's new big block engine. You could get a head start in the aftermarket for that engine.

 

^^
Are the housings exactly the same width as 12A, 70mm? What about seal height and exact thickness, is it the same? Any references available that you know of?

 

Cough* motor is just sitting in peices waiting for the 3mm 1pc rew seals *Cough

 

The wheels are in motion

 

Uncle Hungry,

I have a set of 3mm 1 piece in top of the line gray w/ coated springs for 13B that I am just sitting on.

I will sell them for what I paid Sven if you need them. I can get pics and find the invoice tomorrow for you if you are interested.

Ian

 

pm sent

 

I tried "searching" this thread on the information pertaining to who does the cermet rotor housings but I was unsuccessful. I'm trying to get a head start to this winters project. Who does the coating? Can "worn" housings be used or should you great condition housings as you would in any other build? Thanks in advance. I'm glad to see such an improvement in our engines long term sealing capabilities

 

Yup, you know ill take a set if you do them (12A)..

 

Lance,

JHB does the cermet coatings..

www.jhbperformance.com

 

Any word on the new seals? Looking for 3mm seals.

 

I was wondering how do these NRS apex seals compare against the PTS apex seals .