rotarypower101

iTrader: (1)

Anyone know of any changes with the gas mixture percentages that is either coming or that is already here?

I heard that the “new” gas is going to be a higher concentration of alcohol, apparently causing higher EGTs and less resistance to detonation over current/previous formulas.

I was told this is really going to limit the amount of boost we can run on pump gas safely.

I haven’t been able to find any info on the subject at all!

Is there any truth to this? Any links someone can supply if it is true and imminent?

DriftFB

i haven't heard about that, but i have heard that certain rotary racing teams use special low octane fuel that burns easier and all of the way back into small corners of combustion area. Don't know how this would afect a turbo set-up though.

Michael_Rudy

there is one gas station company in canada that already does that, Mohawk, it just means that if you are mixing alcohol with pump gas for a higher octane you won't be able to

smnc

Umm... if you're talking about ethanol, it's actually a natural octane BOOSTER. Most cars aren't rated to run with anything othe than micoscopic ammounts of alcahol, but can run on somthing like up to 20% ethanol safely.

It may raise EGT a bit, but other than that shouldn't be a problem...

I can't see oil companies using a signigant ammount of ethanol tho, as it would take up WAY to much corn poduction to generate enough to supply a reasonable percentage of gasoline use.

BTW, Michael_Rudy:
Sunoco uses ethanol, along with anyone they supply. Mohawk out in the west, Pioneer in the T-dot...

88IntegraLS

When in doubt, water injection.

ronbros3

88 is correct! I have been reading some really old test papers, long before WW2, long before leaded gasoline, late 20s early 30s, they run supercharged engines and the only way they could stop detonation was water injection,and water/alcohol injection, alcohol tho became a fuel, so at extreme boost ,detonation would start again with the alcohol mix. up around 50 psi intake manifold pressure. but water alone they tested up to 90-100 psi manifold pressure , on gasoline 85 octane. thanks RON

rarson

They can't put too much alcohol into the gas because the alcohol is corrosive to many of our current fuel system components, like injectors, tank, etc. This is the difference between regular cars and FFV's. And like someone else said, both ethanol and methanol have higher octane than pump gas, but considering that you need twice as much alcohol as you do fuel, I would think this would be another reason why they would be unable to add a significant amount of alcohol to the fuel.

APEXL8T

I sell Shell and nothing from them except more detergent and that Vpower is a higher octane . They have not saidanything of alcohol base additives. Rarson is correct.Alcohol does cause problems with standed fuel systems when used in a high percentage or over a long period of time.
Systems are designed to handle this in racing.

rotarypower101

iTrader: (1)

Yes I am aware and have read a lot on the topic of the WI and I firmly believe in it as an effective detonation reducer. I have not got to the point were I can effectively integrate it into my system, but plan to.(I wish there was a aftermarket ecu with integrated support for WI!) and I would never tune with dependence on it, though it would be fun.

What I am simply trying to find out if gasoline standards are changing for the worse for turbo guys, and if any people have thoughts on the issue.

I was told that the alcohol (as in any alcohol containing OH grouping there are many) levels are going to be increasing from a quoted to me ~5% to ~10%+.

And that this is substantially on pump gas decreasing the safety range ie pressure at which we may tune our engines to comfortably without aux systems such as WI.

smnc

Told by whom...?

rotarypower101

iTrader: (1)

By a reliable local source (not dodging just don’t want to bring his name into it incase I really missed what he was saying)

I havnt been able to find any info on the subject, and am looking for information and links to find out more about the topic, and when and if this really is going to happen.

I would of thought more information would have been readily available if it is as major as I took it to be.

smnc

Yeah... I have a couple contacts with Esso (Candian Exxon), and hadn't heard anything... I might wanna ask them tho...

rotarypower101

iTrader: (1)

Ya if you could pry any info from the source that would be good.

I was talking to a friend about it and he said maybe what was meant by the conversation was simply seasonal gas and I took it incorrectly or there was a miscommunication. But what I heard was gas is changing beware! A few turbo cars have already had bad consequences because of the unwarned change in formulation. It seamed pretty clearly that is what was being told to me, but I don’t know. I will have to contact him again and specifically ask what was meant by his statement.

grotto107

Just purchased my FD a couple weeks ago, and I'm still learning. My owner's manual says that using any fuel with 10% or more ethanol will damage the rotary engine. It would be helpful to know which brands of fuel used octane boosters other than ethanol. I won't use fuel with "contains ethanol" on the pump. I just wonder which brands have ethanol and don't disclose it on the pumps.

smnc

I don't know how American law is, but in Canada they HAVE to disclose the use of anyting over... I think it's 2% ethanol

One source said he hadn't hard anything about Esso (Exxon) incrreasing ethanol (they use ~1% right now) in their fuel...
I haven't talked to the other yet...

rarson

It sounds to me like you are talking about "seasonal gas" which is more oxygenated than regular gas. The result is usually poorer gas quality. A lot of areas use these higher oxygenated gasolines in certain seasons for air quality. I think there may be a few places like California that use them all the time. I have no idea how they oxygenate the gas though. There should be a label at the pump describing it if it is in fact oxygenated gas.

BenzaLee

I would like to see what additives that different manufacturers use in gas. I know alchohol is not the only additive used; it may be toluene or mtbe(sp?).

88IntegraLS

Not really relevent to the theme of this thread but there is an aftermarket ECU that handles water injection, it's called Megasquirt. Only catch is that the software is in the alpha stage for water injection control, but it is one added capabiliy of the classic Megasquirt unit thanks to the continual efforts of some very gifted programmers donating their spare time.

yelwoci

Aquamist http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
supplies most turbo works rally cars

rotarypower101

iTrader: (1)

Hey do you have any links that are informative? Cant really find anything relevant on their forum and from searching around?

So are they running it independently or totally integrated with its own dependent WI map?

Do they even have the ignition system working properly for a rotary yet?

88IntegraLS

The best place to look is in the "megasquirt -n- spark -e" forum. That's the name of the spark handling megasquirt code version, which also has extra features like launch control (rpm-dot limit basically), water injection control, nitrous map, etc.

http://msefi.com/viewforum.php?f=4&s...5731c4ed9fc6e9

I haven't been following the water injection effort much but there currently is a menu in the latest tuning software which turns it on / sets it up, etc. I've been wrestling with rotary spark control but I'm definately going to install water injection when I get the time.

smnc

Detegents, water removers (gas-line anti-freeze), oxygen boosters, other alcohols, other oil derivitives...

fastcarfreak

I was gonna recommend the same.

smnc

I finnaly got word from my other contact at Esso(Exxon)...
He confimed that Esso has no plans to signifigantly modify their gasoline formula... at least in Canada. He also said he hasn't heard anything about the US or other Canadian brands either, but that he would keep his ears open.