JHew84

iTrader: (9)

yes mazda has the money but that doesn't mean they want to spend it in that particular area. You might have the money to buy a hooker but that doesn't mean you want to spend the money on a hooker, understand?

BLitzed33

I just run AMSOIL 20W50 Series 2000 full synthetic oil, no OMP, and AMSOIL synthetic pre-mix in the gas. Have no issues at all, run C16 all the time. Rotary are easy on bearings to begin with, and I have never heard of a oil related failure on a RX7, unless it was a mechanical oil pump failure or a gazillion miles and the thing was just worn out. I can see if grandma was driving and never really got on the car to get it up to temps to clear the carbon out...but its really whatever floats your boat...just the point of the doing the oil changes regularly is the main thing.

Funny talking about manufacture idiocy....Audi still stands by its 10,000 mile oil changes, in the beginning, they didnt even recommend synthetics in the A4 1.8T's in their free maintenance program.

Now, the slude factor is catching up and LOTS of engines are sludging up , clogging the oil pick up screens, and damaging motors. So, what did they do, require the use of synthetics in all 05 models and up, upgrade to a bigger oil filter to hold more capacity of oil, before the 1.8T's held about 3.8 qts of oil....going 10K non synthetic, yea I can see them sludging...now they hold 4.3 qts. Audi has taken a beating and warranting all A4 1.8T unlimited milage or 8 years for a desludge procedure or replacement of engine free of charge if needed. Yes I have been doing LOTS of warranty engines and desludge procedures. Anyway, enough about that, I work on Audi's for a living, so I see the stupid crap Audi does everyday just to try and save a few bucks now, but in the long run, cost them more. Pencil pushers baby, gotta luv em, cause they are still doing 10K maintenance intervals, and will just clog up again, lol.

And to the paranoid person who started this thread, dont believe everything you read...as there are plenty of technical bulletins I read everyday that means jackshit to the everyday car...most are MAYBE 2 percent that are actually related to the bulletin. Like someone said earlier, new synthetics are a whole new ball game compared to the old old ones. The Mazda 787B ran Full synthetic for 24 hrs. of lemans right, so obviously it wasnt too bad The person to ask would be Jim Downing haha.

Kento

Sigh ...OK, here it is, one more time for the cheap seats:
POSSIBLE FUTURE WARRANTY CLAIMS
A Mazda technician discovered an engine that had major deposits that was supposedly running "a synthetic oil". He brought it to the attention of his superiors, who quickly deduced that extensive testing of synthetic oils on the market would be prohibitively expensive (remember who controls Mazda's purse strings? FoMoCo, who are already in dire financial straights...), so rather than go through all that trouble, they simply send out a tech bulletin that states not to use synthetic oil otherwise this MIGHT happen. This way, they save themselves the possibility that Mazda would have to endure any warranty claims based on a situation similar to what occurred with that particular engine in the photo, without having to go through the expense of extensive testing (and as stated previously, no, they haven't "tested over and over and over..." with synthetics because they'd publish specifics if they had).

Also, just FYI: the best dino oils are not some completely "inferior oil" compared to synthetic motor oil. There is nothing wrong with using good dino oil.

See above.

Zebb

I still dont belive Mazda hasent invested millions i research. They are the only company that uses rotarys and they SHOULD now what they are doing. Maybe im naive but thats what i think. I know Audi are asses (i own one) but i have higher thoughts of Mazda.

Dont believe everything i read? No i wont. I will run a synthetic in my enginge too, but with a good 2-stroke oil in the OMP system.

Juan

iTrader: (28)

Seriously, what more proof do you need?

Heres a small list of shops that use synthetics:
- Fujita Engineering (FEED). They have their own synthetic oil which they use on rotary engines.
- Blitz. They also have their own synthetic oil which is also used on rotary engines.
- RMagic. Same as the shops above.
- Racing Beat. They sell and recommend synthetic oils for rotary engines.
- Mazdatrix. They use and sell synthetic oils.
- The 787B. Mazda's own rotary race car used Idemitsu synthetic oil for its 24hr race which it won.

The list goes on and on and on. Many race cars here in the states, australia, puerto rico, japan and all over the world use synthetic oils on rotaries.

Stop believing everything Mazda says.

Kento

Once again, Mazda can't "invest millions in research" because Ford bought a controlling interest in the company when Mazda was teetering on the brink of bankruptcy in the 90s. "Controlling interest" means that they control the financial expenditures of the company, and Mazda hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire with regards to sales of the RX-8. With both FoMoCo and Mazda not exactly on solid ground financially these past few years, do you think that Ford would allow millions of dollars to go into research for an engine that is only a fraction of their total automobile output? Don't be so ignorant.

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

Actually about 5 years ago my friend ordered data sheets from Valvoline and their synthetic was really high ash. I wouldnt use that one but Mobile1, Amsoil, and RP are all really low and almost 0.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

This isn't an apples to oranges comparison. You guys need to understand the major minor differences in which the Renesis and older rotaries operate. Lets compare NA 12a-13b with NA Renesis. All Na rotaries run equally as hot. Carbon in the older engines was more easily expelled out the peripheral exhaust port slowing build up. This isn't the case with the side exhaust ported Renesis. By design the Renesis side exhaust port is placed in this position to allow for zero overlap and for some of the unburnt fuel/air mixture to go through another combustion process to further burn and lower emissions. It's obvious that the use of Synthetic in a Renesis engine is having more of a negative effect than in the older engines. With the design already allowing for the unburnt fuel/air to go around again, the possible side effect is that it's causing additional build-up in the intake ports where as in the older engines, these gases would have exited the peripheral exhaust port. Hell even with normal oil the Renesis is more prone to carbon build-up simply due to the location of it's exhaust port and unburnt mixture going around again. The Renesis engine simply can't expel enough carbon on it's own so it needs more reving to help keep clean. Look at the shear number of engines failing vacuum test in the auto models. Now compare that to any peripheral exhaust ported rotary in the past. The renesis autos are having excessive carbon build up in only a few thousand miles of granny driving. The exhaust port location for the most part is at fault here.

In closing sythetics "appear" to be bad for Renesis but not for the older engines.

SPOautos

That being the case I'm suprised they developed the renesis along with everything else thats different such as different intake and exhaust manifolds, tb, ignition system, ect ect ect. They spent a lot of money to refresh the engine and everything attached to it.

Honestly people, it wouldnt take much money for mazda to pull a few remans off a shelf, hook them up to a table starter (similar to a engine dyno) and run them with varoius oils to see what the outcome is.

As for the financial side, just because they released a bulletin on not using synthetics doesnt mean they dont have to replace engines if you do, the manual said synthetics were ok. And if they were still putting synthetics in engines they would make more money changing oil on cars since they dont do that for free.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that some sythetics are fine and some are probably causing problems. Rather than they saying which ones are good and which arent (which would require them to test EVERY current syn oil and future oil) they just say that synthetic shouldnt be used.

Stephen

Kento

There's a big difference between spending money developing (or refining, whichever way you want to look at it) an engine that will bring substantial profits to the company, versus spending money on research that is only necessary to substantiate something that is fairly small on the radar screen in the grand scheme of company financial planning.
You're forgetting the fact that testing requires manpower hours, both to run and check the machines, and then to collate and analyze the data. Mazda isn't exactly swimming in idle engineers waiting for something to do.

That's true, didn't think about that. However, it could quickly change if there was a sudden rash of early engine failures, and a bulletin is the first step toward a complete campaign to release them from liability.

Basically stated in previous posts...

ttmott

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm
Maybe I should reconsider....

117000 miles
Original motor
M2 Stage III for over 60000 miles
Mobil 1 for over 70000 miles

No I'll stick with what works for me..

SPOautos

Just seems like to me, as much money as Mazda has lost over the years replacing rotary engines under warrenty (I can only imagine that its a mind boggling sum) that they would have looked for every possible way to make the engines last which would more than likely include testing with various oils. If they felt like synthetics gave any measurable benifit at all I'm sure they would suggest everyone start using synthetic. If for no other reason they could get $70 on a oil change instead of $30.

With so many people using synthetics in the world today I would imagine Mazda would be chomping at the bit to suggest or even require synthetics for the rx8 so that they can capitalize on it. The fact that they DID try to suggest it and hope to capitalize on it by selling over priced oil to all of thier new rx8 customers...then only to spend money and customer confidence by taking back suggest to me that they felt there was a real problem liability in the form of warranty claims due to some synthetics.

Personally, I just wish I could find the information on exactly what oil was in the cars that had the problem because like I said before, I think the problem is more related to certain types of synthetics and they are just trying to cover thier bases by saying all synthetics.

Stephen

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

Mazda did not reccoment using synthetic oils for the rotary in the 3rd gen for the following reasons.

1. The emissions testing done in order to be certified for sale in the United States was done with mineral oils.

2. The durability tests done on the emissions components were done using mineral oils.

3. Synthetic oil burns at a higher temp than mineral oil. Repeated short trips could lead to spark plug fouling.

4. Oil sprayed inside the rotor cavities can contact the the rotor oil seal o-rings. Long term exposure to synthetic oil may cause these seals to swell and deteriorate.

rcjack86

i just got my rx7 and i put a quart of lucas pure synthetic in it, after reading this, im not sure wot to do, som1 pls help.
1986 rx7 non turbo
ngk plugs and wires are all the mods i know of

slo

iTrader: (1)

I used that lucas stuff once in a mitsu truck I had. Oil started leaking immediatly. I changed the oil the next day back to rotella, and it stopped. I will never touch that **** again.

RICE RACING

Here is what to do

GO BUY MOBIL 1 SYNTHETIC 5W-50

If it does any harm to your engine I will personaly warranty every single rotary engine failure world wide that is caused by running this oil. The only thing that will happen is your engine will last much longer !!!

Mazda are full of **** ! Listen to them at your own peril, OR you can listen to rotary experts who acutaly do R&D and use quality products as a result

Last time I looked Racing Beat were not to bad with rotaries? they recommend synthetics, but I could be wrong its not as if they have been doing this for any great length of time LOL !!!

I have been using Mobil 1 for the past 15 years and acumulated personaly over 1 million killometers in testing over various engines and I HAVE NEVER EVER seen ANY of the "scare scenarios Mazda R&D have perpetuated over the years NEVER !!!"

How can you believe a company that produces engines with steel seals when the competion department sells Ceramic Nitride seals as a factory part number in your market, they are NOT INTERESTED in durability, they are ONLY INTERESTED IN PROFITS and increased PARTS SALES !!!!

This debate died many many years ago, I for one am sick to death of reading about it year after f*cking year ! NEWBIES use synthetic OR use inferior lubricant the choice is yours.

crispeed

Mazda is using the whole synthetic oil story as a scape goat to cover other major designed flaws in the RX-8 motor. The side seals for example in my opinion have a major flaw. Just about every motor I have opened, all the side seals looked like they had over 300k miles on it. Excessive side seal clearance only leads to one thing period in a rotary motor. One that's going to beat itself to death in a very short time. Most of the motors are suffering from blow-by and lost of compression in very short periods. The motors are experiencing the same problems they did when Mazda tried the 'multi side port' experiments in the 70's and then they blamed the induction choice of the time which was carburation for leading to excessive carbon build up in both the intake and exhaust ports to the point where the ports would almost completly become blocked by carbon. I guess modern day fuel injection did not stop that from happenning.
Mazda had no choice to assemble the side seals in the rx-8 motor with excessive clearance due to the high rate of expansion from heat transfered from the exhaust port. The side seal clearance in the rx-8 motor at minimum would come up at 0.010 to 0.015 inches from factory. The excessive clearance is causing the side seals to hammer a groove into the corner seals which results in lower compression over a period of time not to mention a path for the exhaust gasses to escape back into the fresh intake mixture. Ever wondered why some of the rx-8's are experiencing worst fuel economy than what Mazda claims from factory or even what was experienced in the previous rx-7.
The above is just what I've experienced on a pesonal level. It's obvious that not all the rx-8s are experiencing the same problems but only time will tell.

peejay

Do you live in Europe, where that bulletin is from?

Noooo.....

SPOautos

From what you've seen is there a very good fix for this while still retaining the same port type? What would happen if ceramic side seals were used? Seems like that would that solve the problem for the most part?

Stephen

kazisdaman

After tearing down 2 engines at a Rotary Engine Shop.

I have never seen anything like that. I probably torn down 100 engines at least, and only one renesis motor while I was there. Never seen any of the FD's first gens, or anything have that kind of build up.

atd

yawn yawn ****** yawn!

now

iTrader: (1)

I never use synthetics, its to much money of you change it early and often.

that said

i just pulled a 88 vert motor that had mobil 1 used in it
for some time and it was one if the cleanest i have ever opened with the
least wear on the irons and housings that i have ever seen for a motor
with its mileage.
think this is a renesis problem.
matt

BoostedRX

Ok, sorry to keep dragging on the topic, but I'm hearing alot of people saying good things about Mobil 1 Synthetic.

I need to know of Castrol GTX Full Synthetic. I've been using 10W30 in my FC T2 for the past year and a half when I first bought the car. I wanna make sure i'm doing the right thing so has anyone here had long term experiance with Castrol GTX Full-Syn??? My engine has 16,000 miles on a rebuild. I just wanna double check.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

David,

Glad to see you on the forum and trying to educate some of these brainwashed kids!

I must be a really bad sinner since I have been running RB 10-30 oil and Dexcool antifreeze for 7 years without any problems in my 13B-REW FD moddified engine.

Chuck

Roen

iTrader: (2)

It's not that hard to understand.

You can't make a blanket statement saying all synthetics are bad, and all synthetics are good. There are some good, and some bad ones.

Known to be good is Royal Purple. At Sevenstock, I believe rotarygod met one of the senior engineers of the rotary engine, I think it was the "father of the rotary" himself, I forget the name. He recommended Royal Purple, but wasn't so keen on Mobil 1. He also pushed Idemitsu, but he himself worked on that oil, so I guess a shameless plug isn't so bad.

Castrol Syntec (Refer to second gen FAQ in second gen section) was discussed to be a bad oil, a long with some others, because they had high ash content.

Now it's easy for me to sit here and say who's good and who's bad. If Mazda went out and publicly said this, all of the "bad oil" companies would serve Mazda with lawsuits for defamation. The only way to win those lawsuits would be to test each and every oil, and even then, defamation suits could still be ruled against Mazda. Rather than forking over money for testing, then forking over more money for incurred legal expenses, making a blanket statement that all synthetics are bad became Mazda's safe and cost-effective way out.

Zebb, just because Mazda has the money for research, doesn't mean they want to spend it on research. If you had the money for a diseased prositute, would you spend the money on him/her/it? I'd hope not, because like Mazda, you don't want to spend money on things that you don't have to.

These points are only effective if the stock OMP is still being used. Once you go full pre-mix and disable the OMP, any synthetic can be used. And yes, that is a blanket statement. And yes, it's already been proven true.

I didn't know they made GTX Full-syn. I thought they only had Syntec? Then again, I don't really browse product lines and only use Castrol GTX mineral and Royal Purple synthetic exclusively.