Increasing displacement of rotary engine - CNC talk
06-17-17, 09:27 PM
#27
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
I disagree. It's not "little" more work. Changing rotor profile means absolutely new everything--everything from side seals, oil ring, o-rings, intermediate plates, front plate, timing crap, etc.
I'm not going to reinvent the wheel. Not doing any special coating, etc. Steel liner is something I thought about, but I most likely will talk with some of companies to chrome the housings when the time comes.
Like I said though, the main focus would be replicate some rare parts that has skyrocketed in price. I am hoping I can get some destroyed 20b parts so I can start playing with it in solidworks. Once I have these parts in accurate CAD format, I still think increasing displacement is feasible. Frankly, I am not sure why nobody has done it.
I'm not going to reinvent the wheel. Not doing any special coating, etc. Steel liner is something I thought about, but I most likely will talk with some of companies to chrome the housings when the time comes.
Like I said though, the main focus would be replicate some rare parts that has skyrocketed in price. I am hoping I can get some destroyed 20b parts so I can start playing with it in solidworks. Once I have these parts in accurate CAD format, I still think increasing displacement is feasible. Frankly, I am not sure why nobody has done it.
06-17-17, 09:33 PM
#28
100k
https://markforged.com/metal-x/
they show parts done in 50 micron.
I print some PLA stuff at 50 and you can't feel any steps. that being said, i would keep mazdas rotors to use mazda seals as stated above if you change size then you have to make your own side corner and apex seals... that would probably be in the millions. or like 100k.. for one set.
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 06-17-17 at 09:38 PM.
06-17-17, 09:35 PM
#29
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
I looked at the site and all I can say is, size matters. Rotors are kinda big compared to the stuff they showed.
06-17-17, 09:41 PM
#30
A 20B with 80 percent increased rotor width and no other custom stuff? Either way man, I like the discussion and I am not arguing. I've been spending my time thinking about center bearings, why they don't seem to work, and a solution. I have what I think are some really good ideas. I think a center bearing (13B) could open doors to other stuff because of minimized e-shaft flex like a lighter shaft and rotors, and tighter clearances in the rotor chamber.
13B 2-PIECE CENTRE BEARING ECCENTRIC SHAFT | Products Pac Performance
https://www.mazdatrix.com/instructio...ingFitment.pdf
06-17-17, 09:46 PM
#31
i thought about 3d printing some and then casting them from the prints, but my machine "only" does 12 x 12 x 15.. the next model i buy can do 18 x 18 x 18 inches. the rotor is smaller then the housings by a long shot, i could do 2 rotors at the same time right now
06-17-17, 10:24 PM
#32
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
center bearing 13b engines have been out for years, what are you smoking?
13B 2-PIECE CENTRE BEARING ECCENTRIC SHAFT | Products Pac Performance
https://www.mazdatrix.com/instructio...ingFitment.pdf
13B 2-PIECE CENTRE BEARING ECCENTRIC SHAFT | Products Pac Performance
https://www.mazdatrix.com/instructio...ingFitment.pdf
Last edited by TonyD89; 06-17-17 at 10:29 PM.
06-18-17, 01:10 AM
#33
lastphase, I read about markforge video long time ago when they were starting out. My concern was math of compensating for natural shrinkage as you heat to finalize the metal, substrate cost for making something like a rotor housing, and 3D printed metal not being as strong as machined metal.
there are some obvious advantages.
let's say we don't need the final machining and if it really does the micron precision, I don't see a need anyway. how much would the substrate cost to make something like a rotor housing?
I'm mostly worried about the final product's strength and substrate cost to make a work piece.
and how long does it take to print a rotor? for example.
there are some obvious advantages.
let's say we don't need the final machining and if it really does the micron precision, I don't see a need anyway. how much would the substrate cost to make something like a rotor housing?
I'm mostly worried about the final product's strength and substrate cost to make a work piece.
and how long does it take to print a rotor? for example.
06-18-17, 01:25 AM
#34
tony, i wasn't arguing either. I just wanted to elucidate my position:
first, I would love to spend some time, resources, and money to copy rare rotary parts which have been skyrocketing in price. they are just machined hunk of metal whose dimensions are right there. I personally want to do it because I think it'll be fun and would provide nice deductions for workshop I'm building.
second, my initial focus is to provide accurate CAD of front/rear/intermediate housings, rotor, rotor housings, and e-shaft. I want to focus on 3 rotor parts because I think 2 rotor parts are still very plentiful without being too expensive in the second hand market.
third, I want to play with CNC to mill a few plates, and install them.
fourth, my primitive thinking is if we have CAD of forementioned parts, I can see how I can just lengthen rotor width, corresponding housing and eccentric lobe width to increase displacement for 2 rotor engines. I would have to source longer apex seal somehow and that's still the unknown for me. 3 rotor with increased displacement would be too long for most sensible install IMHO. about your ideas of altering geometry, I simply lack the expertise and resources to increase the displacement any other way. if you want to take a shot, I would love that. that's pretty much the story. it wasn't about denouncing your ideas. I just want to make it clear it's not something I want to tackle.
first, I would love to spend some time, resources, and money to copy rare rotary parts which have been skyrocketing in price. they are just machined hunk of metal whose dimensions are right there. I personally want to do it because I think it'll be fun and would provide nice deductions for workshop I'm building.
second, my initial focus is to provide accurate CAD of front/rear/intermediate housings, rotor, rotor housings, and e-shaft. I want to focus on 3 rotor parts because I think 2 rotor parts are still very plentiful without being too expensive in the second hand market.
third, I want to play with CNC to mill a few plates, and install them.
fourth, my primitive thinking is if we have CAD of forementioned parts, I can see how I can just lengthen rotor width, corresponding housing and eccentric lobe width to increase displacement for 2 rotor engines. I would have to source longer apex seal somehow and that's still the unknown for me. 3 rotor with increased displacement would be too long for most sensible install IMHO. about your ideas of altering geometry, I simply lack the expertise and resources to increase the displacement any other way. if you want to take a shot, I would love that. that's pretty much the story. it wasn't about denouncing your ideas. I just want to make it clear it's not something I want to tackle.
06-22-17, 10:19 PM
#35
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I'm really happy with everyone's passion on here.
When it comes to material selection, I think that Snowmobile/Mini 4x4 Community has it done right. Anyways, on the types of treatments we can expect, here's a quote from one of their forums:
When it comes to material selection, I think that Snowmobile/Mini 4x4 Community has it done right. Anyways, on the types of treatments we can expect, here's a quote from one of their forums:
This is a post by Eric Gore to a thread titled "Ceramic bore coatings." I have NOT edited it so you can get a feel for Mr. Gore's background. Eric Gore runs a highly respected two stroke engine mod. company.
EricGorr: Coatings and other stuff
Ok guys theres lots of stuff going on here and I'm going to try and cover it without {pixxing} off too many people off in the automotive industry for giving y'all the inside scoop.
Coated Liners – The ad SFO saw in the PRI magazine is for a company named Perfect Bore, located in Andover England. They make liners in a variety of materials and are a preffered F-1 vendor. Materials include aluminum (or as they say in the UK aluminium) steel, and GKN metal matrix composite. Aluminum and MMC liners are used in a wet application for modern F-1 and IRL engines. Steel liners are used in a dry application for cast iron blocks in NASCAR & NHRA applications. They don't make cast iron liners and coat them, that concept would make their CEO Martin Case cringe! Perfect Bore is owned by Performance Motorsport Inc. which is the group that also owns Wiseco, Vertex, and Carrillo. PMI's parent company is Dover Diversified. Perfect Bore's American agent is A.I. LeGrande Wood, known in the racing industry as Woody. He owns DRC (Detroit Racing Components) in Ortonville Michigan. I consider Woody to be one of the most influential innovators in NASCAR racing because he's responsible for adapting and integrating F-1 racing technology in the form of processes, products, and corporate development to American auto racing. He's a smart dude and his son Allan races vet motocross and is a DRN member.
Perfect Bore's coatings are handled by A.T. Poeton & Sons in Gloucester England. That company also owns Max Power Cylinders Inc. in Madison Wisconsin. My connection to these companies started like this; In 1996 Poeton and Perfect Bore started Max Power as a joint venture and contracted me to be the general manager and essentially start the business from scratch, doing site planning, assembling the plant, filing EPA licenses, writing the marketing plan and all the advertisements, hiring and training staff and making the “big machine run”.
Me and Max Power - In 2000 I left my position at MPC because an unqualified individual was hired in a nepotistic fashion by the president of MPC, supposedly to work as my right hand man. He was much younger and was paid much more money than me. This guy hired all of his friends, also unqualified people with no motorcycle industry experience or even basic machining knowledge. The stress of baby-sitting for 75hrs a week was a bit much for me so I re-started my business Forward Motion so I could work one-on-one with my customers involved in motorcycle racing. Contrary to what people on the telephone at Max Power say about me, I gave 6 months notice and fulfilled all the goals outlined by Anthony Poeton including producing a technical manual for performance machining in accordance with a ISO 9001 quality system, a web site, and co-authoring an SAE technical paper that was the basis for marketing efforts to OEMs. All of the negative comments that MPC personel tell customers on the phone about me is untrue, but theres little that I can do about it.
I chose to align myself with US Chrome because Bob Reath, the CEO is an enthusiastic gear-head, with years of experience as a performance innovator and sponsor in IRL and NASCAR racing. USC doesn't compete against me and our businesses compliment each other. Now that we have that out of the way, lets get back to coatings.
Nickel Composite Coatings – Apticote is a tradename for Poeton and NICOM is a tradename for US Chrome. This is an electrolytic nickel composite coating using nickel as the matrix to dispurse silicon-carbide particles evenly across a bore surface so as to provide a load bearing wear resistant surface. The German Mahle company calls their coating NIKASIL and Kolbenschmit calls theres LOCASIL. They're all the same thing, no matter what their ads say about ceramic this or composite that, its all essentially a 30 year old technology first pioneered by US Chrome. {emphasis is Spear Warrior's}
Coating Cast iron – Nickel composite coatings can be applied to cast iron but its difficult because cast iron is a dirty material that requires a carefull pretreatment. Companies like RPM and Langcourt offer cast iron plating in their brochures and they do this by coating the entire cylinder in masking material then exposing only the bore. The reason is that the pretreatment acids used for aluminum and ferrous materials like steel and iron are different and will oxidize the other material. The reason why USC doesn't offer this service for mixed material cylinders like RZ350s is this; if any area of the masking cracks and the acid penetrates it will destroy the aluminum. Most of the people looking to have this work done are doing it for antique parts and USC doesn't want to take responsibility for a loss like that. Read the other companies brochures, they don't take responsibility for it either!
Right now US Chrome is the industry leader in plating cast iron blocks in NASCAR racing. The recent 1-engine rule has facilitated the growth of nickel composite coatings in cast iron engines. The reason why Perfect Bore offers steel liners instead is because their coating plant is in England and its too expensive to send blocks back and forth across the pond. Poeton's also has the ability to coat cast iron blocks and they run a business named APTEC out of their Gloucester works.
Keronite – This is a relatively new coating that's like a super hard anodizing process that penetrates the surface of aluminum or magnesium. It was developed at the Moscow Aviation Agency during the reign of the old Soviet Union. The two Russian-Jewish scientists that developed it left Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. One went to Isreal and started a company called Al-Mag. The other man immigrated to the UK to start Keronite. The main benefits of the coating is that it produces a wear and corrison resistant coating on aluminum and magnesium, without producing any hazardous waste. A tank of electolyte solution contains a high energy anode and parts for coating. The energy required for this process is tremendous and special cooling capabilities must be added to the process. The only Keronite plant in operation in the US is at Max Power in Madison Wisconsin. Anthony Poeton has started a new Poeton group company named Magnesium Coating Inc. to go after the market for corrision resistant magnesium products.
Al-Mag markets the coating in Isreal and the biggest use of the coating is for cylinder bores on 2-cycle drone airplane engines. Last year USC had some cylinders coated by Keronite UK. The cylinders were honed and tested for wear resistance, thermal transfer, and friction. The results were compared to nickel composite, MMC, and cast iron bores in an SAE paper presented at the 2001 SAE Congress meeting in Detroit. The paper was authored by Dr. John Carpenter and is available from the SAE Bookstore or by request from US Chrome. The results show that Keronite is not a great bore coating because it has thermal barrier characteristics and is relatively soft compared to nickel composite. But it is cheap, disposable, and hazardous waste free. Once a cylinder is coated with Keronite it can't be repaired like nickel coatings which can be chemically stripped. However there are many great uses for Keronite and if you work at a company that makes aluminum or magnesium parts that require wear or corrosion resistance, contact Anthony Poeton at 1-608-224-2524 to get some tech info on the benefits of the process.
EricGorr: Coatings and other stuff
Ok guys theres lots of stuff going on here and I'm going to try and cover it without {pixxing} off too many people off in the automotive industry for giving y'all the inside scoop.
Coated Liners – The ad SFO saw in the PRI magazine is for a company named Perfect Bore, located in Andover England. They make liners in a variety of materials and are a preffered F-1 vendor. Materials include aluminum (or as they say in the UK aluminium) steel, and GKN metal matrix composite. Aluminum and MMC liners are used in a wet application for modern F-1 and IRL engines. Steel liners are used in a dry application for cast iron blocks in NASCAR & NHRA applications. They don't make cast iron liners and coat them, that concept would make their CEO Martin Case cringe! Perfect Bore is owned by Performance Motorsport Inc. which is the group that also owns Wiseco, Vertex, and Carrillo. PMI's parent company is Dover Diversified. Perfect Bore's American agent is A.I. LeGrande Wood, known in the racing industry as Woody. He owns DRC (Detroit Racing Components) in Ortonville Michigan. I consider Woody to be one of the most influential innovators in NASCAR racing because he's responsible for adapting and integrating F-1 racing technology in the form of processes, products, and corporate development to American auto racing. He's a smart dude and his son Allan races vet motocross and is a DRN member.
Perfect Bore's coatings are handled by A.T. Poeton & Sons in Gloucester England. That company also owns Max Power Cylinders Inc. in Madison Wisconsin. My connection to these companies started like this; In 1996 Poeton and Perfect Bore started Max Power as a joint venture and contracted me to be the general manager and essentially start the business from scratch, doing site planning, assembling the plant, filing EPA licenses, writing the marketing plan and all the advertisements, hiring and training staff and making the “big machine run”.
Me and Max Power - In 2000 I left my position at MPC because an unqualified individual was hired in a nepotistic fashion by the president of MPC, supposedly to work as my right hand man. He was much younger and was paid much more money than me. This guy hired all of his friends, also unqualified people with no motorcycle industry experience or even basic machining knowledge. The stress of baby-sitting for 75hrs a week was a bit much for me so I re-started my business Forward Motion so I could work one-on-one with my customers involved in motorcycle racing. Contrary to what people on the telephone at Max Power say about me, I gave 6 months notice and fulfilled all the goals outlined by Anthony Poeton including producing a technical manual for performance machining in accordance with a ISO 9001 quality system, a web site, and co-authoring an SAE technical paper that was the basis for marketing efforts to OEMs. All of the negative comments that MPC personel tell customers on the phone about me is untrue, but theres little that I can do about it.
I chose to align myself with US Chrome because Bob Reath, the CEO is an enthusiastic gear-head, with years of experience as a performance innovator and sponsor in IRL and NASCAR racing. USC doesn't compete against me and our businesses compliment each other. Now that we have that out of the way, lets get back to coatings.
Nickel Composite Coatings – Apticote is a tradename for Poeton and NICOM is a tradename for US Chrome. This is an electrolytic nickel composite coating using nickel as the matrix to dispurse silicon-carbide particles evenly across a bore surface so as to provide a load bearing wear resistant surface. The German Mahle company calls their coating NIKASIL and Kolbenschmit calls theres LOCASIL. They're all the same thing, no matter what their ads say about ceramic this or composite that, its all essentially a 30 year old technology first pioneered by US Chrome. {emphasis is Spear Warrior's}
Coating Cast iron – Nickel composite coatings can be applied to cast iron but its difficult because cast iron is a dirty material that requires a carefull pretreatment. Companies like RPM and Langcourt offer cast iron plating in their brochures and they do this by coating the entire cylinder in masking material then exposing only the bore. The reason is that the pretreatment acids used for aluminum and ferrous materials like steel and iron are different and will oxidize the other material. The reason why USC doesn't offer this service for mixed material cylinders like RZ350s is this; if any area of the masking cracks and the acid penetrates it will destroy the aluminum. Most of the people looking to have this work done are doing it for antique parts and USC doesn't want to take responsibility for a loss like that. Read the other companies brochures, they don't take responsibility for it either!
Right now US Chrome is the industry leader in plating cast iron blocks in NASCAR racing. The recent 1-engine rule has facilitated the growth of nickel composite coatings in cast iron engines. The reason why Perfect Bore offers steel liners instead is because their coating plant is in England and its too expensive to send blocks back and forth across the pond. Poeton's also has the ability to coat cast iron blocks and they run a business named APTEC out of their Gloucester works.
Keronite – This is a relatively new coating that's like a super hard anodizing process that penetrates the surface of aluminum or magnesium. It was developed at the Moscow Aviation Agency during the reign of the old Soviet Union. The two Russian-Jewish scientists that developed it left Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. One went to Isreal and started a company called Al-Mag. The other man immigrated to the UK to start Keronite. The main benefits of the coating is that it produces a wear and corrison resistant coating on aluminum and magnesium, without producing any hazardous waste. A tank of electolyte solution contains a high energy anode and parts for coating. The energy required for this process is tremendous and special cooling capabilities must be added to the process. The only Keronite plant in operation in the US is at Max Power in Madison Wisconsin. Anthony Poeton has started a new Poeton group company named Magnesium Coating Inc. to go after the market for corrision resistant magnesium products.
Al-Mag markets the coating in Isreal and the biggest use of the coating is for cylinder bores on 2-cycle drone airplane engines. Last year USC had some cylinders coated by Keronite UK. The cylinders were honed and tested for wear resistance, thermal transfer, and friction. The results were compared to nickel composite, MMC, and cast iron bores in an SAE paper presented at the 2001 SAE Congress meeting in Detroit. The paper was authored by Dr. John Carpenter and is available from the SAE Bookstore or by request from US Chrome. The results show that Keronite is not a great bore coating because it has thermal barrier characteristics and is relatively soft compared to nickel composite. But it is cheap, disposable, and hazardous waste free. Once a cylinder is coated with Keronite it can't be repaired like nickel coatings which can be chemically stripped. However there are many great uses for Keronite and if you work at a company that makes aluminum or magnesium parts that require wear or corrosion resistance, contact Anthony Poeton at 1-608-224-2524 to get some tech info on the benefits of the process.
www.us-engines.com
A relatively new technology for smaller sized engines. NikasilTM is the trade name for German piston maker, Mahle'sTM patented nickel-silicon oxide cylinder plating, and plating process. This Technology was developed, in 1970, by MahleTM, with Porsche AGTM. It replaces, and is far superior to, sleeved and hard-chromed cylinder walls. Why?
Cylinder Walls are literally impregnated with silicon, resulting in a super low coefficient of friction, thus reducing engine heat and wear. Piston and cylinder expand at the same rate, thus, creating a seizure-resistent engine.
Lower friction also means easier and quicker engine starts.
Engines run cooler and with less vibration.
GroundhogTM engine temperatures were compared, (at 7,000 rpm) to other brands, (hard chromed), the result... Groundhog 41TM engines averaged 285°F, the others averaged 310°F.
Interesting trivia...The majority of Formula 1™ racecars use NikasilTM plated cylinders, including drivers David Coulthard and Mika Hakinen, and their Mercedes BenzTM, as well as Rubens Barrichelo and Michael Schumacher and their FerrariTM.
_____________________________
www.rpmsbigbore.com
Our plating and finish work is the best in the industry. Our repeat customers include FMF, Pro Circuit, White Brothers, YOT, Team Green, Factory Kawasaki/ Suzuki /Honda/Yamaha race teams and R+D Departments, Yamaha and TM warranty departments, ATK, NCY, Bills Pipes, Noleen Racing, AC Racing, Hinson Racing, Chapparral, MSR, Wiseco, JM Racing, MTC, Z-Racing, Yoshimura......and many dealers and race teams throughout the world.
Why nikasil and not a sleeve?
A: Nikasil lasts much longer, dissipates heat better, matches the ports better and makes more power. The only modern MX bikes that still use sleeves are the CR-500 and RM-80. Both are a dozen-or-so year old designs. Nikasil is used in all other MX bikes, all BMW motorcycles, Most Porsche, BMW and Mercedes cars, most outboards, the top of the line Snowmobiles and Personal Watercraft also run nikasil cylinders. FZR's, GSXR's and soon American cars are converting to nikasil.
_____________________________
Porsche 901 Engine Series http://www.ramaircraft.com/
NASCAR Winston Cup, BMW, and Porsche!
from 9,600 cylinders delivered during the past five years. Engine Components, Inc. ( ECi ) offers us a proprietary nickel and silicon carbide composite applied to the bores of their PMA new cylinders.
We use either their PMA new cylinders, or we have them apply their composite to the new OEM cylinders we use.
Following are quotes from Engine Builder Magazine, Nov. ‘02, Vol. 39, No.1. The Smooth Science of Cylinder Honing, by Technical Editor, Larry Carley. He notes:
“In recent years, Nikasil™ cylinder bore coatings have provided a [honing] challenge for engine builders. Nikasil™ is a hard coating of nickel and silicon carbide about .0025” to .003” thick, applied to cylinder bores to improve wear resistance.”
“Invented by the German firm Mahle, Nikasil was originally developed for the Mercedes ****el rotary engine. It has been used by BMW and Porsche in some of their engines, and is also used in some motorcycle and marine engines, and even many NASCAR Winston Cup engines.”
Kiebler explains,“NASCAR Winston Cup shops are using Nikasil™ cylinders. If it's good for NASCAR, it's not going to be long before you start seeing it in OEM engines.”
These industry icons of engine performance are using Nickel/Silicon Carbide cylinder bores to achieve durability, referred to as Nikasil.™ From experience, they know that cylinder bore quality plays a huge role in reducing friction and blow-by for improved engine performance and durability, and they are not in a position to be wrong about cylinder performance.
RAM has achieved durability too! No premature wear or corrosion
_____________________________
http://www.electrobuild.mb.ca/page2.html.
A coated cylinder was brought into the production of snowmobile engines for many reasons. i.e.: tighter tolerances, better wear resistance, exceptional oil retention, high temperature resistance, better coefficient of expansion with aluminum cylinders. All in all you get better performance than a cast sleeve.
_____________________________
www.walkerjet.com Nicasil is an expensive technology used for coating the cylinders of only the best quality engines on the market. It is far superior to sleeved and hard-chromed cylinder walls. It is a coating made up of nickel and silicon carbide. The Nicasil coating is very hard and durable thus providing a very long wearing surface for the piston and rings. Also the silicon carbide particles that are dispersed throughout the nickel form a multitude of adhesion spots on which oil can collect. This is another reason that engines with Nicasil coated cylinders last longer because of having improved cylinder lubrication. Also because the Nicasil coating literally impregnates the cylinder walls with silicon the result is a super low coefficient of friction, thus reducing engine heat and wear. Engines with Nicasil coated cylinders run cooler and with less vibration. Lower friction also means easier and quicker engine starts. Also an additional benefit is that the piston and cylinder expand at the same rate, thus, creating a very seizure-resistant engine. In racing two strokes both Morbidelli and Rotax have had great success with Nicasil and it is used in the most expensive professional grade chain saws. Porsche uses Nicasil in their turbocharged 917-935 series of race cars. In fact the majority of Formula 1 race cars use engines with Nicasil coated cylinders. Although the Nicasil process is very expensive, the resulting increase in the engines life span, performance and reliability more than offsets the cost. That is why WalkerJet only uses engines on their paramotors that have Nicasil coated cylinders.
_____________________________
Harpers Moto Guzzi www.harpermotoguzzi.com/parts.htm
Why have your cylinders Nikasiled? You get much better results than with the steel sleeves. Nikasil dissipates heat much more efficiently than steel. The cylinder walls are treated with the special Nikasil electroplating. Nikasil coated cylinders have a hardend surface that cannot peel and is more wear resistant than the steel sleeves.
Although the Nikasil process is expensive, the resulting increase in the cylinders life span, performance and reliability more than offset the cost.
_____________________________
Let's talk about cylinders www.recpower.com/hirth.htm
Most engines on the market today are built with steel sleeve cylinders. Although steel sleeves are less expensive than Nikasil, steel cannot dissipate heat as efficiently as aluminum and expands at a slower rate. As the heat in a steel sleeve cylinder engine increases the piston expands faster than the cylinder wall, steadily decreasing the piston clearance. To compensate for this, engines utilizing steel sleeve cylinders, must run lower CHT and EGT temperatures. Hirths' cylinders are of aluminum alloy; there are no sleeves. The cylinder walls have been treated with the patented Nikasil process. Nikasil coated cylinders have a hardened surface that cannot peel and is more wear resistant than steel sleeves. Because the cylinders are still an aluminum alloy, their expansion properties as well as their excellent thermal conductivity are virtually unchanged. This design allows heat to be dissipated quickly and efficiently. The piston is also made from an aluminum alloy. The piston alloy is slightly different and expands slightly less than the Nikasil cylinder. This combination of cylinder treatment and matched cylinder and piston materials creates an extremely seize resistant environment. This is also why Hirth engines can handle cylinder head temperatures of over 600 degrees F. without failure. Although the Nikasil process is very expensive, the resulting increase in the engines life span, performance, and reliability more than offsets the cost.
_____________________________
Hirth Engine Modelshttp://www.mt-llc.com/technology/index.shtml
Please be sure to read this artical as well:http://www.mt-llc.com/technology/98w...ch_article.pdf
A relatively new technology for smaller sized engines. NikasilTM is the trade name for German piston maker, Mahle'sTM patented nickel-silicon oxide cylinder plating, and plating process. This Technology was developed, in 1970, by MahleTM, with Porsche AGTM. It replaces, and is far superior to, sleeved and hard-chromed cylinder walls. Why?
Cylinder Walls are literally impregnated with silicon, resulting in a super low coefficient of friction, thus reducing engine heat and wear. Piston and cylinder expand at the same rate, thus, creating a seizure-resistent engine.
Lower friction also means easier and quicker engine starts.
Engines run cooler and with less vibration.
GroundhogTM engine temperatures were compared, (at 7,000 rpm) to other brands, (hard chromed), the result... Groundhog 41TM engines averaged 285°F, the others averaged 310°F.
Interesting trivia...The majority of Formula 1™ racecars use NikasilTM plated cylinders, including drivers David Coulthard and Mika Hakinen, and their Mercedes BenzTM, as well as Rubens Barrichelo and Michael Schumacher and their FerrariTM.
_____________________________
www.rpmsbigbore.com
Our plating and finish work is the best in the industry. Our repeat customers include FMF, Pro Circuit, White Brothers, YOT, Team Green, Factory Kawasaki/ Suzuki /Honda/Yamaha race teams and R+D Departments, Yamaha and TM warranty departments, ATK, NCY, Bills Pipes, Noleen Racing, AC Racing, Hinson Racing, Chapparral, MSR, Wiseco, JM Racing, MTC, Z-Racing, Yoshimura......and many dealers and race teams throughout the world.
Why nikasil and not a sleeve?
A: Nikasil lasts much longer, dissipates heat better, matches the ports better and makes more power. The only modern MX bikes that still use sleeves are the CR-500 and RM-80. Both are a dozen-or-so year old designs. Nikasil is used in all other MX bikes, all BMW motorcycles, Most Porsche, BMW and Mercedes cars, most outboards, the top of the line Snowmobiles and Personal Watercraft also run nikasil cylinders. FZR's, GSXR's and soon American cars are converting to nikasil.
_____________________________
Porsche 901 Engine Series http://www.ramaircraft.com/
NASCAR Winston Cup, BMW, and Porsche!
from 9,600 cylinders delivered during the past five years. Engine Components, Inc. ( ECi ) offers us a proprietary nickel and silicon carbide composite applied to the bores of their PMA new cylinders.
We use either their PMA new cylinders, or we have them apply their composite to the new OEM cylinders we use.
Following are quotes from Engine Builder Magazine, Nov. ‘02, Vol. 39, No.1. The Smooth Science of Cylinder Honing, by Technical Editor, Larry Carley. He notes:
“In recent years, Nikasil™ cylinder bore coatings have provided a [honing] challenge for engine builders. Nikasil™ is a hard coating of nickel and silicon carbide about .0025” to .003” thick, applied to cylinder bores to improve wear resistance.”
“Invented by the German firm Mahle, Nikasil was originally developed for the Mercedes ****el rotary engine. It has been used by BMW and Porsche in some of their engines, and is also used in some motorcycle and marine engines, and even many NASCAR Winston Cup engines.”
Kiebler explains,“NASCAR Winston Cup shops are using Nikasil™ cylinders. If it's good for NASCAR, it's not going to be long before you start seeing it in OEM engines.”
These industry icons of engine performance are using Nickel/Silicon Carbide cylinder bores to achieve durability, referred to as Nikasil.™ From experience, they know that cylinder bore quality plays a huge role in reducing friction and blow-by for improved engine performance and durability, and they are not in a position to be wrong about cylinder performance.
RAM has achieved durability too! No premature wear or corrosion
_____________________________
http://www.electrobuild.mb.ca/page2.html.
A coated cylinder was brought into the production of snowmobile engines for many reasons. i.e.: tighter tolerances, better wear resistance, exceptional oil retention, high temperature resistance, better coefficient of expansion with aluminum cylinders. All in all you get better performance than a cast sleeve.
_____________________________
www.walkerjet.com Nicasil is an expensive technology used for coating the cylinders of only the best quality engines on the market. It is far superior to sleeved and hard-chromed cylinder walls. It is a coating made up of nickel and silicon carbide. The Nicasil coating is very hard and durable thus providing a very long wearing surface for the piston and rings. Also the silicon carbide particles that are dispersed throughout the nickel form a multitude of adhesion spots on which oil can collect. This is another reason that engines with Nicasil coated cylinders last longer because of having improved cylinder lubrication. Also because the Nicasil coating literally impregnates the cylinder walls with silicon the result is a super low coefficient of friction, thus reducing engine heat and wear. Engines with Nicasil coated cylinders run cooler and with less vibration. Lower friction also means easier and quicker engine starts. Also an additional benefit is that the piston and cylinder expand at the same rate, thus, creating a very seizure-resistant engine. In racing two strokes both Morbidelli and Rotax have had great success with Nicasil and it is used in the most expensive professional grade chain saws. Porsche uses Nicasil in their turbocharged 917-935 series of race cars. In fact the majority of Formula 1 race cars use engines with Nicasil coated cylinders. Although the Nicasil process is very expensive, the resulting increase in the engines life span, performance and reliability more than offsets the cost. That is why WalkerJet only uses engines on their paramotors that have Nicasil coated cylinders.
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Harpers Moto Guzzi www.harpermotoguzzi.com/parts.htm
Why have your cylinders Nikasiled? You get much better results than with the steel sleeves. Nikasil dissipates heat much more efficiently than steel. The cylinder walls are treated with the special Nikasil electroplating. Nikasil coated cylinders have a hardend surface that cannot peel and is more wear resistant than the steel sleeves.
Although the Nikasil process is expensive, the resulting increase in the cylinders life span, performance and reliability more than offset the cost.
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Let's talk about cylinders www.recpower.com/hirth.htm
Most engines on the market today are built with steel sleeve cylinders. Although steel sleeves are less expensive than Nikasil, steel cannot dissipate heat as efficiently as aluminum and expands at a slower rate. As the heat in a steel sleeve cylinder engine increases the piston expands faster than the cylinder wall, steadily decreasing the piston clearance. To compensate for this, engines utilizing steel sleeve cylinders, must run lower CHT and EGT temperatures. Hirths' cylinders are of aluminum alloy; there are no sleeves. The cylinder walls have been treated with the patented Nikasil process. Nikasil coated cylinders have a hardened surface that cannot peel and is more wear resistant than steel sleeves. Because the cylinders are still an aluminum alloy, their expansion properties as well as their excellent thermal conductivity are virtually unchanged. This design allows heat to be dissipated quickly and efficiently. The piston is also made from an aluminum alloy. The piston alloy is slightly different and expands slightly less than the Nikasil cylinder. This combination of cylinder treatment and matched cylinder and piston materials creates an extremely seize resistant environment. This is also why Hirth engines can handle cylinder head temperatures of over 600 degrees F. without failure. Although the Nikasil process is very expensive, the resulting increase in the engines life span, performance, and reliability more than offsets the cost.
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Hirth Engine Modelshttp://www.mt-llc.com/technology/index.shtml
Please be sure to read this artical as well:http://www.mt-llc.com/technology/98w...ch_article.pdf
06-23-17, 03:51 PM
#36
I wish I was driving!
I don't see machining flat steel plates as inserts, being held against an aluminum housing only by the rotor housing and tension bolts as being a feasible. You will be applying varying amounts of heat and friction to one face of a relatively thin piece of steel while uniformly cooling the opposite face. It will warp and create high spots.
There have been plenty of discussions and many designs of this over the years. I am yet to see one be successful in real world use.
The metal faces have to be attached to the coolant channels.
... so with steel liners, your only hope would be something like maching dovetails into the backside of the iron plates, and then casting the aluminum around it.
Think about the rotor housings: same scenario. Mazda didn't just machine aluminum housibgs and then press in a steel liner; they machined grooves into the steel and then cast the aluminum housings around the liner. This is well documented in the SAE papers.
As for increasing displacement and then sayjng mazda has done the testing for you... engine build clearances change with altering the width of the rotor and housing.
This would require building and testing several hundred engines at different clearances over thousands of kilometers to get right.
A guy and his friend with their hobby machine shop and one test mule vehicle cannot achieve this. You would need an engine brake, countless hours, a team of engineers, and an extremely healthy budget.
There have been plenty of discussions and many designs of this over the years. I am yet to see one be successful in real world use.
The metal faces have to be attached to the coolant channels.
... so with steel liners, your only hope would be something like maching dovetails into the backside of the iron plates, and then casting the aluminum around it.
Think about the rotor housings: same scenario. Mazda didn't just machine aluminum housibgs and then press in a steel liner; they machined grooves into the steel and then cast the aluminum housings around the liner. This is well documented in the SAE papers.
As for increasing displacement and then sayjng mazda has done the testing for you... engine build clearances change with altering the width of the rotor and housing.
This would require building and testing several hundred engines at different clearances over thousands of kilometers to get right.
A guy and his friend with their hobby machine shop and one test mule vehicle cannot achieve this. You would need an engine brake, countless hours, a team of engineers, and an extremely healthy budget.
06-23-17, 04:04 PM
#37
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
Post 35 has the answer, no steel liner in the housing, use Nikasil. I fail to see why it wouldn't work on an aluminum side housing if it was developed for the rotary engine and has been used for years to coat aluminum piston engine cylinder bores in many high end cars.
Last edited by TonyD89; 06-23-17 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Correction.
06-23-17, 05:33 PM
#38
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
tony, i wasn't arguing either. I just wanted to elucidate my position:
first, I would love to spend some time, resources, and money to copy rare rotary parts which have been skyrocketing in price. they are just machined hunk of metal whose dimensions are right there. I personally want to do it because I think it'll be fun and would provide nice deductions for workshop I'm building.
second, my initial focus is to provide accurate CAD of front/rear/intermediate housings, rotor, rotor housings, and e-shaft. I want to focus on 3 rotor parts because I think 2 rotor parts are still very plentiful without being too expensive in the second hand market.
third, I want to play with CNC to mill a few plates, and install them.
fourth, my primitive thinking is if we have CAD of forementioned parts, I can see how I can just lengthen rotor width, corresponding housing and eccentric lobe width to increase displacement for 2 rotor engines. I would have to source longer apex seal somehow and that's still the unknown for me. 3 rotor with increased displacement would be too long for most sensible install IMHO. about your ideas of altering geometry, I simply lack the expertise and resources to increase the displacement any other way. if you want to take a shot, I would love that. that's pretty much the story. it wasn't about denouncing your ideas. I just want to make it clear it's not something I want to tackle.
first, I would love to spend some time, resources, and money to copy rare rotary parts which have been skyrocketing in price. they are just machined hunk of metal whose dimensions are right there. I personally want to do it because I think it'll be fun and would provide nice deductions for workshop I'm building.
second, my initial focus is to provide accurate CAD of front/rear/intermediate housings, rotor, rotor housings, and e-shaft. I want to focus on 3 rotor parts because I think 2 rotor parts are still very plentiful without being too expensive in the second hand market.
third, I want to play with CNC to mill a few plates, and install them.
fourth, my primitive thinking is if we have CAD of forementioned parts, I can see how I can just lengthen rotor width, corresponding housing and eccentric lobe width to increase displacement for 2 rotor engines. I would have to source longer apex seal somehow and that's still the unknown for me. 3 rotor with increased displacement would be too long for most sensible install IMHO. about your ideas of altering geometry, I simply lack the expertise and resources to increase the displacement any other way. if you want to take a shot, I would love that. that's pretty much the story. it wasn't about denouncing your ideas. I just want to make it clear it's not something I want to tackle.
I have an idea to make a long side seal from factory Mazda ones
The trochoid shape is easy in solid works. Unfortunately, I do not have a seat or access to one. Once a solid model is done, the CNC does the rest.
06-23-17, 07:26 PM
#39
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
I believe, originally, yes. I honestly don't know what technical refinement in the technology has happened since then. Just read post 35. Apparently, it's gotten better. I can't believe these high end auto producers are using carbon rings.
06-30-17, 03:49 PM
#40
spoon!
Oh hey, interesting timing.
I'm working on Solidworks design of some short crank 3-rotor parts - same general scheme as the other aftermarket ones, but with an extra center bearing. Actually copying more the old MPS idea of using an additional Mazda main bearing rather than the Aussie idea of using needle bearings. Got distracted by banging out the start of a tube chassis design though.
The tricky bit with the E-shaft is that at the end of the day it's going to have to be hardened (nitrided by my preferences but that'll vary with material) and final ground.
Another cool project would be roller barrel throttle bodies, as there's not many you can actually buy. Or even flat slides.
I'm working on Solidworks design of some short crank 3-rotor parts - same general scheme as the other aftermarket ones, but with an extra center bearing. Actually copying more the old MPS idea of using an additional Mazda main bearing rather than the Aussie idea of using needle bearings. Got distracted by banging out the start of a tube chassis design though.
The tricky bit with the E-shaft is that at the end of the day it's going to have to be hardened (nitrided by my preferences but that'll vary with material) and final ground.
Another cool project would be roller barrel throttle bodies, as there's not many you can actually buy. Or even flat slides.
06-30-17, 04:13 PM
#41
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
I've been working on a two piece plain bearing design for a center bearing. I believe that center bearings have problems because of the loose fit of the dowels in the end plates. I've done this and anyone else can try it. Loosely put a stack together and twist the unfixed back and forth. There is a bit of play there. It varies on the age and condition of the plates but, some of the dowel sockets in the end plates can get pretty worn and I think this is the reason behind some that have been unimpressed and/or had problems.. I think I have a solution.
06-30-17, 05:29 PM
#42
spoon!
I tend to think that using needle bearings is a step in the wrong direction too. On the short crank design I was working on, I had just figured to cut the gordian knot and do close fitting studs too plus a structural dry sump plate.
06-30-17, 10:31 PM
#43
Red Pill Dealer
iTrader: (10)
My pursuit is not RPM like the needle bearing guys, it's to continue the lightening of rotating mass. I believe there is much to be gained here even though many will say that since it's not at the outward end of the spinning assembly, it doesn't matter. Well, Mazda lightened the shaft for the MSP engine and I have a hard time thinking they did it for ***** and grins. I believe controlled e-shaft flex from a center bearing could lead to closer tolerances in the rotor chamber and better rotor gas sealing.
I have my ideas...
I have my ideas...
07-06-17, 02:47 PM
#45
Interesting! I've been dabbling with the same sort of stuff. One part being aluminium housings (started on a intermediate one, have yet to start on front and rear ones), because I want tro try and build a 4-rotor that isn't a full PP. The dimensions as a normal 13B intermediate housing, but with large ports, and made so it can be machined on a regular 3-axis mill.
If anyone is interested, I added the solidworks and .step files in the attachment, but should someone modify the design, please let me know what was changed and why, since I'm all open to improvements.
If anyone is interested, I added the solidworks and .step files in the attachment, but should someone modify the design, please let me know what was changed and why, since I'm all open to improvements.
10-05-20, 07:43 AM
#46
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Join Date: Oct 2019
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Interesting! I've been dabbling with the same sort of stuff. One part being aluminium housings (started on a intermediate one, have yet to start on front and rear ones), because I want tro try and build a 4-rotor that isn't a full PP. The dimensions as a normal 13B intermediate housing, but with large ports, and made so it can be machined on a regular 3-axis mill.
If anyone is interested, I added the solidworks and .step files in the attachment, but should someone modify the design, please let me know what was changed and why, since I'm all open to improvements.
If anyone is interested, I added the solidworks and .step files in the attachment, but should someone modify the design, please let me know what was changed and why, since I'm all open to improvements.
I'm really interested into creating a custom rotor housing, and I fully agree with should open source all these models <3