Using??

 

^ ??? Read my previous comments. I guoted myself so it would be easy to follow what I'm talking about.

 

been running the self cut viton seals for 5 months in the SC heat. and have intentionally overheated the engine twice ( disconnected the e-fan) everything is in the green. Love these seals.

 

Talking about the ones for the outers? The 2mm square ring?

 

round ones.

 

Bringing from the death

http://be02.rs-online.com/web/p/seals-o-rings/0689524/ could probaly also work fine for the tension bolts. There is stated 80 degC, but Nitrile rubber is usually rated slightly higher.. would come down to 9 euro per engine

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents...6b80febebe.pdf

 

Just received some McC/Carr 9679k12 round 2.0mm o-ring for the outers. Well they seam to small.

and the 94245k52 o-ring 2.4mm round stock looks like they will fit just right for the outers. They are a bit to small as inner seals. Anyone try these?


Ordering 2542t21 square as suggested for the inners.

 

Has anyone tried the .103 round for the inner water seals? mccastercarr # 96515k42

thanks

 

use the recommend round 2.0 outer and 2.4 inner sizes, specify viton for the inner , use my posted lengths ... and all is fine


they may not fill the whole groove widths.. at recommended lengths
740 mm for inner,, 930 mm for outer
you install the seal to the outside edge of the water groove, dont be afraid to put rtv ( sparingly ) at the join or to help hold the seals in place
compression under the plates will make the seals fill the track correctly ,, and amounts to forcing the cut/join ends together under compression.. making the glue dab secondary


i use this in my daily FC .... no problems long term.... and im in the equiv to texas temperatures and run a hotter fuel.. LPG

 

So far so good with the McMasterCarr water seals. Not a daily driver though, but have done around 30 1/4 mile passes. 25/33 psi, highest water temp has been 180f. Usually keep the water temp around 160f.

No RTV. super glued the ends together and used vaseline to hold the seals in the groove to assemble the motor. Used the round 2mm outer and 2.4mm for inner seals.

 

Here is a honest review of what rotary aviation telon encapsolated combustion o rings look like after 2 years of turbo high speed highway abuse. They are hard and began to leak water into the engine after about 20,000 miles. The water temps on this engine never exceeded 95c and generally ran in the 80's.

I have used pineapples seals and rotary avaition. I feel neither were as good as what mazda offers.

In MM the mesure was 1.67mm and 3.11mm, so that how much they squish down and mis shape.

 

Just disassemble the motor after three months with the McMasterCarr water seals.

The outer 2mm are now 1.6mm and the inner 2.4mm ones are now 2.25mm, The round ones. Ordering some more. The ends were still glued together from the super glue. Did not use any RTV only vaseline.

Had no problems with the water seals. Motor was taken apart because the blow by was just a tad to much. Found a side seal stuck, repeated 10600rpms in first and second gear is to much for not clearancing. Around 60 1/4 mile passes at 28psi and a few at 30+.

 

wait a little longer and watch how squared off the encapsulated seals become, then the squared edges will begin to chafe through the teflon skirting. definitely not a seal that is going to last as long as the OEM seals but they are much more reusable than OEM seals are. i run them but only in engines that are periodically broken down for inspection or used for racing purposes only that don't see a ton of miles.

 

Just to add to this. Just tried both outer and inner seals in there groves and the inner ones still fit perfect. The out ones shrunk just enough were they will not stay in there grove. Not reusable. The inner ones are still good to reuse IMO.

 

those encapsulated seals are pure garbage for heat cycled engines. just pulled apart one with about 3-4k on it and there was a chunk of the teflon skirt missing..

 

What are you guys torqing your motors at? I've been using ra orings for a lot of my customers builds and my own.. I've been torqing the tension rods at 33lbs. Reason for this is one engine we built torqued to 29lbs did not hold coolant pressure on the pineapple tester, it was a slow leak, but a leak nonetheless.. I retorqued the motor to 33lbs and it held . The customer has over 15000 miles on it and still running.. One thing I think we should remember is how old these tension bolts are. The book says 23-29lbs, but those numbers are when the tension bolts were new. Once they are torqued the bolts stretch and lose their clamping force,especially their old and Each time they are reused.. I have been running my 400whp race 13b for 2 seasons with no issues, when I took the motor apart to go full bridge the inners were flattened, but I didn't see any tearage or damage..
just my theory... Hope this info helps

 

10lbs, 20lbs then 32lbs. The first torque setting is the most important. imo

 

Finger tight, then wrist tight, then 10 - 15 - 23ft-lb. Then I stop there.

High torque crushes the rotor housings when the engine runs hot.

Tension bolts get wire wheeled, and the front housing gets all of the holes cleaned out with a 10x1.0 bolt that I added two flutes to on the corner of a bench grinder. Not a tap! Taps make threads, I just want to clean the debris out of the existing ones.

 

Tq to about 28ft/lbs. I slowly raise the tq in about 5 lbs incerments till I get desired #'s.

Wire wheel the entire tension rod, chase out the threads in the housing, oil the threads before I tq them in sequence.

 

overtightening is a placebo for the corrosion and uneven wear in the engine. basically you're tightening the engine enough that the rotor housing to iron seal is doing half the job.

regardless, i've still seen the encapsulated seals tear in short periods of time for no good apparent reason. in other cases i have seen them work perfectly for many years, it's a crap shoot and usually boils down to the condition of parts used, pitting and uneven wear present even when within factory spec.

 

RotE. that's that second time you mentioned the encapsulated seals. Think we're on to something different now.

Torqued 100 or more motor to 30lbs, no issues or complaints. Maybe just lucky.

 

if it is on viton seals now, perhaps a new thread should be made.

too difficult to tell since it has migrated and some people referring to various seals and issues with them.

and the issue with some vitons is butting them, cyanoacrylic only has a working temperature range of 200F before it breaks down. vulcanizing it(hot bonding) can be costly but is the most effective method of retaining the 400F working temperature of the material.

 

The seals only need to be glued together as an expedient for assembly.

When I was building engines with 18-gauge electrical wire, I'd leave a gap up to 1/4" and use silicone. Never had an issue related to the joint. (Having trouble getting good tension bolt torque because of dirty threads, and then starting the car when it was 10F outside, however, quickly resulted in burnt seals. On disassembly, some of the tension bolts had NO torque on them. And so did peejay begin to be ****-retentive about clean threads)

 

it is more for those who aren't using sealant, most silicone sealants have a bit higher working temperature than super glue. if the bond ever breaks the joint could open up if using just vaseline or some other lubricant to hold the seals in place. some cheaper super glues have less cyanoacrylic content which lowers the working temperature to the bare minimum of 180F before it begins to break down, maybe even less.

 

No sealant... I'd only trust that when using new components, not corroded old stuff or even used parts that have the characteristic pitting around the edges of the coolant seal track.

But I see what you mean.