Exhaust Sleeve Removal?
10-13-02, 07:01 AM
#1
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Exhaust Sleeve Removal?
Has anyone hot any bright idears how to get the Exhaust sleeves out of a Rotor housing?
Also while i'm hear does any one know the diffrence between a 13b-rew and 13bt Sleeve?
Thanks.
Also while i'm hear does any one know the diffrence between a 13b-rew and 13bt Sleeve?
Thanks.
10-13-02, 10:39 AM
#2
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I've herd of people grinding them from the inside out. Grind the inside of the port till you see the roll pin then knock it through from the other side. But of course that will only work if you don't care about the sleeve that is comming out.
10-13-02, 03:52 PM
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What I have thought about trying is threading a small tap into the roll pin. Then runnung a fine thread hardened bolt into it until it bottoms out against the wall of the exhaust port. Be sure to WD40 the pissed out of the pin. Put some pressure against the bolt and then tap the top of the bolt with a hammer lightly. It is the same principal as a gear puller. Granted it might not work but it would be worth a try if you want to salvage the port.
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10-13-02, 08:44 PM
#8
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Okay, here is what works. This actually bothered me enough to try to figure it out.
Notice the "tap & drill kit" has a 7/64" drill for the 6-32 tap. We are tapping hardeded steel so get a 1/8" bit or you will break the tap. (guess how I know?) DO NOT GET A CHEAP TAP OR DRILL BIT LIKE IN THE PICTURE!!! Even being really careful I broke the cheesy *** tap on another housing after I took these pictures.
Home Depot was the only place open on Sunday and I did not have a 6-32 tap or I would have had a top qualty tap. I will the next time. So you guys let my mistake teach you. Go to a tool supply like Grainger and get the best you can get. These taps are small so you can get a really high quality tap for $12.00. A top notch 1/8" bit is cheap too because it is a very common size.
Once a tap or bit breaks in the roll pin you have to go through the backside to get it out unless you are really good with a die grinder. Be patient and go very slow when tapping the roll pin. Twist it in some and turn it back out working it in just a LITTLE more each time. You don't need to go but about 3/16" deep with the threads if possible. You can probably get by with less. I would recommend the best tap you can buy. A cheap tap will definately break easier.
I know that most of you already know all of this but keep in mind that some people that read this may not. Scratch my first post I figured out that was pretty stupid as far as the way I suggested to extract the pin.
(Note: everything in parenthesis is to people who already know what's going on and me just reminding them to be patient)
Okay this is what you need:
1) PATIENCE!
2) WD40 or equivalent/better
3) 6-32 tap made for stainless
4) 1/8" drill bit for stainless
5) 6-32 X 1" or longer socket head screw
6) 1/8" flat washer
7) 1/4" I.D. X 1/2" long steel spacer
8) 6-32 stainless steel nut (a mild steel may strip)
9) hex wrench
Here is the procedure-
1) spray the **** out of the pin with penetrant
2) tap the pin with previously mentioned technique
3) put spacer over roll pin being careful to center it, if an edge gets above the pin as the pin is coming up it will hit the spacer and stop (I know that's stupid, but...)
4) Thread the nut all the way on the screw
5) Put the washer on the screw
6) Thread the screw into the pin and tighten it just a LITTLE snug. (The more you try to tighten into an unthreaded portion of the pin the more the pin will try to expand and make it even harder to remove (I know, but....)
7) Leave the hex wrench on the socket screw.
8) Tighten the NUT with a wrench while holding screw still with hex key.
9) Tighten until pin comes out.
10) Clean your dad's tools and put them back where you got them! (
)
The pics are a little blurry, but you can tell what is going on.
Notice the "tap & drill kit" has a 7/64" drill for the 6-32 tap. We are tapping hardeded steel so get a 1/8" bit or you will break the tap. (guess how I know?) DO NOT GET A CHEAP TAP OR DRILL BIT LIKE IN THE PICTURE!!! Even being really careful I broke the cheesy *** tap on another housing after I took these pictures.
Home Depot was the only place open on Sunday and I did not have a 6-32 tap or I would have had a top qualty tap. I will the next time. So you guys let my mistake teach you. Go to a tool supply like Grainger and get the best you can get. These taps are small so you can get a really high quality tap for $12.00. A top notch 1/8" bit is cheap too because it is a very common size.
Once a tap or bit breaks in the roll pin you have to go through the backside to get it out unless you are really good with a die grinder. Be patient and go very slow when tapping the roll pin. Twist it in some and turn it back out working it in just a LITTLE more each time. You don't need to go but about 3/16" deep with the threads if possible. You can probably get by with less. I would recommend the best tap you can buy. A cheap tap will definately break easier.
I know that most of you already know all of this but keep in mind that some people that read this may not. Scratch my first post I figured out that was pretty stupid as far as the way I suggested to extract the pin.
(Note: everything in parenthesis is to people who already know what's going on and me just reminding them to be patient)
Okay this is what you need:
1) PATIENCE!
2) WD40 or equivalent/better
3) 6-32 tap made for stainless
4) 1/8" drill bit for stainless
5) 6-32 X 1" or longer socket head screw
6) 1/8" flat washer
7) 1/4" I.D. X 1/2" long steel spacer
8) 6-32 stainless steel nut (a mild steel may strip)
9) hex wrench
Here is the procedure-
1) spray the **** out of the pin with penetrant
2) tap the pin with previously mentioned technique
3) put spacer over roll pin being careful to center it, if an edge gets above the pin as the pin is coming up it will hit the spacer and stop (I know that's stupid, but...)
4) Thread the nut all the way on the screw
5) Put the washer on the screw
6) Thread the screw into the pin and tighten it just a LITTLE snug. (The more you try to tighten into an unthreaded portion of the pin the more the pin will try to expand and make it even harder to remove (I know, but....)
7) Leave the hex wrench on the socket screw.
8) Tighten the NUT with a wrench while holding screw still with hex key.
9) Tighten until pin comes out.
10) Clean your dad's tools and put them back where you got them! (
)The pics are a little blurry, but you can tell what is going on.
Last edited by Scalliwag; 10-13-02 at 08:46 PM.
10-13-02, 09:23 PM
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WingmaN
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Odds are damn good some of you are going to break a tap. Here are a few things to try before scrapping the sleeve from the inside. I will list the easiest ideas I know and go towards the hardest.
If you do break a tap and you are lucky that enough is sticking out, you may be able to grab it and thread it back out. Common sense tells you that. Odds are better that it will be flush on the surface.
Another thing to try is get a small round punch and try hitting the broke tap further in. Sometimes they will fragment and you can will have enough room to get the fragment down far enough that you can get another tap in.
If that fails whip out a die grinder with a small bit. Try to avoid getting into the aluminum.
If you do break a tap and you are lucky that enough is sticking out, you may be able to grab it and thread it back out. Common sense tells you that. Odds are better that it will be flush on the surface.
Another thing to try is get a small round punch and try hitting the broke tap further in. Sometimes they will fragment and you can will have enough room to get the fragment down far enough that you can get another tap in.
If that fails whip out a die grinder with a small bit. Try to avoid getting into the aluminum.
10-13-02, 09:57 PM
#11
WingmaN
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Damn, you don't know the half of it. Go to my thread on resufacing housings https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=4
Scroll down and look at the pictures. Getting freaking roll pin out is a welcome project for me right now.
This stuff is a blast though!
Scroll down and look at the pictures. Getting freaking roll pin out is a welcome project for me right now.
This stuff is a blast though!
10-14-02, 02:01 AM
#12
Old [Sch|F]ool
I have been unable to do more than NICK the roll pins. Good job on that!
I was using a seal remover trying to get a grip in the roll pin, no dice whatsoever. These are just slide hammers with a screw in the end.
I was using a seal remover trying to get a grip in the roll pin, no dice whatsoever. These are just slide hammers with a screw in the end.
10-14-02, 06:11 AM
#13
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The reason things like screw extractors and slide hammers would not work even if you did get "dug-in" is because it tries to expand the pin even further. It causes it to work against itself. The entire physics of it is just wrong.
When you thread the pin and put a screw in, there is very little if any side force. The threads act as a gripping mechanism. By using the nut over the washer/sleeve it pulls directly up with an equal force avoiding binding in the hole.
As long as you are threaded in deep enough that the force to extract the pin is not greater than the force to pull the screw out of the threads you are in business.
Physics is "the ****"! Physics is your friend and it don't call you from jail at 3am either!
My first post that I said I thought about trying to thread a roll pin and then run the screw all the way to the bottom and trying to force it out was so deeply flawed it is embarrassing. Even if you were able to thread that far down as the screw forced against the port wall the pin would try to spin before it tried to come out. There would not be a practical way to keep that from happening. The reason you could not even get that far is because the deeped you get into that hard *** roll pin the more surface tension you get on the tap and SNAP! Also, the tap would bottom out against the port wall leaving an unthreaded portion of the roll pin, once you got into the unthreaded area the screw would break before it even made the pin flinch.
Okay so I worry about **** too much! Just remember to think deep about physics when dealing with all problems that are not related to women and the odds are good if your theory is solid you will be in great shape at the end of the day.
After I find a fool proof way of doing this I will let you guys know. Or if someone else has another way to get them out without damaging the sleeve or housing that would be nice.
Those roll pins are so hard I am not certain that most people will not break taps and drill bits. One reason is because they either will not get strong enough taps and drill bits or the people selling them will convince them that an inferior tap will work. If there is not something either on the packaging that says the tap is designed for stainless steel and hardened metal I would not get it. People that sell this **** don't always know what they are talking about. They think just because it is stronger than a Taiwan tap it will do the job.
I know Greeleaf makes some really nice taps, but they make standard taps that will not work also. When I say they will not work is not real accurate. If you are careful you might get lucky, odds are not in your favor. Do I talk like a guy that was not being careful when I broke a tap? Be sure to use a small tap handle. A large one will deceive you because of the extra leverage. IF you only have a larger tap handle use one hand directly over the top of the tap so you can tell how much force you are applying to the tap at all times.
If you break a tap after reading all this blathering by me you are pretty much hopeless!
If you do not have a good tool supply local or if they have crazyass high prices you can go to https://www.jlindustrial.com/Search/...IK=OTH%2D25124 If you have J&L Industrial Supplies current catalog it is on page 226.
If you look at a drill size chart it will call for a #34 as being the largest drill bit to use. We are not trying to thread something to spec, we want to just get the thing out and take as little chance of breaking a tap as possible. So get a 1/8" drill bit as stated earlier. Even when "counter boy" tells you it is not the right bit.
It is also a good idea not to tighten the drill bit up all the way in the chuck when drilling . When the bit grabs you want the chuck to spin on the bit instead of the bit breaking. There is a very fine line between to tight and too loose, kind of like with girlfriends. You want them to put out, but only to you!
Damn I tired guys. I got Linux class all freaking week.
I will try real hard to make some sense next time I post! No really I will!
When you thread the pin and put a screw in, there is very little if any side force. The threads act as a gripping mechanism. By using the nut over the washer/sleeve it pulls directly up with an equal force avoiding binding in the hole.
As long as you are threaded in deep enough that the force to extract the pin is not greater than the force to pull the screw out of the threads you are in business.
Physics is "the ****"! Physics is your friend and it don't call you from jail at 3am either!
My first post that I said I thought about trying to thread a roll pin and then run the screw all the way to the bottom and trying to force it out was so deeply flawed it is embarrassing. Even if you were able to thread that far down as the screw forced against the port wall the pin would try to spin before it tried to come out. There would not be a practical way to keep that from happening. The reason you could not even get that far is because the deeped you get into that hard *** roll pin the more surface tension you get on the tap and SNAP! Also, the tap would bottom out against the port wall leaving an unthreaded portion of the roll pin, once you got into the unthreaded area the screw would break before it even made the pin flinch.
Okay so I worry about **** too much! Just remember to think deep about physics when dealing with all problems that are not related to women and the odds are good if your theory is solid you will be in great shape at the end of the day.
After I find a fool proof way of doing this I will let you guys know. Or if someone else has another way to get them out without damaging the sleeve or housing that would be nice.
Those roll pins are so hard I am not certain that most people will not break taps and drill bits. One reason is because they either will not get strong enough taps and drill bits or the people selling them will convince them that an inferior tap will work. If there is not something either on the packaging that says the tap is designed for stainless steel and hardened metal I would not get it. People that sell this **** don't always know what they are talking about. They think just because it is stronger than a Taiwan tap it will do the job.
I know Greeleaf makes some really nice taps, but they make standard taps that will not work also. When I say they will not work is not real accurate. If you are careful you might get lucky, odds are not in your favor. Do I talk like a guy that was not being careful when I broke a tap? Be sure to use a small tap handle. A large one will deceive you because of the extra leverage. IF you only have a larger tap handle use one hand directly over the top of the tap so you can tell how much force you are applying to the tap at all times.
If you break a tap after reading all this blathering by me you are pretty much hopeless!
If you do not have a good tool supply local or if they have crazyass high prices you can go to https://www.jlindustrial.com/Search/...IK=OTH%2D25124 If you have J&L Industrial Supplies current catalog it is on page 226.
If you look at a drill size chart it will call for a #34 as being the largest drill bit to use. We are not trying to thread something to spec, we want to just get the thing out and take as little chance of breaking a tap as possible. So get a 1/8" drill bit as stated earlier. Even when "counter boy" tells you it is not the right bit.
It is also a good idea not to tighten the drill bit up all the way in the chuck when drilling . When the bit grabs you want the chuck to spin on the bit instead of the bit breaking. There is a very fine line between to tight and too loose, kind of like with girlfriends. You want them to put out, but only to you!
Damn I tired guys. I got Linux class all freaking week.
I will try real hard to make some sense next time I post! No really I will!
Last edited by Scalliwag; 10-14-02 at 06:14 AM.
10-14-02, 11:21 PM
#14
WingmaN
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This should work great for "drilling" out the hole. It is a 1/8" carbide tapered burr. A lot less chance of breaking than a drill bit and you will be able to use the burr for all sorts of other projects. Take a look at it https://www.jlindustrial.com/Search/...IK=KDB%2D17878
J&L Industrial has free shipping too (except for really big items)
J&L Industrial has free shipping too (except for really big items)
Scalliwag 
10-15-02, 06:30 PM
#16
WingmaN
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1/8" Cobalt drill bit- 72 cents
6-32 "steam Oxide" tap- $7.07
6-32 X 1" grade 8 socket head screw- 20 cents
6-32 stainless nut- 35 cents
1/8" fender washer- 7 cents
3/8" X 1/2" steel sleeve- 40 cents
SUCCESS!- PRICELESS!!!
Okay, anyone following this is probably wondering when/if I would ever really get this done and stay with it. Well it changed again. . I picked up a 1/8" cobalt drill bit and a 6-32 "steam oxide" tap made for stainless from M&H Equipment here in town. The total was $8.43 with tax. I had them pins drilled and tapped and pulled with no problems in less than 10 minutes! They didn't have a burring tool that would work so I decided to give it a shot.
The drill went into the pin real easy. I was still careful though.
Now I am convinced this is the way to go. Here is the pics of the results. Give this a try and let me know how it goes. It was fun!
6-32 "steam Oxide" tap- $7.07
6-32 X 1" grade 8 socket head screw- 20 cents
6-32 stainless nut- 35 cents
1/8" fender washer- 7 cents
3/8" X 1/2" steel sleeve- 40 cents
SUCCESS!- PRICELESS!!!
Okay, anyone following this is probably wondering when/if I would ever really get this done and stay with it. Well it changed again. . I picked up a 1/8" cobalt drill bit and a 6-32 "steam oxide" tap made for stainless from M&H Equipment here in town. The total was $8.43 with tax. I had them pins drilled and tapped and pulled with no problems in less than 10 minutes! They didn't have a burring tool that would work so I decided to give it a shot.
The drill went into the pin real easy. I was still careful though.
Now I am convinced this is the way to go. Here is the pics of the results. Give this a try and let me know how it goes. It was fun!
Last edited by Scalliwag; 10-15-02 at 06:43 PM.
10-29-02, 09:05 PM
#17
the drill and tap idea is a good one but takes way to much time and is a pain!!
Cobalt drill bits suck! and a tap that small is a pain
to use and not snap off.
the easy way of doing this is to use:
step 1 using a drill press drill down the pin with a
5/32nd CARBIDE BIT
step 2 with same drill press, drill down the pilot hole
you made in step 1 with a 3/16 CARBIDE BIT.
the pin will be easy to pick out once step 2 is done.
took me 3 mins to pull one sleeve compared to
trying to tap and pull the pins, with no risk of broken
taps stuck in pins.
my 2 cents
matt
ps. the carbide drill bits cut the spring steel
like it was aluminum. they are big $$ at 20.00 canadian
each but are worth every cent!
Cobalt drill bits suck! and a tap that small is a pain
to use and not snap off.
the easy way of doing this is to use:
step 1 using a drill press drill down the pin with a
5/32nd CARBIDE BIT
step 2 with same drill press, drill down the pilot hole
you made in step 1 with a 3/16 CARBIDE BIT.
the pin will be easy to pick out once step 2 is done.
took me 3 mins to pull one sleeve compared to
trying to tap and pull the pins, with no risk of broken
taps stuck in pins.
my 2 cents
matt
ps. the carbide drill bits cut the spring steel
like it was aluminum. they are big $$ at 20.00 canadian
each but are worth every cent!
10-29-02, 11:33 PM
#18
WingmaN
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I will try that at some point. I pulled out pins from 8 housings last week with my cheap *** drillbit. If I was cutting a bigger hole than a 1/8" I would probably have gone with a carbide. It only takes 1/64" off the pin. The tap it still like new. It can be done with a hand drill.
Maybe someone can try both ways and see what they like best. Since this worked for me I am not sure when I would get around to buying carbide bits. They are nice to have around though.
Maybe someone can try both ways and see what they like best. Since this worked for me I am not sure when I would get around to buying carbide bits. They are nice to have around though.
12-08-05, 09:54 AM
#20
If you have access to a welder, TIG or MIG, throw a bead on top of the pin and then using vise grips pull the pin out. If your good it takes all but a minute to pull both pins out of one housing. It takes longer to setup the welding machine. You can reuse the pins if you are putting the sleeve back in to a housing just grind off the little bit of weld you put on. And it doesn't warp the housing you can put your hand on the area of the pin right after you pull it out and it will not even be warm. Works for me and I've done this countless of times.
12-08-05, 02:47 PM
#21
Senior Member
Yeah I tried this about a month back and the slap hammer did nothing, The roll pin expansion defeats the purpose just as suspected. I tried the tap method but just couldn't get it to cut well enough to be comfortable. I've broken enough taps to know when they break, you will be pretty damn close to that line when tapping roll pins. I couldn't find my carbide cutters but I'm sure they have some potential.
I ended up grinding from the inside out then tig welded the removed metal back. I also filled the air injection holes and added a bead to the inner opening to match grind the sleeve to the housing. It all turned out really nice after porting and polishing.
pics can be seen on the thead here: https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/pics-rb-exhaust-street-port-6-port-478319/
and here (near the bottom of the page): https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/turbo-na-housing-difference-476862/
I ended up grinding from the inside out then tig welded the removed metal back. I also filled the air injection holes and added a bead to the inner opening to match grind the sleeve to the housing. It all turned out really nice after porting and polishing.
pics can be seen on the thead here: https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/pics-rb-exhaust-street-port-6-port-478319/
and here (near the bottom of the page): https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/turbo-na-housing-difference-476862/
Last edited by RXBeetle; 12-08-05 at 02:50 PM.
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