fastrotor30

have any of you guys noticed the way the nhra keeps penalizing the rotors in the all-motor class? its every year that they do it. it got me thinking, why dont they just do away with the rear wheel drives cars in the field. i'd rather see the nhra ban them, then to continually slap them in the face with these stupid rules changes which are meant to handicap the rotors.
they did it to ken scheepers last year. they changed the rules of the game when they knew ken was going to win the championship. and look what happened, he lost the championship by 8 freaking points.
this year when they seen that padilla came back with a vengance and leading in points, here came the nhra to the rescue, again helping the freaking fwd's.
the reason they said was "to keep the field more competitive" but ive check all of the qualifying rounds and elimination rounds in the all-motor class and padilla and mohler have never been more then .010 from each other. .010 i mean how much more competitive do they want it? i could understand maybe half a second, but damn .010????
and the funny thing is that scott mohler was bragging about his winning as if he doesnt know that its being handed to him. he says "There is no doubt that we are on top of our game right now and feel like we can win every race the rest of the season."
what he should be doing is thanking the nhra for all their help. he knows that without them he wouldnt be in the points lead.

since the nhra is all about competitive racing and all i wonder if the nhra will handicap the lucas solara now that hes running 7.4's and 7.5's. i e-mailed the nhra and told them that i expect to see new rule changes in the modified class that will allow the rx-7s of carlos sr. and carlos jr. to stay competitive.

its all about money and money only. if you feel the same way, let the nhra know that its pretty #$@# %^ what they are doing.

fdracer

it works both ways. they also have to handicap the 6cyl's in modified to keep the rotaries competitive. what they need to do is ban the rotaries from modified cuz they're just slowing the whole class down. the nhra keeps adding weight to the 6cyl. to the point that their's about a 1000 lb. weight difference btwn a 6 cyl. and a rotary. even w/ this disparity the rotaries still won't be competitive.

EricM

In the Modified class, the rotary can weigh 1900 lbs(2 rotor), but no FC or FD can weigh that much without going full tube frame. Carlos Gonzales' car weighs 2250 lbs I think from what I read.
In the All Motor class, it's different. Last year ken Scheepers was in the same position as Jesus P right now, he's battling Mohler at every race and they're super close(like within 0.1 sec) all the time, look at what they did last year, same damn thing. You're also forgetting the fact that these FWD All Motor can be tube frame but not the RWD.
If NHRA wants to be fair, don't decrease the min weight for the rotary increase the weight of the inline 6 by 200 # instead of 100 # and stop favoring the damn Dodge. You gotta see the connection of Dodge(think Top Fuel) and NHRA do you ?

680RWHP12A

the modified rules are bullshit!! the front drive cars can be full tube chassis (example , jeremy lokosfsky) and the rear drive cars cant cut out any sheetmetal or they get disqualified!!! on top of the weight penalty!!! wtf?!!
the hondas can weigh 1,300lbs while the rotarys have to weigh 1,900+!! why?

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

RWD or AWD 2 rotor (1 or 2 power adders): 2,000 pounds RWD or AWD 4 cylinder, up to 2.8 liter (170.75 ci) (1 or 2 power adders): 2,100 pounds RWD or AWD 3 rotor (1 power adder): 2,700 pounds RWD or AWD 3 rotor (2 power adders): 2,900 pounds RWD or AWD 6 cylinder, up to 3.5 liter (213.50 ci) (1 power adder): 2,700 pounds RWD or AWD 6 cylinder, up to 3.5 liter (213.50 ci), (2 power adders, on gasoline only): 2,900 pounds

Are this the latest?

Nevermind, I found them:

MODIFIED
Page 44 (eff 07/02/04)
Minimum Weights:
RWD or AWD 2 rotor (1 or 2 power adders): change "2,000 pounds" to "1,900 pounds".
RWD or AWD 4 cylinder, up to 2.8 liter (170.75 ci)
(1 or 2 power adders): change "2,100 pounds" to "2,000 pounds".
RWD or AWD 6 cylinder, up to 3.5 liter (213.50 ci)
(1 power adder): change "2,700 pounds" to "2,800 pounds".
RWD or AWD 6 cylinder, up to 3.5 liter (213.50 ci)
(2 power adders): change "2,900 pounds, gasoline only" to "3,000 pounds, gasoline only".
Change "Non-OEM floor: add 100 pounds." To "Non-OEM floor: add 100 pounds, 6 cylinder only."

RETed

Race sanctions are about politics.
If you don't like it, don't race in them.

Import drags was all about FWD Hondas.
FWD (Hondas) still pull a lot of weight in the stupid politics.
They are not winning, so they pull stupid **** like this.

I'd rather go drifting.
Almost zero Hondas around.


-Ted

fdracer

umm you're thinking of all motor not modified.

anyway, the fact is the nhra bends over backwards to meet the needs of rotaries, but people don't appreciate it. take modified for example, 3000 lbs. is just ridiculous for a backhalved car, that is just too dangerous because all that weight will cause a lot of parts breakage. is it fair that the nhra has to keep slowing down the piston cars so the rotaries can appear to be competitive? no, but they have to, to keep the rotary guys from bitching. it just so happens that the opposite happens in all motor because of the superiority of rwd. don't u think everyone and their mother wants to split up the class? there's just not enough rwd cars out there, so you end up with all the fwd's racing each other and kilo racing by himself. it cuts both ways, the same handicapping that hurts rotaries in one class helps them in another, so why do people keep whining? what the nhra needs to do is to come up with some basic rules and just stop ****** changing them every 5 minutes.

680RWHP12A

[QUOTE=fdracer]umm you're thinking of all motor not modified.

the post title says jesus padilla, he is in the all motor class /// thats what the post is about, if im wrong i i apologise

andrew lohaus

they shouldnt even run fwd and rwd in the same class if you ask me. its rediculous to try to make the 2 setups competative regarldess of what engine is powering them.

i say make an all motor fwd >2.5 litters. and an all motor rwd>3.0 or 3.5 liters. they can have whatever other rules like tube chasis/weights alowed for different angines/displacements, but for crying out loud, dont run FWD with RWD.

this way all the econo box fwds can duke it out together, and the real cars (rx7, z-cars, stroked silvias, nxs, s2000 etc) can race on a more realistic playing feild.

but that just makes too much sense doesnt it?

88fc3sw/HX83

YEP

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Finally a practical reason to go drifting!

karism

I agree.
They should let the RWD cars compete in a class,and the FWD in a class.Not all of them in the same class...

Ag well.At least there is still some Rotaries in Dragracing.No sure for how long though.

karis

riddler_pr

Guys...you fail to realize the sense behind all of this...and its money!!!
Think who is sponsoring the all-motor class...Isn't it Honda???
Honda would be pissed off if any other vehicle rather than Honda is blowing the competition away-so of course NHRA has to "even" the field to make the sponsor (the company giving money to the events) happy...
I would like to blame Mazda for not taking part in sponsoring these events and killing two birds with one stone-the myths about mazda and promoting their label...(Mazda take a hint from Honda)
Listen fellows, Old school unfortunately is not as attractive as the new style. Thats where the money is. Young guys are willing and able to shell bucks for all the new stuff where Honda's, Mitsu's and so on are attracting young buyers.
Jesus is one of the few running old school and adapting to the rules to promote his business and his love for the sport.
The big machine is composed of Late model makes (Hondas and so on) and auto accesories (K&N, AEM, and so on)..and Jesus make little or no percentage of the complete picture (sad to say).
I dont think NHRA will divide even more in categories unless sponsors (again money) come up to the plate...
For now, is unfortunately a lost battle...

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

I am actually starting to believe that the rotary engine is falling behind against the new technology

riddler_pr

I disagree..I believe that Mazda has a wealth of technology...
Think about it. It's a 1.3l engine (you cant bore it or stroke it) and you can make tremendous horsepower...
The fact of the matter is...myth and dissinformation...
Many piston-oriented minds shun the Mazda rotary engine for a false belief of complexity...
Again I say, Mazda has not come forth and put a campaign of information and marketing to promote the rotary engine (perhaps Ford, a mayority stockholder of Mazda, doesnt care much for the development, marketing and orientation of this engine).
We have a love and a passion for an engine that has never been into liking since its conception and the powers to be dont make any efforts to make it "likable" to the skeptics out there...
I congratulate Jesus for having a car that goes against the new and the conventional and kicks royal piston butt on the race track. I just hope that some corporate sponsors look at this and may help the rotary cause...

fdracer

what do you mean mazda doesn't market the rotary? mazda n.a. and mazdaspeed give a ton of money to abel, lochead, and scheppers. scheppers has a brand new rx8 for modified class free from mazda. mazda is the most active supporter of drag racing out of all the import manufacturers. honda, mitsu, and nissan don't provide any sponsorship. i know for a fact that mazda is looking to sponsor even more big name racers, it's just that no one wants it, because all the knowledgeable racers know they will lose if they run a rotary. abel blew 30 motors last year and just about as many turbos, and he's still nowhere near the piston guys. do you really think the rotary is superior? in fact if someone campaigned a piston rwd car in all motor jesus would get killed too. the only way he's winning is cuz he can beat up on all these fwd cars. and for the last time they are not going to break up all motor. there are not enough rwd cars to make up a field. kilo is the only guy out there, how the **** are they gonna make a rwd all motor class w/ one participant. the nhra will just ban rwd's from all motor before they would make 2 classes, there's just not enough rwd cars period. u guys need to open your eyes, they are doing kilo a favor by letting him race in the class. it would be easier on everyone if the nhra just banned the rwd's, but they don't cuz they are trying to look out for everyone.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

I don't argue any of that, however now days, the rotary engine is competing agaimst 3liters and up engines; hell even the 20B is having a hard time with the 6 cylinders

riddler_pr

I dont want to engage into an argument, but hear me out...
You say that Mazda has shelled and is willing to spend money on whoever can put Mazda running fast and competitive and also that no one wants to deal with it...I'll give you that..
many Puertorrican racers that come and compete in the U.S. have more reliable engines (you mentioned that Abel has blown 30 or so motors-I dont think thats a rotary problem-I would think that the piece behind the wrenches (i.e. mechanic)...
Many puertorrican drag racers have had very reliable and strong engines...
Perhaps the language barrier? that could be...
Logistics (they are located outside continental U.S.)-another fact or possibility
The very few guys that are trying to deal with 20B motors that can compete with the 6 cyl. are just starting to learn and understand how they work, have they had backup from the big guys like you say???-I doubt it seriously..
It is much easier to work on something that has had some background (working with V-6's) rather than start from scratch on a 20b....I give you that point
I totally disagree that Mazda is shelling and willing to shell all the big bucks to have Mazda running strong-they should know how Puertorricans are running and would have approached them for support.
Just to validate my point, If Mazda was so eager to sponsor this deal-why haven't they approached Australians-they know the language and are also die hard rotary fans-and I dont hear or see any sponsorship overthere either...I am referring to Mazda worldwide that would also affect directly mazda america...
I am almost sure that Honda did some aiding in Papadakis Honda...I believe that they did donate the shell, but I could be wrong...

fdracer

they don't sponsor these guys because they want to sell cars to the american market. u have no idea how inferior these rotaries are in drag racing. the nhra is pullling everything out of their *** to keep them competitive and it's still not working. first of all there shouldn't even be any 3 rotors allowed, that motor was never in a in a sports car nor a compact car. the 20b is actually the technical equivalent to a v8, but they ban v8's and let 3 rotors race. an fd is always compared to a supra, so why not force 13b's to go heads up against a 2jz? look in modified class, the 2rotors get a 1000 lb. weight break over 6 cyl. how can you possibly think the rotary is superior, and yet they need such a huge handicap. even pos 4 cyl. these days make upwards of 1200hp. the 13b can't even compete against ****** econobox cavalier, honda, and saturn motors. the rotary has been dying for a long time, the nhra is just doing whatever it can to prolong that death.

karism

Ok....
Lots of strong feeling here.
I have to say,that the Rotary is on a downhill at the moment.It will take a miracle to get them to be up to date with the newer Boingers.Boinger engines have had support,and constant developement for more than 100 years.The Rotary is a bit behind,and i dont think Mazda is helping out..

I hope that someday,Mazda will start supporting the Aussies.They are some of the few people who are reaching new figures,along with Mr Padilla and the other few guys who are doing their best.

Aaaaarrgghhhh,this is getting very depressing indeed

May the Rotary never die in competition

Karis

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Whoa-whoa, a 20B is like a V8?

Indeed many 4 cylinders are claiming upward of 1000HP, yet the only one I can say is true is Kubo's car; wich in coincidence is using the GM eco egine. All others are hardly making any progress.

Keep in mind that this cars are full tube chassis, most of them aren't even at the level of 3/4 chassis rotary vehicles.

I agree that the 6 cylinders are killing the 13B, but not the 4 cyl ones

riddler_pr

fdracer..relax, this is an exhange of ideas...
Just some elementary facts:
many 4-cyl and 6-cyl engines (if not all) can have engine displacement CHANGED!!!! rotary engine remains what it is, a 13b is a 1.3l engine whether turboed, peripheral, bridge ported or street ported, it remains 1.3 litres
Same concept with the 20b...
Let me propose this...
Tell the v-6's and the 4 bangers to just do cylinder head work, no piston boring, no crankshaft modification, factory camshaft and let see if they will have the same results...
(many rotary engine use billet aluminum eccentric shafts-for durability not performance enhancing...
FYI weight of the vehicle is determined by power additives and guess what ....ENGINE DISPLACEMENT!!!! If I run bigger numbers on cubic inches (or centimeters) I must have a heavier car...
Rotary engines have not changed engine displacement since their conception and the NHRA has played with the weight of these vehicles continuously...
Is a 1.8l honda really 1.8 litres??? I believe not...
same with the v-6's...they were originally whatever litres but did they maintain the factory engine displacement..do you actually believe that????
And to answer your question...You bet your FD the rotary engine is a superior engine...Remember theres only 2 20b's to at least 4 v-6's in the big boy class...and again I remind you, It is still developing, they are just scratching the surface...
I will end this argument on your behalf (I believe you are ranting over there) by saying that NHRA should not change rules mid-season, they should sit their behinds and think things very carefully in the off-season and make ALL classes as competitive as possible. Making mid-season changes hinders the credibility and respect of their organization. The only exception to this rule is if they make changes that will ensure racers of their safety...
I believe we are all here true fans of the Wankel, and I am all for competition. I love the fact of diversity in the NHRA (rotary, hondas, mitsus and so on)...is shows variety....and it makes it all that exciting...
ANd finally, If you think that NHRA is making a supreme effort to maintain the survival of the rotary engine in the sport, NO NEED. We know what they can put out, we know what is left to look for and we definitely dont need the sympathy. Remember, many of these racers are doing it for the love of the sport (rotary) not a livelihood....

fastrotor30

you think a 20b is the same as a v8? you are kidding me. im not even going to address the issue, its not worth it.

here's what you do,
you make a class where a 2 rotor (13b) competes against other 4 cylinder cars and i guarantee you that a 1.3 liter 2 rotor will more then hold its own against them.
and remember a 4 cylinder can be anything, 2.0 or even 2.7 and up. a (13b) is always a 1.3 liter.

if i were carlos sr. id wait til next year and build myself a 20b rotor for the class next year. i guarantee you, with the power that he can make with the 3 rotor he can handle the toyota supra powered solara of paul or anybody else for that matter.
dislacement wise a 20b rotor is still at a disadvantage against a 3.0 liter supra motor.
keep in mind, the piston motor has many many more years of research and development behind it. Not so with the 20b rotor. we are only getting started my friend.
im never getting off the bandwagon. i know theres a few guys in here ranting and raving about the rotor, but pound for pound, the rotor is still king.


abel ibarra should never be used as an example of rotor reliability. abel is one of the most frustrated rotary mechanics around. i remember a few months ago when he ran 6.84 the first thing he did was send one of his crew member who is puerto rican to tell siguel that he is king. as if he was better then siguel. abel couldnt hold siguels wrench let alone beat him. siguel at one point ran more then 30 passes in the 7.1, 7.2's without once opening the engine or breaking it.
the day siguel ran 6.89 he also ran 6.95 and 6.98 without breaking. took the motor back home in one piece.

siguel just got his car back from tim mcammis chassis shop where the car was getting chassis work along with a new paint job. siguel is by no means done. he will tell you, the motor has alot more in it, just give him time. and not just him, theres alot of other projects coming out here in puerto rico with 20b set-up that promise big numbers.
even australia is getting in on the act.

fdracer

[QUOTE=riddler_pr]fdracer..relax, this is an exhange of ideas...
Just some elementary facts:
many 4-cyl and 6-cyl engines (if not all) can have engine displacement CHANGED!!!! rotary engine remains what it is, a 13b is a 1.3l engine whether turboed, peripheral, bridge ported or street ported, it remains 1.3 litres
Same concept with the 20b...
Let me propose this...
Tell the v-6's and the 4 bangers to just do cylinder head work, no piston boring, no crankshaft modification, factory camshaft and let see if they will have the same results...
QUOTE]

first of all, knonfs, pretty much all the 4 cyl.'s make well over 1200hp, not just kubo. a low buck basic setup like hpracing's civic made 1050 to the wheels when we dynoed it, that's 1200 at the crank. and that was 2 years ago, and they were only running gas and nitrous. everyone in profwd and hot rod makes more power than that now. as for increasing displacement, everyone is actually lowering their displacement. all the ecotecs are destroke to about 2.1 liters.

anyway how the hell are you gonna say that rotaries are superior but piston engines have an advantage because they have more displacement. u can't try to say the rotary is better and add all these caveats, either it's better or it isn't.

have siguel run at an nhra event at full nhra weight and see what he he runs. even if he could run consistent 6.90's at nhra weight he'd still lose to everyone. steph runs easy 6.70s all day long and he's still just sandbagging. plus all the pro rotary guys have to run 3 rotors to run close to 7.0. john lingenfelter ran a 6.99 with a 4cyl. ecotec. so what should we compare the 20b to a 4cyl. now? let's just keep lowering the bar, maybe the 13b is the equivalent of a lawmower engine. and yes the 20b is the technical equivalent to a v8. the fd has always been in the same class as 6cyl.s such as the supra and 300zx. the rx8 is in the same class as todays 6cyl's like the 350z and g35. if 2 rotor = 6 cyl, what would you call a 3 rotor?

riddler_pr

fd...
You say that a 20b is the equivalent of a v-8 and you say that rotary engines are inferior, do you see where you are contradicting yourself???
If they are inferior, there is no way you should compare it to a v-8..
You say also that a 13b is compared to a 6 cyl..again you contradict yourself...
I have a feeling you are not very happy with the fd that you own...
Perhaps you should change to a supra or a piston and find the car happiness that you are searching for...
Relax dude, its only exchanging ideas....