? about ceramic coatings
05-17-03, 10:29 PM
#1
? about ceramic coatings
I now that its been talked about. but was anything ever figured out. I have the opportunity to have som things coated for free. i need to know. as far as ceramic coatings, i think just coating the combustion chamber is the most i will do.. but i need feed back. also what about coating the bearings and apex seals?????
05-18-03, 05:20 PM
#3
Rotary Enthusiast
wouldn't coat a friction surface like an apex seal - fragile enough and hate for coating to chip off.
Saw a picture of someone getting the rotor coated, but some asked questions as what it would do to heat disapation and redirecting the heat elsewhere vs. beneficial.
Other things that could be treated are downpipe, midpipe/cat, intercooler tubing.
Saw a picture of someone getting the rotor coated, but some asked questions as what it would do to heat disapation and redirecting the heat elsewhere vs. beneficial.
Other things that could be treated are downpipe, midpipe/cat, intercooler tubing.
05-19-03, 05:58 AM
#4
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I saw an SAE paper online somewhere about ceramic coating the rotors, which greatly increased the motors effeciency due to reducing heat loss through the rotors.
05-23-03, 10:47 AM
#5
Senior Member
ceramic coating
I have sequential turbos ceramic coated by Pettit Racing. They claim the better heat dissipation will extend the turbo life and decrease heat stress cracks from developing in the housing and mounting surfaces.
Ron A.
Ron A.
06-12-03, 10:29 AM
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I have thought long about ceramic coating the outside of the engine to reduce about 30% of the heat from heating up surrounding areas in the engine compartment.
This should reduce damage to wiring, rubber hoses, etc... caused by prolong heat exposure.
The surface of the rotor is an interesting idea. It will smooth out the surface. This might reduce carbon sticking to it which is one of the culprits of detonation ( heated carbon ). Also, it should reduce the temperature of the rotor from heat soaking. If less heat is transferred to the rotor, the least efficiently cooled area of the engine since there are no water passages that cools it, then the oil that lubricates and cools it would work more efficiently.
These are just mere thoughts and assumptions.
Can anyone shed some light on this matter?
This should reduce damage to wiring, rubber hoses, etc... caused by prolong heat exposure.
The surface of the rotor is an interesting idea. It will smooth out the surface. This might reduce carbon sticking to it which is one of the culprits of detonation ( heated carbon ). Also, it should reduce the temperature of the rotor from heat soaking. If less heat is transferred to the rotor, the least efficiently cooled area of the engine since there are no water passages that cools it, then the oil that lubricates and cools it would work more efficiently.
These are just mere thoughts and assumptions.
Can anyone shed some light on this matter?
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06-12-03, 11:58 AM
#8
Got Boost?
Ceramic coating the rotor faces would definately increase thermal efficiency, so you'd get more torque from idle to redline. Your oil temps would be lower, because the ceramic slows heat transfer. I don't know what it would do to detonation resistance. I'ver heard that it both ways on that regard. I would think it might lower detonation resistance, because it hampers the effectiveness of the "quench" regions near the apex seals, by holding the heat in the compressed charge. But I've heard from plenty that the contrary is true. Anyone know?
06-12-03, 07:57 PM
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I've had my rotors ceramic coated for about 3000mi now and have noticed about a 15degree drop in oil temp. plus when I had my turbo and mani off recently I looked into the exhaust ports to find absolutly no carbon on the rotors. As far as more horsepower or less prone to detonation, I couldn't tell ya. But I would think sence the cumbustion chamber is much smoother that it would be less prone to preignite.
06-13-03, 12:27 AM
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Originally posted by Bad2ndgen
I've had my rotors ceramic coated for about 3000mi now and have noticed about a 15degree drop in oil temp. plus when I had my turbo and mani off recently I looked into the exhaust ports to find absolutly no carbon on the rotors. As far as more horsepower or less prone to detonation, I couldn't tell ya. But I would think sence the cumbustion chamber is much smoother that it would be less prone to preignite.
I've had my rotors ceramic coated for about 3000mi now and have noticed about a 15degree drop in oil temp. plus when I had my turbo and mani off recently I looked into the exhaust ports to find absolutly no carbon on the rotors. As far as more horsepower or less prone to detonation, I couldn't tell ya. But I would think sence the cumbustion chamber is much smoother that it would be less prone to preignite.
Which ceramic coating did u use?
The chrome or matte black one?
The matte black has better high heat properties and lower heat transfer.
It's not the best looking finish, but gets the job done.
What kinda HP are u running?
06-13-03, 02:13 AM
#13
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Batman, I don't think you have to worry about the coatings not taking the combustion, those coatings can really take a beating (they have been used in CART engines for a long time). It would also be neat to have Titainium Nitride put on bearings and such (its really hard and smooth, they use it on race motorcycles to get rid of for stichtion).
But also wouldn't putting the coatings on the rotors send even more heat out through the exhaust? This wouldn't be a big concearn for you turbo guys but us N/A ppl burn out exhaust systems fast enough already.
But also wouldn't putting the coatings on the rotors send even more heat out through the exhaust? This wouldn't be a big concearn for you turbo guys but us N/A ppl burn out exhaust systems fast enough already.
06-13-03, 10:15 AM
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I've coated the turbo housings, LIM and UIM and really noticed that intake temps on the pfc commander has dropped at least 5 degrees in stop and go traffic and little over 10 degrees during freeway conditions....
06-18-03, 10:45 AM
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the LIM was purely functional. It was the matte black finish which is suppose to have a 35% heat transfer reduction.
The UIM was done with ceramicrome for looks with a rating of 25%. But what I eventually did for cosmetic reasons was powder coat the top part of the UIM wrinkle black. If I had to do it again I would go with the matte black finish with the wrinkle powder coat.
The only other advantage to the ceramicrome is that it can be applied to the inside of the UIM and LIM to smooth out the surface for reduced air drag.
BTW, if u do the UIM u'll have to remove the "warm-up" butterflies. Porting it is a good idea IMHO.
The UIM was done with ceramicrome for looks with a rating of 25%. But what I eventually did for cosmetic reasons was powder coat the top part of the UIM wrinkle black. If I had to do it again I would go with the matte black finish with the wrinkle powder coat.
The only other advantage to the ceramicrome is that it can be applied to the inside of the UIM and LIM to smooth out the surface for reduced air drag.
BTW, if u do the UIM u'll have to remove the "warm-up" butterflies. Porting it is a good idea IMHO.
06-19-03, 09:16 AM
#17
Re: ? about ceramic coatings
Originally posted by astrochild7
I now that its been talked about. but was anything ever figured out. I have the opportunity to have som things coated for free. i need to know. as far as ceramic coatings, i think just coating the combustion chamber is the most i will do.. but i need feed back. also what about coating the bearings and apex seals?????
I now that its been talked about. but was anything ever figured out. I have the opportunity to have som things coated for free. i need to know. as far as ceramic coatings, i think just coating the combustion chamber is the most i will do.. but i need feed back. also what about coating the bearings and apex seals?????
"Rotor and side housings are coated with hot-sprayed chrome-carbide cermet (ceramic in a metallic array) for high-temperature wear resistance. The intake as well as exhaust ports are peripheral. Each rotor housing has 3 spark plugs: a third "far-trailing" plug was added for better fuel economy and power. Rotors were precision cast to a 10.0:1 compression ratio using the lost-wax method to reduce rotating mass. Two-piece silicon nitride ceramic apex seals have, in the words of one summary, "a 'sprinkle' of an ingredient that raises heat conductivity", and they use 2 springs. The R26B has a sophisticated electronic port fuel injection system and telescopically variable intake pipes whose length vary with engine speed to improve airflow. " quoted from http://www.geocities.com/fdkaimember/r26b.html
06-19-03, 11:05 AM
#19
Originally posted by BATMAN
the LIM was purely functional. It was the matte black finish which is suppose to have a 35% heat transfer reduction.
The UIM was done with ceramicrome for looks with a rating of 25%. But what I eventually did for cosmetic reasons was powder coat the top part of the UIM wrinkle black. If I had to do it again I would go with the matte black finish with the wrinkle powder coat.
The only other advantage to the ceramicrome is that it can be applied to the inside of the UIM and LIM to smooth out the surface for reduced air drag.
BTW, if u do the UIM u'll have to remove the "warm-up" butterflies. Porting it is a good idea IMHO.
the LIM was purely functional. It was the matte black finish which is suppose to have a 35% heat transfer reduction.
The UIM was done with ceramicrome for looks with a rating of 25%. But what I eventually did for cosmetic reasons was powder coat the top part of the UIM wrinkle black. If I had to do it again I would go with the matte black finish with the wrinkle powder coat.
The only other advantage to the ceramicrome is that it can be applied to the inside of the UIM and LIM to smooth out the surface for reduced air drag.
BTW, if u do the UIM u'll have to remove the "warm-up" butterflies. Porting it is a good idea IMHO.
Wouldn't extrude honing be a better way of getting smooth flow and enlarge the intake ?
06-19-03, 11:18 AM
#20
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Well, it's 2 different things. Inside the intake track of a cast part like the UIM and LIM there are textured surface that create some degree of turbulence and increased Cd.
By coating this, it fills the textured areas to smooth the surface out. This lowers the turbulence and Cd.
I did that for the UIM. I left the LIM internals stock since u need some degree of turbulence to better atomize and "mix" the A/F mixture.
By coating this, it fills the textured areas to smooth the surface out. This lowers the turbulence and Cd.
I did that for the UIM. I left the LIM internals stock since u need some degree of turbulence to better atomize and "mix" the A/F mixture.
06-19-03, 06:26 PM
#21
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
bad2gen,
can you explain how, where and what type of ceramic coating you placed on the rotors? Who suggested it? Anyone else have there rotors or housings coated?
can you explain how, where and what type of ceramic coating you placed on the rotors? Who suggested it? Anyone else have there rotors or housings coated?
06-20-03, 02:52 AM
#22
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But you don't want to make the intake too smooth, then it won't mix as well. But I emailed HPC, and they told me some interesting stuff, I will just post the whole email.
Hello, I noticed that the website listed rotary headers under the Hipercoat Extreme section, but I was wondering if the HiperCoat could be put on top of the extreme coating?
I was also wondering if using the HiperCoat on my intake manifold would stop some engine heat from soaking into the intake manifold?
And lastly how thick are SO1 SDF coatings?
Thanks
-Justin
Justin:
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately HiPerCoat® will not bond to HiPerCoat Extreme™ very well and will therefore flake off. The reason for HiPerCoat Extreme on rotary applications is because even a naturally aspirated rotary exceeds the temperature capability of regular HiPerCoat (around 1600° F).
Using the regular HiPerCoat on your intake manifold will help. In fact tests have shown the air inside intake manifolds to be as much as 30% cooler than an uncoated intake. So it can help quite a bit with air density.
S01 thickness range is 0.0007" - 0.0009", so very thin. We do not recommend accounting for coating thickness in any machine work, since the coating is a lubricant and not a hard face surface like chrome plating. However, S01 is a permanent process, unlike silk screened moly coatings.
Hello, I noticed that the website listed rotary headers under the Hipercoat Extreme section, but I was wondering if the HiperCoat could be put on top of the extreme coating?
I was also wondering if using the HiperCoat on my intake manifold would stop some engine heat from soaking into the intake manifold?
And lastly how thick are SO1 SDF coatings?
Thanks
-Justin
Justin:
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately HiPerCoat® will not bond to HiPerCoat Extreme™ very well and will therefore flake off. The reason for HiPerCoat Extreme on rotary applications is because even a naturally aspirated rotary exceeds the temperature capability of regular HiPerCoat (around 1600° F).
Using the regular HiPerCoat on your intake manifold will help. In fact tests have shown the air inside intake manifolds to be as much as 30% cooler than an uncoated intake. So it can help quite a bit with air density.
S01 thickness range is 0.0007" - 0.0009", so very thin. We do not recommend accounting for coating thickness in any machine work, since the coating is a lubricant and not a hard face surface like chrome plating. However, S01 is a permanent process, unlike silk screened moly coatings.
07-11-03, 06:15 PM
#23
Rotary Enthusiast
just got a quote on my apexi intakes and intake pipes for $95 which is their min charge for cermakrome. Could probably through another pipe in if I felt like having a 1/2 polished 1/2 cermakrome finish.
07-11-03, 08:33 PM
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Anybody tried techline coatings?
Like jet hot coatings but protect better and costs less
http://www.techlinecoatings.com/index.htm
Like jet hot coatings but protect better and costs less
http://www.techlinecoatings.com/index.htm
07-12-03, 02:13 PM
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The only thing to watch out for is when you coat your exhaust manifolds/turbo. Most ceramic coatings are good up to about 1200-1300 degrees F, and out exhaust are hotter than that. The only solution I have found for this is to use the Hipercoat Extreme that HPC offers as it is rated to 1800 F, although it isn't pretty.