Aerosmith145

= Sarcasm.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we know the answer to that, its like an ITS setup, 160ish rwhp....

peejay

Not at all.

Some people do not like turbos. They're laggy and they don't work well when you add a lot of heat to the mix. (How well does a turbo motor work at 230deg coolant temps, 100 deg ambient temps, and only 30mph airflow over the intercooler? Sounds like a recipe for an engine kit)

Done and done.

True. But there's a huge difference between possible and easy. You can't say something is impossible, then claim that you merely meant easy. That's ricer-think.

Black91n/a

There's more to it than that too. There's also the non-linearity of turbo power. For instance if you're going around a corner at steady throttle trying to just maintain speed, the engine can start making more and more power as the turbo spools building boost, making you accelerate when you didn't want to. Turbos also add weight and complexity. They will also tend to have worse throttle response.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

It's not that, it's just that 99% of the people who come in to the second gen forum want to know what they can do to their NA FC to get to some massive whp on the cheap.

Who's got a 13B-DEI at 230 whp? RE blocks don't count. BT blocks don't count. REW blocks don't count. I still haven't seen one that doesn't require at least a bridge, and at that point, you're sacrificing civility, a stable idle, and city gas mileage, all of which is probably not wanted by the 99% of people who come in with their NA's and want to get to that massive hp number. That's not ricer speak, that's realistically setting expectations. It's nice to show off the exception to the norm, but is that the right thing to do, put the implication that it's easily doable in NA trim for not that much money based on the successes of the few that are repeatedly posted up?

Now, in the NA Performance forum, it's a different story, where the threads of discussion are, how far can you take a motor in NA form, not just the stock motor that comes in the SA/FB/FC's, but any 13B motor.

The only DEI motor that I know of that puts out 230 whp are the E-prod motors, and that's far from being a street motor. Let's not even get into noise levels of those motors, or the ITS motors either. The highest power ITS motors currently use the ISC exhaust, which can be heard from a mile away. Are bragging rights worth multiple and repeated noise tickets to the average NA owner? Sure, it's done and done it terms of an hp number, but can you really drive on the street with such a motor without worrying about being stopped? If it's so easily attainable, why aren't more cars out their with such high hp levels?

The intent of this thread is to help out the average NA owner to see what's the most they can get of their stock NA motors without having to swap an engine in, while keeping the car streetable and civil. Some may think of a bridgeport as being streetable, but if you have to fill your gas tank up every 100 city miles, it doesn't count for being streetable.

I stand by my statement that it's not possible to maintain streetability while shooting for a high hp number out of a stock DEI block. 200 whp is probably the upper limit of this range, and that's few and far in between. It requires a motor with excellent compression, excellent port work and a matched intake, exhaust and tune.

It's hard to get to that level in the first place. The average NA owner uses their FC as a DD, so certain factors need to be taken into account, instead of focusing on bragging rights for HP.

This isn't the same thread as the one in NA performance. It's in second gen for a reason. By that alone, you should assume that engine swaps are out of the budget of the average FC owner. Unless of course, you're going to tell me that I'm wrong for assuming that the most important priority of the majority of NA owners is cost-benefit?

Aerosmith, how would you characterize the majority of FC owners, based on the threads posted in this forum?

Before you respond, look at the OP's post. That should give you a good idea of the people that come into this forum with the question, "What's the most that can get out of my NA?"

Roen

iTrader: (2)

You know what, nix anything relevant I said in my last post. I don't know why I assumed or thought that this was in 2nd gen specific. I must be really tired. Was this thread always in NA performance?

I still stand by my statements regarding the majority of people who come into the 2nd gen specific forum. I'm not putting them down in any way, I'm just trying to be accurate.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

you raise a couple of good points. such as the noise, although the mazdatrix eprod cars are quiet, it can be done

the other point you make is that the new FC owner just wants to know what makes power, and after not having had one in 10+ years i have an s4 na, and i'm wondering if anyone has come up with something new

peejay

It's called an LS1.

You say that as if 6 port engines are the only naturally aspirated engines out there. Why do they not count?

Most of the people who have an FC N/A and want OMG WHP aren't all that interested in expending effort. IMO.

Look at it this way. You say yourself, you need to have a ported engine. You need a standalone, which negates the ability to pass an emissions test, technically anyway. There is zero stopping someone from acquiring a 13BT or a 13B-RE block and building that up while driving the stock 6 port engine, and then swapping out when the engine's done. It isn't any more difficult, time consuming, or expensive.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I'm not clear on why a standalone would negate the ability to pass an emissions test, on an OBD-I car?

We didn't need to mention the LS1 did we? It's assumed that we're referring to rotary only. At the price point of an LS1, a TII swap is also viable, with more hp to boot.

IMO, while modifying or swapping engines is an option, it really doesn't cross the minds of the people who come into these forums and ask about what they can do to their NA. At most, 99% would just consider porting.

If you come in with a newly bought car and you log onto a forum and ask, what can I do to my car to get some decent power?, and the first response you get is, tear the engine apart, modify the internals, or swap your engine to something else entirely, that's a bit disconcerting.

Like I said, from the OP's post, this thread didn't seem like an NA engine largest ***** contest. It seemed to be more like the usual, what bolt-ons or minor engine mods can I do to the car to get the greatest power available? At least it did, before the 13B-RE 230whp streetport engine was mentioned. Then again, we already have multiple threads discussing that one, we don't really need have another one, a link mention would've been enough.

+1000000000000000000000000

I think I should probably start a thread strictly discussing the potential of unmodified NA engine blocks, without modification, to lessen any confusion, though I'm debating whether to start it in second gen performance or NA performance. If I start it in second gen performance, I should probably show some love to the first gen crowd too.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

DUDE, have you TRIED to open the hood on one of these things? ZOMG is the steel hood heavy

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Realistically if he wants to keep a 6 port engine and limit other mods to a stock ecu and simple bolt ons, he isn't going to hit 200 rwhp. An rtek ecu might be an option though as it gives you most of the benefits of an aftermarket ecu with the simplicity of the stock one. You still have to do some tuning though and I've found people who want easy power typically want it to be purely bolt on and shun the idea of possibly having to tune anything themselves aside from turning a couple of ***** on a piggyback unit that is more or less an overglorified stereo eq for the engine. A programmable ecu however is the only way to get the most power out of the engine.

Without any porting, the max power that will realistically be seen, assuming no fancy aftermarket intakes, carbs, etc, will be around 165 rwhp or so. A good port job and good tuning can see around 200 rwhp or so but probably a little bit under it. More is not impossible but most won't get it. Most being the key word here. When you start getting into 4 port motors, new intake manifold designs, different rpm limits, etc, then it becomes possible to easily top this. Most will never get that far though.

A realistic answer to the OP's original question based on the 6 port engine and no standalone is a flat out "no". It's not going to happen. 200 rwhp won't either. My advice is to always start with bolt ons first. I'd even do an ecu BEFORE any porting. Even an rtek which is rapidly turning into the best bang for the buck ecu. Only after maximizing the potential of the stock engine would I ever consider porting as an option. Too many want to start with porting when it should be the very LAST mod that you do.

peejay

It depends on if you call it a "mod" or if you just consider it an upgrade while you have the engine apart to replace the side housing(s) with cracked coolant O-ring lands.

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

Put it this way. You will not hit 200whp with the stock AFM. You have to get rid of it one way or the other to make that power. Either standalone or carburetor. There are a few guys hitting 200 whp on stock port 6ports, but that's with stand alone and custom manifolds or webers. It makes it a whole lot easier to hit 200 whp when there has been porting done, but the afm still beomes the choke. stock port 6 port wil all bolt ons and a Safc or Rteck will net the average person 165-175 whp.

Dak

Wow. I did a search on my old posts to find a thread I posted on yesterday and boy did this one get brought back from the dead early this year. My memory is foggy as this was four years ago but the scope of the thread was not a stock port motor and bolt ons. It was more of a can it be done without going to a bridgeport, as it will remain a street car. I was already sure I'd have to go standalone and some form of port work. Not sure if it was around this time or later I looked briefly at independent throttle bodies. Thanks for all the replies, I think I know now what it would take, but alas I have moved on. The car is still in the same state of tune as when I made the thread. I got into atvs and playing aroung on MX tracks and have since spent enough on a four wheeler to buy a standalone or do a mild TII conversion. If I still have the car (I threaten to sell it every 3 to 6 months, but haven't been able to part with it) when this engine dies It'll probably get a turbo conversion or a large street-port built from spare housings I have depending on the available funds at the time.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

This post makes me want to challenge the view point of 200 whp on stock AFM. I might try next time I get an N/A to work with.

My recipe since it's probably not too secret anymore:
S5 Engine / Rotors
Aggressive Streetport
Engine Rebalancing
Rtek 2.0 setting the rev limit at 9200 rpm
Cone Filter with Cold Air Box
ISC Exhaust (If I can still find one at the time, also depends on the volume of their exhaust, may have to go with their headers matched with RB's presilencer and mufflers)
Heat Wrap the Exhaust
Custom Intake Manifold to shift the powerband higher (I know of 2 in existence that bolt to the stock TB)
Port Matching, Extrude Honing and Ceramic Coating of the Manifolds
Removing 6PI / VDI actuators and sleeves (If I'm only a few hp away)
Smoothed and Ported TB (If I'm only a few hp away)
Lightweight Flywheel
Lightweight Driveshaft

I think it has a decent shot of breaking 200 whp on a cold day, it might have a slim shot of breaking 200 whp on a hot day.

Though if it were up to me, I would run the turbo block instead of the N/A block, but I just want to see what the N/A block can do.