Bruno

Can I make the same amount of power with nitrous as I do with a 22psi of boost. If not why not?

680RWHP12A

no,,,,,,,, n2o sucks!!!

Bruno

well that is a very very smart answer. May I ask why you think that of nitrous. I have work with turbos and nitrous is much easier to deal with. with a turbo you have to deal with wastegate, pop off valve, blow off valves, have to try and error turbine hausings, intercooler, the fuel mapping is more time consuming, back pressure, heat etc, etc,

I have started working with nitrous and is much more easier to work with.

fastrotaries

with enough nos it's possible. just pick your poison.

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

I find that N20 is as complicated. Has its own problems. Unless you use a very complex system. And then your back at having more variables to worry about. My friend runs N20 and depending on bottle temps and pressure he gets mixed results. Of course you can always run a full bottle but that means carrying many bottles to the track. Also need to dyno it for N20 and use it all the time or you need to retune without. And of course you can add bottle warmers and all sorts of add ons. It gets to be almost as expensive as turbo charging with it not being as usable as a turbo i.e. street driving etc.

T88NosRx7

iTrader: (1)

I have to agree with zoomzoom, but N2O has its benefits. No lag for large amounts of power is one that pops to mind, also it would be significantly cheaper, but I don't think nitrous should be your primary source of hp gains.

89S13

nitrous doesn't combust in as stable a manner as forced induction. plus you would need huge amounts of nitrous and you would HAVE too run a variable nitrous controller. Not to mention you would have to have your own nitrous refilling station at home to keep your refilling costs down. Your nitrous backfires would be positively WICKED!. You would probably need a Motec with killer maps to control both nitrous and fuel. As Zoom Zoom said you'd always have to run full bottles but thats practically imposible with that amount of nitrous since it goes so fast. The only way to have stable nitrous line pressure is too use a nitrogen bottle pressure stabilizer and I haven't seen one of those setups in at least 10 years.

Bruno

thanks for the info. The reason for the question is because I am running a peripheral engine in a car that I want to drag race, and the use of nitrous will only be for a few seconds, I already have a nitrous controller to simulate the amount of power produced by a turbo that is with nitrous. (I already have tonns of dataloggings and I asure you that the turbo that I have used T-78 does not take long to pruduce boost.)
Maybe you can explain a bit better when you say that the nitrous is not as stable as forced induction. (nitromethane is not stable maybe you are confuse)

infinitebass

You have no clue what you're talking about. You can refill a NOS bottle for about $20 and for just periodic usage usually lasts a few weekends of racing. You don't have to have a Motec as long as you have whatever you're using tuned rich enough to cover how lean it gets when you spray, not to mention you can switch between maps when you need with most setups.

All you need to keep a stable pressure in the bottle is a bottle warmer. The hotter it gets, the more pressure, and you'd have a regulator hooked up to it.

I priced out a shot of NOS for my car, and it came out to be, for a direct port 75 shot, all the necessary hardware, remote bottle opener, heater, regulator, etc, $1500 installed.

Now how is it as expensive as turbocharging? I don't know exactly how strong the internals on a rotary engine is, but it seems like the design would be very strong and would be able to handle a lot.

Did I mention NOS is not used for its combustion properties, idiot. Its used because it supercools the intake charge, creating a very dense intake of air, which equates to more fuel and more power. NOT because it "explodes".

There are Corvettes (Damned V8's) that run straight 200 shots of NOS and have no problem whatsoever. Its just as streetable as a turbo, cause you don't even use it under normal conditions! So you're just running on your engine and whatever FI you might have.

Don't post if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Blake

Bruno

I think that this post is way off the knowledge for the members of this forum and if someone on this forum knows the answer is too selfish to share the information.
By the way I am already running 150 HP with nitrous.

infinitebass

How much HP does 22psi make on an Rx7?

Bruno

Depending on the mixture use an apro. 200 HP

89S13

Blake did I hit a raw nerve or what?

Ok first of all i misunderstood what Bruno was trying to do. His original post did not include much info on what he wanted to do. I thought that he wanted to use it on the street all the time and simulate a big turbo at 22 psi. My mistake, I appologize. Maybe I've been looking at Arnie's motor on EVIL7.com too much.

I will explain at length what I meant . Ok suppose I had wanted to make as much HP as a 13B with a 650HP turbo. Lets say N/A the motor made 150HP so I would need another 500HP on nitrous that would be a huge amount of nitrous on a rotary or any motor for that matter. So by default it would have to have a progressive nitrous controller and on second thought I think I discounted the fact that the NOS unit could probably been able to handle the chore which is why I said that a Motec would be needed to not only control fuel but also pulse the nitrous solenoids. So given the amount of nitrous that would be used in this setup on the street and used often, a refilling station would be in order.

Now lets discuss bottle pressure, a full 10lb bottle with a 500HP nitrous kit might last for two 1/4 mile passes. A bottle heater is not designed to keep bottle pressure stable as the bottle empties, it is designed to keep bottle tempuratures consistent when the temperature drops, so it will still drop pressure as it empties, but at least you will know what kind of performance to expect when you have a full, 3/4, 1/2, or however full it is. And in this crazy scenario that I was thinking of, stable bottle pressure would be of paramount importance since it would use nitrous so fast, which is why I mentioned the nitrogen bottle pressure stabilizer set-up. There is no such thing as a nitrous regulator.

Yes Blake, I know that nitrous is not used for combustion properties. Yes nitrous cools the intake charge but that is not why it makes power. Nitrous makes more power by the fact that it contains two oxygen molecules whereas air has only one. Nitrous oxide is made up of one nitrogen molecule and two oxygen molecule, it is the nitrogen molecule that destabilizes the combustion process, not severely mind you but enough so that you can't get the same HP as you can with forced induction.

89S13

Bruno

Ok, I'm confused by what kind of HP numbers you are looking for. You say you had a T-78, are you trying to get the same HP as a T-78 at 22psi? In your answer to Infinitebass you say 200HP. Which one is it? A T-78 at 22psi makes WAY more than 200HP.
Bruno read the last part of my post to Infinitebass/Blake, that explains nitrous stability. Forced induction is way easier on engine parts.

Metallic_rock

Side note: the name nos is a play on the molecular compound of nitrous oxide. NO2 not N20

infinitebass

NOS I believe is just a play on Nitrous, not the actual full name of the compound.

Not to mention N2O IS Nitrous oxide. NO2 is nitrous dioxide.

89S13, I did not think that 22psi would put a 13b to 650hp. So yes, I don't think any motor could handle a 500hp shot of NOS without major work. I was thinking that would put you around 400hp, and I assumed he would be still using stock turbo's. Of course, going from no turbo to 22 psi is going to be hard to replicate safely with NOS. Now lets see if Bruno can give a bit more info.

moprblms

hey you should pm judge Ito he is the man when it comes to nitrous

93redFD

22psi, what turbo? N20 isnt a good idea unless your able to tune your own car. Sence rotaries are some sensitive about afr's and timing, to run that much n20 your motor would be a ticking time bomb. Now, there is a guy i think in south florida that has bridgeport and 400 shot and he runs like 9 flats( I think its the guy in florida, im not real sure)
N20 less complicated than boost, well, i think there only complicated when there both used at the same time, thats when **** start falling apart.
My opinion, why not try something new?? You will realise that n20 will cost you the same amount as forced induction.

dcee

To answer the question at hand . .. . There is a formula to calculate how much extra hp will be gained per psi of boost. I found a calculator online that will give you an estimate of how much HP increase a supercharger would give you.

Depends on which 13B you are talking about?

but here's an example:
200hp- NA)-> 20psi = 438 hp!

oh yeah here's on link i found :
http://www.superchargersonline.com/h...r.asp?submit=1

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

He is using a peripheral port 13B. If it is high compression and tuned properly he could get 300+ hp out of it n/a. Racing Beat made a 900 hp 3 rotor turbo peripheral port at 15 psi. If we divide that to equal 2 rotors that is still 600 hp when tuned right. It would just take a really really big exhaust housing to reduce back pressure on the turbo. Then you have to find one that will function in its most efficient range around the boost level he wants and can flow enough air at the rpm he wants it to. You could top 600 rwhp at 22 psi on a turbo peripheral port. Why not. You can get 300 rwhp on an n/a peripheral port. If you wanted that much power from nitrous it would take a really big shot on the order of 300+ or more. It is possible that if you built the engine for it and tuned it correctly you could do it. I would only try it progressively but then again I'm a chicken when it comes to nitrous. If you are using a carb then you just jet it around n/a applications and use a wet shot with timing retard. A programmable ecu would be easier still. Either way a car this wild, turbo, nitrous or otherwise may be a bit of a headache to tune but I'm sure it would be impressive. If its a peripheral port its probably not a street car. Who cares about how long a bottle lasts. Neither option is cheap in the end. If you go turbo then at least use an air/water intercooler.

infinitebass

There is no TRUE formula to figure out how much HP you get from an engine per pound of boost. Its really dependent on the engine. Some like boost, others don't!

Blake

Bruno

a peripheral engine makes something like 250 HP at 9000 rpm plus if you ad 22 psi ( about 200 HP) that makes 450 HP total. I never said that the engine make 200HP, 200 hp o just boost plus the amount of poqwer produce by the engine itself.

450 HP total from which I take 200 HP of power produce by the turbo. If I was to produce 28 psi of boost those 28 babies will produce about 250 HP plus the 250 HP from the engine normal intake =500 HP.

To produce 500 HP with nitrous you need to burn about 30 pounds of nitros a minute, for a run of let say 8 seconds that will be 4 pounds of nitrous per run. that is If you are going to drag race.
HAs anybody noticedt at when nitrous comes out of the bottle the nitrous comes out like a liquid not a gas state.

Bruno

That is not true, thats just a lack of knowledge.
If you know how much air the engine takes, you can calculate the volume of air, air density, losses due to tempeture rise due to presure, eficiency of the turbo, if you know the density ratio at which you are going to play with, you can look at the compresor map of the turbo you are going to use and then you will know how many pounds of air/min or cubic feet per minute you are consuming and then and just then you can calculate the amount of fuel needed to consume all of that air inside your engine.

Thats way I say that 22psi of boost will give your engine a boost of 200HP plus the amoutn of power the engine makes without a turbo about 250 at 9000 for a PP engine at sea level.

Bruno

I read so many post saying that nitrous is dangerous, too risky, etc, etc. But nobody has said why, why, From my point of view a turbo producing 22 pounds of boost are more dangerous than nitrous because, first you have to deal with back pressure, second I have a programable computer in my 3er gen and in order for me to achived a good air/fuel mixture at 22 psi took me hours and hours playing with the fuel map and dealing with back pressure, just to maintain a safe air fuel mixture.

with nitrous the power comes at once and it is easier to fine tuned the mixture.
I will have to ask again this way like this. assuming that I have the same mixture for nitrous like the one used on a turbo at 22 psi of boost about (11.6:1) and asuming that I have a nitrous controller where I can control how long the nitrous will take to open from where I press full accelerator, how much nitrous will flow from beginning and the amount of time taken from beggining to end lets say start at 40 % and finish 100% in 1.5 seconds.
Does anybody on this forum think why it will not work, 200 HP are 200HP whether is forced induced or nitrous, is it not? dont just say yes or not pleasse give me an technical answer.

j200pruf

iTrader: (4)

I thought that N20 also realeases a bunch of Oxygen into the intake charge (once its in the cylinder and temps are about 570 F)?