scotty305

iTrader: (2)

I felt the need to start a topic that's actually somewhat race technique related. Sorry this is the best I could think of for now.

-s-

PureSephiroth

in my incredibly limited experience at the autocross (bout 10 total 1 minutes runs) I was using a shuffle for everything except for a 180 where I was going full lock.

SPiN Racing

Used to Hand over hand.. when I was early in driving.. BUT.. I found when autocrossing early on the crossover in real slow tight stuff is fine.. but everything other than a tight 180.. the shuffle is much better for keeping from breaking a finger in the 3 spokes.. or banging your arms against each other..
Track driving.. shuffle.. always

SleepR1

One-handed spin the steering wheel to catch wicked yaw angle technique

DamonB

I shuffle unless things go VERY wrong and then I will hand over hand as fast as I can until I hit the steering stops

PureSephiroth

^ sounds like me, but by the time I realize something has gone wrong, its already too late

blackbirdzach

ahahah! My MR2 was like that.

BrewerBob

I'm not talented enough to shuffle steer. It would require breaking old driving habits and what-not.

DamonB

The neat thing about shuffling is you can practice it everyday driving around on the street; you don't have to use it in the racecar until you're comfortable. My gf has gotten good at it after practicing for the last few months in her Jeep. It took her a while to break the habit but now once in the FD on course her steering is MUCH better.

Shuffling and moving your head around a lot to look ahead can be done during everyday driving and you don't have to drive "aggressively" on the street in order to practice!

PaulyDee

Depending on the corner will dictate my technique on the steering wheel. It has been almost 5 years since I autocrossed so no point of reference there. Most sweeping corners will keep my hands locked at 9 and 3. Sharper corners will have my hands shuffling. Damage control (immenent spin) can be one or the other depending on the severity of the yaw. You have to use whatever technique you feel comfortable with.

Section8

iTrader: (6)

My first time slowly laping a track I was taught by a very experience driver to shuffle and never hand over hand if possible, so fortunately I've already gotten into the habit of shuffling.

cruiser

What is shuffling ? Keeping your hands in aprox. 3-9 o'clock position most of the time (i.e. even through corners) ?

PureSephiroth

that is correct. Shuffling requires that you keep releasing the steering wheel making only small adjustments. Hand over hand is when you actually cross arms.

cruiser

Heh... I must be one of the few that use hand over hand.

What are the benefits of shuffling ?
Maybe its time to learn something new...

I like hand over hand as I feel much more in control and be able to perform quick opposite-locks, but I'm always willing to try new things...

SPiN Racing

I guess that with shuffle you are keeping your body firmly against the seat ( as if you were strapped in via a 5-7 point harness) and you dont have the luxury of getting closer to the wheel to do a flashy spin of the wheel one handed, or doing the cross over method.. all of which require you to be closer to the wheel.
Shuffle is more oriented to smaller turns requiring a lot more precise control.. the shuffle you are making much smaller movements of the wheel.. and not going to the lock in a half second.
If you were going to be drifting.. you would need to be closer to the wheel.. and be able to really spin that ****** so you can get to the locks a lot faster to help facilitate.. and control the slides.
If autocrossing.. you could prolly do either.. however doing the shuffle.. would be more precise... but I found over time that I shuffle in the smoother slalom type areas.. and sweepers.. and then hand over hand in the u-turns.. or REALLY tight gates.. (1st gear stuff).
Road racing.. that would be purely shuffle.. because you are basically Never going to make a full turn of the wheel. You MAY make a full turn pulling out of your pit spot.. but other than that.. it is all smooth turns of 0-90 degrees... at the MOST.. even the safety-pin at Sebring IIRC it is only 180 on the wheel at most.. and that is if you overshoot a little...

Soooooooo Basically Unless you are on a road race track.. dont worry about it.. you will prolly drive as needed where you need it.

Picture driving (Not that ANYONE would do this..(Yeah Right)) on the interstate at 130.. and coming to a long sweeper.. you are going to turn the wheel.. and you are not gonna let go of it to cross over.. you are gonna smoothly carefully make the turn and keep maximum control on the wheel.. doin the shuffle if you need to.

Picture trying to nab that parking space before your friend gets to it.. you are dipping across the lot weaving etc.. and turning HARD... you will cross over.. cause you need more speed on the steering wheel.. and not as much control.

cruiser

Funny... I feel I am much more precise not needing to let off the wheel with hand over hand...

But I guess its a matter of practice.

I do see one benefit, mentioned in first sentence - that your body is more firmly to the seat while shuffling opposed to hand over hand.

crazy0legz19

if you're gonna drift definately try hand-over-hand. the shuffle technique is too slow even if you practice...and hand over hand gets much quicker w/ practice. for myself shuffling while drifting is scary, you do keep ur hands at 3-9 but w/ practice that comes naturally w/ hand-over-hand. but if someone has a technique that works w/ shuffle tell me cause i'd like to try that out too.

PureSephiroth

^ that's what the 4th option in the poll is for.

peejay

How about bottom-rim shuffling?

That's how I tend to drive. It's not quite hand-over-hand (which is Evil), it's not quite shuffling either, it's a bit of both and a bit of neither. Kind of necessitated by the steering wheel being at an odd angle and too close to the pedals. Basically my hands rarely if ever go "north of the equator", and if I only have to turn so far then I just use one hand to move the wheel around, but if I have to go more than 180 then I shuffle (hands don't go past "south pole").

Sounds complicated but works like second nature.

Only when I find myself, uh, needing to correct a *lot*, do I find myself with my hands higher up. But only sometimes: a lot of times it's actually quicker and more precise to just let go of the wheel momentarily. FB self-corrects to an amazing degree...

Notes: Most of my "driving in anger" is done on less than paved surfaces.

SPiN Racing

ROFL Bottom Rim...

I have seen it done.. been in the car.. and honestly... It was TERRIFYING!!!

Granted the guy was going like a bat outta hell around Sebring..... but it was really scary to have this crusty old racer just tooling around all relaxed doing the bottom rim shuffle thing.. VERY casual way of driving.. BUT.. it worked for him.
Now granted... when we had a supercharged NSX catch up.. he sorta changed his driving position and turned it up a couple notches.. the hand position changed.. and then we REALLY went fast. We were in a STOCK 10 Annie... and sooo needless to say.. we were shortly passed.. and then he gave chase.. and we did ok for prolly 3/4 of a lap till the back drag strip/salt flats... and then the NSX engaged warp.. and that was that..

Seen the bottom shuffle.. smoooove.. sorta relaxed.. kinda like a sunday drive look to it.. but effective if done correctly..

MrZUMZUM

The group I run with road races, and they start you as novices with an instructor until you are safe and smooth enough to go solo. They will NOT sign off on you until you are able to shuffle steer. and all for a very good reason no one has mentioned yet.

Since many people are driving their street cars, they for the most part all have airbags. The thought is that if you are using hand over hand, and you spin, and hit something, at the time you hit it your hands could be potentially crossed over, which means when the airbag goes off it's time to meet Mr. Two Broken Arms. Made sense to me.

The best part is that learning to shuffle steer makes road racing a lot more effortless, when done properly.

I also use the technique when mowing my yard on my riding mower; I have dramatically improved my mowing times utilizing the shuffle technique, and find it much easier to hit the apexes.

; - )=

David

Mazinger

Professional drifters use the shuffle technique but in a way. Using the normal shuffle both hands should always be opposite but on the same level, ie: 9 and 3, 5 and 7, 11 and 1....etc
but in the drift shuffle one hand moves more than the other, for example your left hand would be at 11, but the right would be closer to the 4. In other words you shuffle with one hand more than the other. I find this technique best for driving in general. always keeps you in control no matter how fast you are going. also hand-over-hand is impossible in pro drifting because you are straped to your seat and cant move your shoulder as freely. it makes you look cool though (quite opposite of shuffle. old-guy looks)

i've seen some actually only steer with one hand and keep the other close to their knees. but i like the first one because you can use one hand for mre steering input and the other for less. if you are entering a hard corner which leads immdietly to a sweeper then it will make sense.

DamonB

Then the seating position of the driver is completely wrong.

Top 10 Driving Mistakes

Carl Byck

Shuffle. I instruct for NASA Norcal region, and shuffle is what we teach. Not that, that makes it right, but for the track, it's a no brainer for the reasons mentioned above. Rally on the other hand...

Mazinger

DamonB: I kind of meant the kind of hand-over-hand when you get your body really close to the steering wheel to do it. hand-over-hand at the top of the steering wheel (10 to 2) is possible, but using it at say between 2 and 3 (i've seen people do it!) makes it really hard to control the steering . I hope I'm making some sense.

Great link btw, and thanks for bringing the seating position subject on.