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Where to buy a Surge tank

Old 11-10-04, 11:41 PM
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Where to buy a Surge tank

They are a dime a dozen in Japan, and Austraila, but in the US, I cannot find one for a reasonable price. Do to time constraints, I would like to buy one ready made. I could certainly make one, but do not want to wait the two weeks to get the materials, and get it fabricated. In AU, and japan they can be had fro 75-100.00 US, here, the few companies selling them, are asking around twice that. If the can has AN fittings, the lower fitting needs to be a -10, and the balance, -8 fittings. Alternately, they could all be 1/2" FPT. Here is what I am talking about.
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/capa_fue..._aluminium.jpg
Thanks, Carl 707-696-2705
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Old 11-11-04, 12:15 AM
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Just looked at Racer Parts Wholesale, and they carry a surge tank from Fuel Safe for $119 - it's at least similar to what your're showing, but is square, and has either -6 or -8 fittings: Part number ST100=6 or ST100-8. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/

Looks like pegasus auto racing has the same items for $115: Part numbers 2538-6AN or 2538-8AN. http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Pro...p?Product=2538

Good luck.
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Old 11-11-04, 12:26 AM
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Thanks but those are internal. The one pictured in the above link is external, allowing the addition of a second pump mounted externaly. The advantage is(over the internal) that you can run extremely high fuel pressures using your existing intank pump, and adding this externally. In addition, my application requires ~500hp worth of fuel to a road race car, at something like 70psi. This is very difficult without using two internal pumps, but then you still have not addressed scavenging. Anyway, thanks. Carl
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Old 11-11-04, 01:21 AM
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When I had my radiator built I had the same guy put a surge tank together for me. All custom, built to my design. Arrived on my door step less than a week after I emailed them the drawing. Price was $100. http://www.alumrad.com/
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Old 11-11-04, 03:30 AM
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Hello Carl,
rotary extreme used to carry this tank with 1 or 2 inline fuel pumps. I don't see it in their new website however. www.rotaryextreme.com, call him and see if he still has it.
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Old 11-11-04, 09:35 AM
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I would definitely have one welded together if you are not handy with a MIG welder. A metal supermarket-type store will have whatever metal you want to use (Al/SS/Mild Steel) and you can get the -AN fittings from Summit. It'll be cheaper this way and you can get the exact dimensions that you need.

I had a local shop weld up my old aluminum setup, this time around I'm going to do it myself with my MIG and stainless.

A note on the setup so everyone knows how it works- the in-tank or external pump feeding the surge tank will end up seeing zero/very low pressure when it pumps gas from the fuel tank to the surge tank (there is no regulator involved). Because of this, whatever in-tank pump you are using will pump out a bit more than it is rated at 40 or 50 psi. The other option is to use pump meant for a carb setup- they are high volume/lower pressure pumps- I use a Holley Red carb fuel pump ($50 or less on eBay, pumps around 100 gph) to feed my surge tank, then a single Walbro to my engine. The high pressure Walbro pumps should be good for 550hp based on the flow charts I've looked at. The setup won't allow you to get any additional fuel pressure, it'll just ensure a constant supply of fuel to the high pressure fuel pump in all conditions.

Finally- a note on sizing- to figure out what size is necessary for the surge tank(s), look at the flow rate for your high pressure pump. If it flows 60 gph, then a half gallon surge tank will last for 30 seconds without getting any gas from the main tank.
Also, a note on low pressure pump sizing- be sure that your low pressure pump flows a bit more than your high pressure pump(s) or else the high pressure pumps will drain the surge tank before the low pressure feed can refill it.

For anyone thinking of tracking their car, these setups are the best insurance against fuel starvation.

Ben
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Old 11-11-04, 02:04 PM
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Bens got it, but one note when sizing the pumps. The rating on the in tank pump is its max flow at ~0 pressure, ie a Walbro 255lph pump would be rated at 255lph, that gets compared to the "at pressure" rating of the large pump(say 70 psi on a turbo application). So, you can see nearly any existing in tank pump will be able to keep up with nearly any external pump. In my case, I am using a Bosch motorsports "028" in tank pump, and an Aeromotive A1000 external pump. This combo should easily support 600hp. So actually even a stock internal pump should be able to keep up with a very large external pump. Carl
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Old 11-11-04, 05:09 PM
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A "hot wired" (14.4 volts vs. stock 12.2 volts) single Walbro 340 (255lph hi pressure) intank pump using 12 guage wire and a relay off the alternator can safely support 600hp as tested by Precision Turbo & Engine using stock Buick GN fuel lines (3/8" with many kinks).

Scroll down and check out the 7 links above "Diagnosis."
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuel.../fuelpage.html

Walbro flow rates:
http://home.pacbell.net/sfnelson/wal...307_340-2.html

I've heard the Aeromotive pump life can be measured in hours.... plus they aren't rebuildable like a Weldon ($$$).

-Mark
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Old 11-11-04, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl Byck
Bens got it, but one note when sizing the pumps. The rating on the in tank pump is its max flow at ~0 pressure, ie a Walbro 255lph pump would be rated at 255lph, that gets compared to the "at pressure" rating of the large pump(say 70 psi on a turbo application). So, you can see nearly any existing in tank pump will be able to keep up with nearly any external pump. In my case, I am using a Bosch motorsports "028" in tank pump, and an Aeromotive A1000 external pump. This combo should easily support 600hp. So actually even a stock internal pump should be able to keep up with a very large external pump. Carl
Not only that, but the tranfer pump only needs to supply the average consumption of the engine while the high-pressure pump must supply the peak consumption of the engine, presuming the surge tank is sized appropriately for the difference between peak and average consumption rates.
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Old 11-11-04, 06:53 PM
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I definitely agree that Walbro's can push 600hp (it's a fact, how could I disagree??)- even better graphs (and a great place to buy from) are here:

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/

Also- no need to grab unfiltered power off the alternator- put a voltmeter on the battery terminals while the car is running and you'll see what I mean.


Ben
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Old 11-11-04, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gnx7
A "hot wired" (14.4 volts vs. stock 12.2 volts) single Walbro 340 (255lph hi pressure) intank pump using 12 guage wire and a relay off the alternator can safely support 600hp as tested by Precision Turbo & Engine using stock Buick GN fuel lines (3/8" with many kinks).

Scroll down and check out the 7 links above "Diagnosis."
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuel.../fuelpage.html

Walbro flow rates:
http://home.pacbell.net/sfnelson/wal...307_340-2.html

I've heard the Aeromotive pump life can be measured in hours.... plus they aren't rebuildable like a Weldon ($$$).

-Mark
Mark, in theory alot of pumps will support the HP we are talking about, however they are not pumping while a car is moving uphill, while accelerating from~40-100mph @ .5Gs through 10 feet of line, and a fuel rail. In real life a GSS341 is good for 450rwhp at up to about 65psi with ideal conditions, beyond that it just dies. My Bosch pump, should in theory perform the same as the Walbro, but I am not relying upon that. Alot also depends on if everything else is operating perfectly. This set-up allows for dirty filters, low voltage, cornering in the opposite direction of the fuel line(left to right) at over a G, etc. Many Sevens have died on the track from too little fuel(using alot more pump than the Walbro). This pretty much eliminates that potential, and since I paid 125.00 for the New A1000 I think it is a fine deal. At 70psi the A1000 will flow 75gph, compare this to your GN graph, the HP Walbro is flowing 45gph at the same psi. The A1000 will only see the track, so if it is true that this 400.00 plus pump only lasts 300-500 hours(doubt it) I should still be fine. Last, the consequences of running out of fuel in a GN, are a little different than in a Rotary Peace brother...

BTW, bring over one of those 335 hoosiers sometime, and we'll see if it'll fit under my FC.

Last edited by Carl Byck; 11-11-04 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 11-11-04, 08:03 PM
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good points as well- always overbuild on the fuel system, especially those running rotaries.
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Old 11-13-04, 11:35 AM
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Surge Tank

Originally Posted by Carl Byck
They are a dime a dozen in Japan, and Austraila, but in the US, I cannot find one for a reasonable price. Do to time constraints, I would like to buy one ready made. I could certainly make one, but do not want to wait the two weeks to get the materials, and get it fabricated. In AU, and japan they can be had fro 75-100.00 US, here, the few companies selling them, are asking around twice that. If the can has AN fittings, the lower fitting needs to be a -10, and the balance, -8 fittings. Alternately, they could all be 1/2" FPT. Here is what I am talking about.
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/capa_fue..._aluminium.jpg
Thanks, Carl 707-696-2705
Carl call Chuck at Rotary Extreme. I have been using his for years with no problem. I usually run 5 gallons of fuel or less when autoxing and never ever have any problems. Chuck can get you one similar to mine or smaller if you like.

Allan
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Old 11-13-04, 12:04 PM
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Thing is Chuck wants 250.00 for it, the can pictured above is 125.00. I just did not want to wait for it from AU. Of course I would have had it by now if I had ordered when I started this. I have found blanks for cheap, I think I am going to make several of them up. They will also feature an internal baffle of sorts, so you can run it down to the last ounce of fuel. Carl
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