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TII brake upgrade options (BIG BRAKES)

Old 03-27-06, 12:58 PM
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TII brake upgrade options (BIG BRAKES)

It is time for bigger brakes for my TII race car. I am looking preferably for a kit that has already been engineered, as opposed to fabricating my own set-up, or having someone fab a kit and being the guinea pig . I beleive N-Tech Engineering had some Alcon set-ups, but I cannot seem to access their web page, I keep getting a re-direct... I know Endless has several options, but I do not know of any racers using them. I have checked Stop Tech, Brembo, and AP, and I cannot find anything that has been engineered for the application. I run 16" wheels, but I can accomodate a ~13-1/4 rotor, as the wheels fit over my 97 Supra brakes(except for wheel pad height, which I can solve) Thanks in advance, Carl
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Old 03-27-06, 01:12 PM
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Keep in mind I know nothing about TII's...

I know the front calipers of the FD and TII are the same. Does that mean the master cylinder bore is the same as well? If it is then you could use parts from an FD big brake kit (for the fronts at least) and perhaps need nothing more than custom hats to make the rotors fit?
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Old 03-27-06, 01:43 PM
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I did no realize that Damon, as far as a Master cylinder, I can change that. I was contemplating Supra, or Viper fronts, but I really want a kit i possible. I think I will likely need a larger master cylinder, and I would like to do the rears at the same time. Eventually I will buy a good properly prepped EP shell, and transfer everything off my car onto it. The only thing I'd need to do is the rear body work. My car is simply not going to get down below~2600lbs as it sits. Carl
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Old 03-27-06, 02:29 PM
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With an FD big brake kit, besides definately needing to change the rotor hat which is quite simple, you may also need to fabricate different brackets for a new caliper.

Endless, Wilwood and other high dollar kits for FD's are available obviously, but if you're going to spend any amount of serious money, you may as well go with the best...AP or Brembo.

Corksport has new upgraded (larger diameter) rotors for the rear of the FC which work with the stock rear caliper.

In the same link but down the page some, I'm sure you are already aware of the AP big bucks kit for the FC. They also offer it with 14" rotors and/or 6-pot calipers. You're best option for obtaining those brakes is to go through Brits in Sonoma and cut out the middle man (Corksport). Brits is no longer at the track but down the road some.
http://corksport.com/store/category/...rx-Brakes.html
http://www.britsinc.com/

Another option is to go with the two-piece rotors from AWR. This would be your cheapest alternative and is what I am using currently. The rotors are only minimally larger but use much better design over stock or other aftermarket replacement rotors. They still use the stock calipers, font and rear.
http://www.awrracing.com/pages/rx/rxbrakes.html

Replacing the stock master cylinder with one from a 626 is a simple swap. The 626 mc has a larger bore to compensate for the increased volume needed from larger calipers.

Also, a proprtioning valve will most likely be needed.
http://www.tiltonracing.com/content....ist2&id=36&m=b
Originally Posted by Carl Byck
My car is simply not going to get down below~2600lbs as it sits.
That is still a featherweight

Last edited by RX-Heven; 03-27-06 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 03-27-06, 05:46 PM
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what are hats??? i like this idea??? but give me a more direct term lol
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Old 03-28-06, 01:01 AM
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Hats are the centers of the disc, generally aluminum to save weight vs a full cast iron rotor. I will look at AP most likely, and piece them together, the calipers are ~500.00-700.00 each, the Rotors will be ~250 for the rotors, plus custom hats(spec in known to AP). We'll probably make the brackets unless someone like KVR, or N-Tech will sell parts. I know there are off the shelf kits for Alcon, and AP, but they are hard to source for a decent price, six pots are ~4500, and ~2600.00 for the four pots. I will also see if I can make Supra fronts work, they are relatively easy to come by, and clear my wheels. IIRC they are a little over 13.2 inches in diameter.
Still looking for folks with real track experience. Problem is the EP, and most GT cars are ~2200lbs, and under 300hp I am 2900, and 500hp... Carl
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Old 03-28-06, 01:03 AM
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That's hot.
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Old 03-28-06, 01:41 AM
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Just grazing by here.. havent been here in months. Been kinda busy...

Ntech I do not think exists anymore. I know Nick thumbed his nose at the whole RX community a while back... year or two?
Bought a 350Z and deemed it the NTECH car. And around that time he changed the name of ntech to something else. Too much baggage on that name I guess.

Anyhow.. I dont think he is doing any re-badging of other peoples products anymore. And NO he never made any of the things himself. Just got it from others and put a N-Tech sticker on it. Big laughs about that around central Florida. Good guy.. but would simply buy the products from elsewhere.

Scott
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Old 03-28-06, 03:28 PM
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I know of a cheaper option for you. Precision Brakes Company (http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/) makes a wilwood kit for the FC (front only) that has 325mm x 22mm (12.8" x 0.87") 2 piece rotors (option of plain, slotted, drilled, drilled and slotted), 4 piston Dynalite calipers, SS lines, pads, brakets, and hardware. They are $1149 for the kit. They list brake kits for hundreds of cars, so who knows how well engineered they are. They are also a Wilwood dealer, so you may be able to get them to change the kit around a bit to have different calipers (like larger 6 pots maybe) and maybe even larger, thicker rotors.

I had the N-tech site bookmarked, and it worked last week, but I get a redirect now too, so they may be out of business, or the domain subscription may just have expired.
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Old 03-28-06, 05:57 PM
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Old 03-28-06, 08:29 PM
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Those are very nice, except K2RD went out of business a few years ago.

I think you can probably make your own kit from Wilwood components too, they also sell rotors and hats, and if you know the offset you want you can get some off the shelf components and assemble your own kit. If you can get the right rotors then the only things that may cause problems should be the lines and the caliper mounting brakets.
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Old 03-28-06, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Black91n/a
I know of a cheaper option for you. Precision Brakes Company (http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/) makes a wilwood kit for the FC (front only) that has 325mm x 22mm (12.8" x 0.87") 2 piece rotors (option of plain, slotted, drilled, drilled and slotted), 4 piston Dynalite calipers, SS lines, pads, brakets, and hardware. They are $1149 for the kit. They list brake kits for hundreds of cars, so who knows how well engineered they are. They are also a Wilwood dealer, so you may be able to get them to change the kit around a bit to have different calipers (like larger 6 pots maybe) and maybe even larger, thicker rotors.

I had the N-tech site bookmarked, and it worked last week, but I get a redirect now too, so they may be out of business, or the domain subscription may just have expired.
I also say go with Precision. However, to correct Black91n/a, the kit is actually $1350. I was actually on the phone with them today. Guy I delt with, his name is Kevin and was very helpful in the discussion we were having. My brother bought a kit from them for his Nissan and he has no complaints.
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Old 03-29-06, 12:08 AM
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I see now that they mention on the link to the PDF of the catalogue that the prices have changed, as of now the PDF they have on their site lists the price as $1149.
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Old 03-29-06, 12:31 AM
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Thanks guys, keep it coming. Anyone have the Wilwood part numbers, and caliper height for the 6 pot set-up? I know AP also makes one, so in time I'll get it figured out. Carl
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Old 03-29-06, 01:50 AM
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a 929 master cylinder is a direct bolt in IIRC...

ilike2eatricers used the 929 master on his TII I think....
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Old 03-29-06, 07:00 PM
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Carl,
I have the K2RD 6 piston Wilwood billet superlite 6 caliper kit with 12" rotors(could be larger). Only part which is not off the shelf is the adapter from the OEM mazda mount to the 5.25" wilwood mount. This is made from a piece of 1/2" thick steel plate with the two sets of holes drilled at the appropriate spots. This is very easy to make or have made. only need a few simple measurements. Hat is from wilwood and so is rotor. Some of the kits I have seen are built mainly for street looks and do not increase clamping force substantially. Its all about the piston size. I had to abandon the stock master cylinder though as it was very touchy and would lock easily. I could not find a m/c with the correct bore that would work with the mazda brake booster, so I had to switch to a manual brake setup. this is a simpler project than it apprears. I did not know that Paul at K2Rd was out of business as this setup works well on my car. Only had to swap out some warped rotors(my fault) in more than 3 years of racing. yes, still on the original pads.
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Old 03-30-06, 04:49 PM
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Thanks Tim. I gather the Wilwood caliper height is similar to the OEM 4 piston? I wonder if I could go to a deeper hat(and offset bracket), moving the assembly inboard to allow a larger caliper? Do you think the calipers you have coupled with a larger rotor would be sufficient for my car? Are the Wilwood part numbers on your parts, or do you know them? This way I could replicate the kit. What made the aftermarket MC incompatable with the stock booster? There are AP kits built on the same premise as the K2RD set-up, thoughts? I wonder if my larger slicks would be sufficient to prevent the lock-up you encountered? I was going to use the DPI/Sierra recirculator, and antilock rear brake delay system as well.
Thanks, Carl
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Old 03-30-06, 08:24 PM
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paul also had some dual master brackets made, that bolt to the fc firewall and hold 2 willwood masters. i know he's got a bunch of those. if you bug me about it, i know he's got the part numbers and drawings and stuff.
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Old 03-31-06, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl Byck
It is time for bigger brakes for my TII race car. I am looking preferably for a kit that has already been engineered, as opposed to fabricating my own set-up, or having someone fab a kit and being the guinea pig . I beleive N-Tech Engineering had some Alcon set-ups, but I cannot seem to access their web page, I keep getting a re-direct... I know Endless has several options, but I do not know of any racers using them. I have checked Stop Tech, Brembo, and AP, and I cannot find anything that has been engineered for the application. I run 16" wheels, but I can accomodate a ~13-1/4 rotor, as the wheels fit over my 97 Supra brakes(except for wheel pad height, which I can solve) Thanks in advance, Carl
Carl, some questions for you... why do you feel you need to go with bigger brakes on your car? I'm just wondering what symptoms and short-comings you're experiencing with your current set-up. How is the air intake to the brakes set-up? What pads do you run? TIA for the information.

-Bern
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Old 04-01-06, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by j9fd3s
paul also had some dual master brackets made, that bolt to the fc firewall and hold 2 willwood masters. i know he's got a bunch of those. if you bug me about it, i know he's got the part numbers and drawings and stuff.
That would be great, I was playing with some Supra brakes today, and it looks like I can fit a rotor around 12.75-13". My wheels have an ID of ~15.25 inches. If I could get the info on the 6 piston Wilwood setup that would be great. Did anyone do a rear set-up to compliment the fronts?

Bern, I have not had any failures, but when I come off the track after ten minutes the brakes are smoking. I am seeing front straight speeds at Thunderhill in excess of 135mph(lifting two thirds of the way down the straight), and braking from 120mph to 40 at T13, I feel the brakes are up to three or four 9/10th laps, after that I do not know. I am running AWR ducts and Carbotech XP10 pads with Motul 600 fluid. Without the ducting I would boil fresh motul 600 in two hot laps. I think the recirculator, and rear brake delay will help alot, but not enough for me to be comfortable at WOT all the way down to T1, T10, and T13. In short they are fine to turn two maybe three laps flat out, but not the 15 plus laps I would see in a race. There are too many places were I shold be braking later. I can brake far later in my RA1 tired Supra than I can in my slick tired RX7......

So let's keep the info coming, someone must have the AP specs, and the Alcons. I wonder if Paul calculated how much more piston area each set-up offered, or if it was mainly price driven? Also what is the barrier to using a single MC designed for the lager brakes? Thanks, Carl
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Old 04-01-06, 01:45 AM
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A long time freind of my dad's races a BMW 2002 in SCCA GT3 and SPU. He thought he had good breaks untill he upgraded to larger, much thicker front rotors and Wilwood calipers, along with new, different master cylinders, and he said that it made a world of difference, and that he was much more confident about the breaks and could break later. In a practice after the swap he was on par with his personal best at that particular track when he had an unfortunate crash, and that was only on his 9th lap (IIRC). So if he'd kept going he'd likely have gone even faster.

Here's a link to a site with a pic and breif description of the car. He's Jeff Roberts, the top car on the page, it's very fast, with lots of trick parts. I definetely enjoy going to the races and helping out with it.

http://www.zeebuck.com/02bc/memgallery.html

500hp generates a lot of speed which needs to be turned into heat by the breaks, and that's a lot of heat.

Even if you're not totally cooking the brakes, bigger ones can help keep pad life reasonable and can allow pads to be run that don't destroy rotors. Besides, it's best to have full confidence in your setup, as it'll allow you to commit more fully under breaking and that'll drop lap times.

The only rear set I've ever seen for the FC is the corksport one. I suppose you could do a custom setup back there too, and it'd be easier than a rear set up would be normally because it's a race car and doesn't need a parking brake.

For master cylinders, running a single you're usually limited by the piston size and stroke, making it hard to push enough fluid to satisfy the needs of larger calipers. As you go to larger calipers they usually have more piston area, so require more fluid displacement. For a dual system you can use smaller MC's and still have more fluid displacement than a large single, and you can use a balance bar, enabling a better tuning of brake bias.

The specs of the AP and Wilwood calipers are available on their websites, but I didn't see specs anywhere on the Alcon site if they are there.
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Old 04-01-06, 07:51 AM
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Carl,
I made aluminum brackets for Rx-Ben to fit a Stoptech 13" rotor and big red calipers for an Integra Type R, onto his FC. Besides the custom brackets, the only other machining was making the center hole (hub register) of the rotor hat larger to fit the FC front hub. The Stoptechs are awesome kits and the fitment was pretty damn nice. I think the ITR kit is under $1800 and the machine work is cheap enough, I could make you brackets for $100 if you want to go that route.

I also found Precision Brakes and theyre stuff looks great, you might want a larger caliper but their FC kit as-is might be fine because of the rotor being so much larger.

but, for the cost, the AWR 2-piece rotors look like a very nice part, since the cooling vanes are much better than oem Mazda rotors.
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Old 04-02-06, 09:25 AM
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Someone in here must know what the I.D. of the stock rotors are front and rear. Please help keep my lazy *** on the computer searching for brake components and not in the garage removing and measuring.

Thanks, Matt
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Old 04-03-06, 12:35 AM
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To some up, ~2k is about what I'd like to spend, maybe 500 more, and some larger rear rotors with either stock calipers, or some reasonabe four piston set-up(figuring 3500 front, and rear including a new dual MC). I want to be sure the fronts, and rears are well matched, and that the MC is up to the task. Owen, you said Big red, do you mean StopTechs, or Porsche? As I said earlier I have 16" wheels, but a little over 15" inside. J9, or Tim, can you get the Wilwood part #s for the six piston setup? I have a hub, a stock disc, a stock caliper, and a Supra front rotor sitting here, I just need to do the meauring. Anyone have a link to a good worksheet for measuring your set-up? Thanks, Carl
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Old 04-03-06, 12:12 PM
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heh heh, yeah big reds, theyre big and theyre red
yes the Stoptech calipers. Ben has them under a 17" CCW but I think they might fit under a high clearance 16" race wheel... maybe...
here's a pic:
http://homepage.mac.com/owen_the_soy...m/whammy01.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/owen_the_soy...m/whammy26.jpg

the nice part about the Stoptech ITR setup is that it was designed for a similar brake setup as the FC, with the MC size and bore between the two chassis very close in specs.
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