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My AutoX setup isn't working - what do I change?

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My AutoX setup isn't working - what do I change?

Old 03-10-07, 08:00 PM
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Unhappy My AutoX setup isn't working - what do I change?

Went to practice today. The rear end was loose, all over the place even did 360's. I changed the coilover settings to +15/F & +0/R which stop the 360's but she still is too loose over 6krpms'. I'm having a hard time how to figure out how to drive on this kind of course with my single. In my CRX I wouldn't ever use the brakes and keep it close to redline. With my 500R once rpm's drop below 3k, then there is no power to recover. My spool delay kicks in when it's time to brake. I tried riding the clutch and no brake keeping rpm's around 5k but my tires just won't hold. I know my rear Pirelli P6000 suck but i'm buying time untill I can get track wheels instead of using one set for both. The go kart looked so much more fun!

Anyhow, the top two cars were
1. (Silver) Ferrari Modena 60.1
2. (grey) Corvette Z06 60.2
(approximate, rounded off)
& I ran mostly a 78.3 D'oh!
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Old 03-10-07, 11:41 PM
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you need more grip, buy some r compounds tires
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Old 03-11-07, 11:48 AM
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Get rid of the p6000's! That should cure most of the problems
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Old 03-11-07, 12:37 PM
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The tires are not ideal but you should work with what you have and work on your driving. To a point a driver can make up for a lot of ills by changing driving style. Have a good driver from your area with a fast FR car try yours out. You should get within a few seconds of the fastest stock class cars before you make drastic changes.

Without knowing your alignment settings it is hard to say. I would go get it checked and make sure it is close to what you want. I would try a touch of toe-in in the rear or more camber in the rear to fix the oversteer. Also turn the boost down and work on being smooth.
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Old 03-11-07, 12:49 PM
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are you running different tires in the front and back?


ALso if you can adjust shocks. You could soften them up a little.

IS your rear end coming loose on hard breaking?

But mostly.... You should work on your foot work. ON singles You HAVE TO! learn how to floor it when bogged and ease of gas when you feel boost kicking in.

To my it sounds like you cant handle the power. Try turning the boost down. U might get better lap times since you will be more comfortable and will be able to go WOT a bigger % of the track.

chris.
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Old 03-11-07, 01:14 PM
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Seriously the p6000 is that bad. I had them on my car when I finished my ls1 swap and the car was all over the place when driven hard. I replaced them after a couple thousand miles with some cheap falken 451's and the difference was night and day! The only good thing I have to say about the p6000 is they were quiet.
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Old 03-11-07, 01:33 PM
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I agree with junito1, it sounds like you have a great drag racing power band but not good for auto-x. Beyond that, have you tried left foot braking while having your foot on the gas in a turn? That way you can keep some boost built up without having to have such high RPM's.
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Old 03-11-07, 04:58 PM
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Track alignment allready done.

Coilovers allready adjusted. 15 licks hard front and 0 clicks soft rear.

Turning boost down won't help, most of the track doesn't even go past 5krpm. I may switch to a smaller A/R snail. I don't want to change gears. I may change them in the future but only 4.33 or possible 4.44 but not 4.77.

I haven't tried left foot brake or that techniq where you hold the gas and brake together. THat may helb cause comming off the brake out the the turn it's boggy with no power then sling shot when it's time to brake again.

Yeah, those tires suck but those rims are supposed to be my street set. I thought I would have got my Buddy Club track wheels allready but I can't get 10 people. I still ahve alot of other things so I have to be conservative on my budget. Those tires have like 1/2 life left.

Well I failed tech inspection today for my battery relocation. I needed that 2nd race for Mazdacomp. I will got there monday and see if they will still let me in conditionally.
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Old 03-11-07, 05:57 PM
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Just turn the boost down man.... why are you even talking gearing and diff turbos for...

You just cant handle the car. My suggestion to you.... EVery time it rains where ever u live.
Hop in the damn car and go all the way to 4th gear with out over spinning. ANd do this till you have mastered that crap! Once you learned this. U might be ready for fast laps. A bad *** car is worthless without a good driver.
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Old 03-11-07, 06:23 PM
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18seconds off???? I think it's the driver....mebbe you're overdriving a bit. Tires and suspensions usually gain you a couple of seconds on a 60s course. How do you place against other class?

Get an experience driver to pilot your car to see what it can do then you can gauge where to starting fixing. I run a GT40R and it's laggy but I don't have that much problem. Good luck and just have fun for now....oh yeah, get rid of the P6000...for sure.
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Old 03-11-07, 06:33 PM
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air pressure?
spring rates?
how long have you been autocrossing?
go to evolution autocross school.
does your region give free instructors? use them.
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Old 03-11-07, 07:13 PM
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It's not overpowered. No need to turn the boost down, it's only at 10lbs. Why wouldn't I be mentioning gears (there's no low end)? The guy that won the last 3 years in the carbon fiber caged RX7 ran a GT35R and 4.77 gears. He doesn't list what size A/R though.

Well my car is put in (Super Modified) SM2. I may look in to other classes. There were going to let me run in CST I think it was today. I'll have to see if there's another class cause the two top drivers are the Ferrari and the Z06. I know the Z06 is SM2 but i'm not shure about the Ferrari. That thing looks so easy to drive with traction control and clutchless paddle shifter.

I may just have to get rid of the Pirrelis if I can't get my track wheels. The car is just too loose. There is no oversteer. I did have an instructor drive my car last race and he got the same time I did this week, about a 78 and my best was like 94.
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Old 03-12-07, 01:30 AM
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SM2 = Street Mod 2 (2 seats) Andy (AMRX7) runs a GT35R and 4.77 and he can drive so he smokes most ppl. There's no CST class...CSP would be all those Miatas running about. The other non-mod or prepared class would prolly be ASP...but not with a big turbo on there.

Anyhoo, if you're "loose" you have to have oversteer...unless you mean push which is understeer. Are you not getting power down? Laggy of exits? Just plain lack of grip? Mebbe you're too aggressive with the steering inputs...try to make quick both smooth turns. And preturn to get the tire to bite...I never really needed to preturn in our local lot since it's concrete but when I ran Packwood @ the Nat Tour, I learned I'd better else I'll be late for most cones.

Originally Posted by GoRacer
It's not overpowered. No need to turn the boost down, it's only at 10lbs. Why wouldn't I be mentioning gears (there's no low end)? The guy that won the last 3 years in the carbon fiber caged RX7 ran a GT35R and 4.77 gears. He doesn't list what size A/R though.

Well my car is put in (Super Modified) SM2. I may look in to other classes. There were going to let me run in CST I think it was today. I'll have to see if there's another class cause the two top drivers are the Ferrari and the Z06. I know the Z06 is SM2 but i'm not shure about the Ferrari. That thing looks so easy to drive with traction control and clutchless paddle shifter.

I may just have to get rid of the Pirrelis if I can't get my track wheels. The car is just too loose. There is no oversteer. I did have an instructor drive my car last race and he got the same time I did this week, about a 78 and my best was like 94.
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Old 03-12-07, 03:04 AM
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I can't connect to solo2. I thought she said CSP, somethign starting with C. It was the 4th group so I should be able to pick it out. There was another turbo RX7 class but it was by year, so only 2nd gens. I guess the Ferarri is in some kind of stock class cause his engine was stock.

It's not oversteer because she isn't turning in too soon and counter steering, right? I'm being too agressive out of the turns and she's drifting a bit. The front end is is strait or on target, just her *** is dancing like Shakira. No push either cause i'm turning instead of going strait in to the cones. I can even finish the 180 in to a 360 and finish the course but all that dancing costs me too much time. Oversteer would take me in to the cones then i'd have to counter steer, correct? I tend to brake late and use all of the track but i'm not on streetbike and I shouldn't try for the wholeshot off the line either "lol". If I can't get my track wheels before the next practice i'll ditch those Pirelli's.

The Z06 is running slicks but I can't remember what the Ferrari was wearing. Well if that carborn fiber RX7 is still racing, there's no way I could beat him even if I was alot better then I am but I don't think he's in the same class. The time guy told me to slow down. There's alot of loose gravel crap and you can see it stuck on the slicks.

Hedgehog - your GT40R should be pretty close to my 500R. what is your setup? coilovers, what size tires and brand, you running 15lbs, you stay in 2nd or hit 3rd on straits.

Last edited by GoRacer; 03-12-07 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 03-12-07, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 2MCHPWR
air pressure?
spring rates?
how long have you been autocrossing?
go to evolution autocross school.
does your region give free instructors? use them.
10/10kg (and set full stiff front and full soft rear).

legaly, 2nd time out. 1st race no practice. 2nd time practice no race - failed tech. Use to canyon run in MR2, CRX and street bike (allegedly), aslo some dirt bike motoX and desert.

Trying to do NASA school but they require race license and haven't done my medical yet.

Yes, had instructor drive with me the 1st race. he races an RX8. he didn't give me any pointers though. i should ahve asked to do several runs with him but he just wanted to drive my car "lol".
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Old 03-12-07, 08:48 AM
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Anytime you're 18 seconds back it's not the car.

Quit trying to drive over your head and get one of the experienced locals to ride along with you and explain what you're doing wrong.

Don't drive the turbo, drive the course.
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Old 03-12-07, 09:11 AM
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I agree with Damon. It's the driver, you need more experience. I went from a fwd car to now my FD, and it took me a while to get use to the totally different feel of the FD compared to a fwd that pushes. I was actually faster in my eclipse than I was my FD at first. Finally last event I got FTD(locally), after about 15 events in the car. And I would have never been able to do that in my eclipse.

I was also faster on lower boost at first because it was easier to control the rear end from kicking out.
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Old 03-12-07, 10:09 AM
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Ferrari and Z06 will be SS or ASP...iirc. Unless they're majorly modded.

Anyhoo, from my beginner days...all corner entry understeer (especially what's deemed massive understeer) is driver induced. Brake earlier and smoother so the car is settled and not abruptly transferring weight from back to front. Don't whip the car into the corner. I find that FDs like a bit of trail braking to get front traction and it also likes a steady state corner. That funky multilink rear adjusts rear toe too much if you're on/off the gas during cornering. And WRT exit oversteer, you're gonna get that running P6000 w/ a 500R. Just patient and gas as much as the tires can take.

I'm only running 1bar and on our courses, we stay mostly in 2nd. I may hit the rev limiter on occasion (rare). I find shifting is a waste of time and increases the chances of a boo boo. I run rather soft...650F/350R...I think Andy runs 1000/800 (yikes). But a large sweet spot is prolly better for a lousy driver like me. Tires are V710 @ 38psi. For you, try running 38-42 psi. I found street tires feel more crisp on high pressures. You may want to soften the front dampers a smidge to get more traction...some dampers (like Konis) closes the valve when set at full hard, reducing its effectiveness.

But just remember, 1st rule in autox is having fun. Keep it up and get seat time. Don't worry about beating people. You'll soon find out where to make changes...car setup, mods, or driving habits.

Oh, the CF car sounds like Jeff Kiesel's (sp?) old car...BP Nat Champ. Don't bother chasing that...not gonna get close.



Originally Posted by GoRacer
I can't connect to solo2. I thought she said CSP, somethign starting with C. It was the 4th group so I should be able to pick it out. There was another turbo RX7 class but it was by year, so only 2nd gens. I guess the Ferarri is in some kind of stock class cause his engine was stock.

It's not oversteer because she isn't turning in too soon and counter steering, right? I'm being too agressive out of the turns and she's drifting a bit. The front end is is strait or on target, just her *** is dancing like Shakira. No push either cause i'm turning instead of going strait in to the cones. I can even finish the 180 in to a 360 and finish the course but all that dancing costs me too much time. Oversteer would take me in to the cones then i'd have to counter steer, correct? I tend to brake late and use all of the track but i'm not on streetbike and I shouldn't try for the wholeshot off the line either "lol". If I can't get my track wheels before the next practice i'll ditch those Pirelli's.

The Z06 is running slicks but I can't remember what the Ferrari was wearing. Well if that carborn fiber RX7 is still racing, there's no way I could beat him even if I was alot better then I am but I don't think he's in the same class. The time guy told me to slow down. There's alot of loose gravel crap and you can see it stuck on the slicks.

Hedgehog - your GT40R should be pretty close to my 500R. what is your setup? coilovers, what size tires and brand, you running 15lbs, you stay in 2nd or hit 3rd on straits.
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Old 03-12-07, 10:22 AM
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10/10 Kg spring rates? I agree some of it is your technique, but it sounds like you're also a victim of japanese equal coilover rates to some extent... and a big turbo that you haven't learned to work with yet.
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Old 03-12-07, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GoRacer
Yes, had instructor drive with me the 1st race. he races an RX8. he didn't give me any pointers though. i should ahve asked to do several runs with him but he just wanted to drive my car "lol".
I don't seem to recall it going that way ..... If you chose not to listen to what I said that is up to you. I find it very disappointing that with almost two months between events you did not bother to fix the battery that you slipped by with the first time. Before you do anything else you need to give your car some TLC, battery, door panel falling off etc are all things that are not safe and you should not be allowed to run your car in that condition.

That said the single biggest improvement you can make to that car is R compound tires. Go to 7parts.com and read up on the SM2 RX7's, Beth's and Andy's. Some 18X9 to11 wheels with 285-30-18 would help to tame that beast. While the race tires will make the car faster and your experience more enjoyable, you still need to work on the driver more than anything, hit all the practice and races you can.

btw your time from the previous event can not be compared to this event, as the courses is completely different every time.

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Old 03-12-07, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HedgeHog
Tires are V710 @ 38psi.
Yikes! I run 10 psi less than that. They feel better to the driver at higher pressures, but they are definitely faster at lower ones.
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Old 03-12-07, 12:43 PM
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I run 35 on my tires, haven't raised them to 40. I don't want the car to push from too much air.

UllLose - No dissrespect intended. I did very much appreciate you helping me out and as I said I should have asked you to do more then one run and watched your techniq or driving style. You were over 15 seconds faster in my car then I was, so it shows it can be done. You were very agressive but never lost the rear end and not in the turns. That day I needed help finding and understanding the entry and direction cones. I got lost in between sections. I just wanted some points. I've spent about $70k to date including the car itself and it's no where near 7parts.com's cars! So i'm really frustrated and need the Mazdacomp membership. I didn't think the battery was a problem. It's in there solid, just not mounted to the body floor. The door panel I threw on because I had to put my stock mirrors back on and lost the screws. I've allready bought the mag and read the 7parts site weeks ago. He runs 513 or 335 slicks on 16 rims. It has a tube body with a carbon shell. The only similarity is the engine and turbo.

So anyway, yes I need to get some things fixed (A/C, battery tray wlded in, AST, 2nd oil cooler, etc). I don't go under it as much as I used to as it is now my primary car since my 4x4 gets 12mpg. I would have sold it but i'll easily loose $20k and would still need a backup car. I allready gave my CRX to my nephew.

It would have helped to watch you in your car as I watched the Ferrari and realized he brakes alot sooner then I do and is not agressive at all. I realized the double cones are the entry and exit. I do thnk the clutchless paddle shift is an auto like advantange, especially with alot of torque.
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Old 03-12-07, 01:05 PM
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Don't be discouraged, bro. It looks like you've built a very powerful car, but need to make some suspension adjustments. Autocrossing is different from most other forms of racing; in addition to learning how to drive fast, it takes a while to get used to seeing where the course goes because it's made of cones.


I'm sure you've noticed that things seem to happen much faster in autocrossing: the speeds might be lower, but the distance between corners is shorter as well. The biggest improvement you can make is usually to "fix the nut behind the wheel." Check out www.turnfast.com for some great driving advice. Since your car tends to oversteer, you might want to try "late apexing" in most corners.


For someone who doesn't have a lot of track experience yet, I think your overall spring rates are too stiff, and the rear springs are too stiff. My FD tended to oversteer with stock suspension, stock tires, at stock power levels. You've added a lot of power, stiffened up the rear (which will make the car tend to oversteer), and you're still using tires that aren't much better than stock, in terms of grip. The car is going to oversteer. On my car, I added newer tires, and the extra grip made the car feel better, but it still tended to oversteer. A stiffer front swaybar has made the car much easier to drive fast.


Stock springs:
Front: 263 lb/in
Rear: 195 lb/in (about 25% softer than the front)


Your setup (10kg/mm front and rear):
Front : 560 lb/in (about twice as stiff as stock)
Rear: 560 lb/in (about 3 times stiffer than stock)


Erik Strelnieks' 3-rotor RX-7 (SM2 autocross-prepared, plenty of money in suspension parts)
Front : 950lb/in
Rear : 750lb/in (about 25% softer than the front)




Just for kicks, you might try swapping your stock suspension back in, to see how the car handles. You might like it. Go back and review this thread on springs, Howard Coleman shares a lot of experience there: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/new-apexi-coilover-market-398544/


-s-

Last edited by scotty305; 03-12-07 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 03-12-07, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by howard coleman
The primary challenge for all front engined rear drive cars is to hook up the rearÖ Thatís because the rear tires not only have to stick and support roughly half the carís weight but they also have all the power feeding through them. It is all about rear stick. Thatís why you run larger rear tires, less rear air pressure, less or no rear swaybar and softer rear springs and shocks. Notice all of the above springsets excepting the Exv, are lower rated in the rear.
If you run even rated springs in an FD the rear end will be all over the place.

I just wanted to emphasize that last sentence. Realize that Howard's not trying to sell anything there. It's likely that the Buddy Club representatives you spoke with were just trying to sell the product that was already sitting on the shelf.

-s-
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Old 03-12-07, 01:34 PM
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how can you make a thread entitled:

My AutoX setup isn't working - what do I change?

when you also say

Originally Posted by GoRacer
UllLose ... You were over 15 seconds faster in my car then I was, so it shows it can be done.

it ain't the car. its you. denial ain't a river in egypt. keep at it and listen to the experienced people. don't be a know it all.
don't get R compounds yet. they will mask your rookie mistakes. when you are 3 seconds off your instructors time, then get the R's.
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