Race Car Tech Discuss anything related to road racing and auto X.

Interesting Post on Oil

Old 01-25-08, 08:25 AM
  #1  
Old Rotary Dog
10 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
wrankin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Interesting Post on Oil

Ran across this over in the IT forums.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forum...ad.php?t=23349

I'm wondering what the implications are for rotary engines. Thoughts?

-b
wrankin is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 08:34 AM
  #2  
www.lms-efi.com
iTrader: (27)
 
C. Ludwig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Floyds Knobs. IN
Posts: 5,106
Received 30 Likes on 23 Posts
Most of what I've read on the subject seems to suggest the problem is concentrated with sliding components such as cam lobes and followers not in the bearings. So I wouldn't be concerned with rotary bearings. Now what effect there may be on side iron/side seal wear and apex seals (for those who don't premix) may be of concern.

I've used Shell Rotella for years anyway so it's just business as usual as far as I'm concerned.
C. Ludwig is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 10:26 AM
  #3  
SCCAEP
iTrader: (3)
 
SCCAITS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I was using Idemitsu 20w-50 but switched months ago to Valvoline VR1 20w-50. Because of an Accusump, 8qts of oil adds up, especially when I like to change it every 1-2 weekends. According to the article, I'm assuming the "off road" Valvoline is the VRI as it is a racing motor oil.
SCCAITS is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 10:53 AM
  #4  
www.lms-efi.com
iTrader: (27)
 
C. Ludwig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Floyds Knobs. IN
Posts: 5,106
Received 30 Likes on 23 Posts
Originally Posted by SCCAITS View Post
I'm assuming the "off road" Valvoline is the VRI as it is a racing motor oil.
I'd say you're right. Doesn't the VR1 say something about "not for highway use" on the bottle?
C. Ludwig is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 11:02 AM
  #5  
SCCAEP
iTrader: (3)
 
SCCAITS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
I'd say you're right. Doesn't the VR1 say something about "not for highway use" on the bottle?
I think so but don't have any oil with me at the office to check. The Valvoline website does not say anything about "off-road" only which causes some questioning. In fact it says...." Valvoline VR-1 Racing Motor Oil is recommended for engines burning gasoline and full or partial alcohol fuels in track and street service."

http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

So, it's kind of an assumption that the "off-road" is the VR1
SCCAITS is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 12:46 PM
  #6  
Old Rotary Dog
10 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
wrankin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I was mainly interested in the implications for the side and apex seals in the rotary, since it seems that this would be a similar situation to the cam lubrication.

Also, sometimes I would like to drop to a lower weight (<20w50) because on cold weekends my oil temps are marginal (160 at the filter). So what are the good "rotary friendly" alternatives to the 20w50 Valvoline which I normally run?


-b
wrankin is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 01:43 PM
  #7  
SCCAEP
iTrader: (3)
 
SCCAITS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wrankin View Post
So what are the good "rotary friendly" alternatives to the 20w50 Valvoline which I normally run?


-b
Rotary specific - http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_207.htm
SCCAITS is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 04:38 PM
  #8  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
ZDDP additive!!!

ZDDP additive. Some interesting reading on this site.
http://www.zddplus.com/

Motor oil myths.
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm


API oils have always been more than adequate for the engines designed when the oil was current. The use of current API grade oils has always been adequate to satisfy car manufacturer's requirements and warranty demands. Historically, with few exceptions, newer API grades have superseded the performance of their predecessors. The removal of ZDDP has resulted in a clear change to that philosophy. It has never been necessary or desirable to include additives or supplements to any API rated oil to meet car manufacturer's specifications or warranty requirements. In virtually all cases, off-the-shelf additives amount to little more than automotive snake oil. Current additive technology has yet to develop an EP anti-wear agent as effective as ZDDP. Consequently, if these additives actually had adequate levels of ZDDP, they would be incompatible with modern engines and void manufacturer's warranties.
Due to this unprecedented turn of events in emissions requirements, ZddPlus should not be confused with an off-the-shelf additives. ZddPlus should be considered a replacement for a missing oil component critical for older cars.

Last edited by crispeed; 01-25-08 at 05:04 PM.
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 04:45 PM
  #9  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
Most of what I've read on the subject seems to suggest the problem is concentrated with sliding components such as cam lobes and followers not in the bearings. So I wouldn't be concerned with rotary bearings. Now what effect there may be on side iron/side seal wear and apex seals (for those who don't premix) may be of concern.

I've used Shell Rotella for years anyway so it's just business as usual as far as I'm concerned.

It's not only cam lobe/followers but any area that experiences extreme presuure/heat.
The manual transmission that use regular motor oil for instance wolud qualify. The rotary motor also highly qualifies mainly due to it's high metal to metal contact surface area ratio.

Last edited by crispeed; 01-25-08 at 05:02 PM.
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 05:34 PM
  #10  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Air cooled engines are also being affected.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
'Porsche’s recommendation in hand, our initial analysis from 2005 and 2006 and from virgin oil analyses going back to the 1990s, we found that then recent SH/SJ/SL formulations of Mobil lubricants tested, including Mobil 1, have had similar 0.12-0.14%or higher Zn and P content. Newer SM formulations of Mobil 1 have less Zn and P, most limited to 0.10% or less to meet ACEA or API requirements. This confirms the industry wide trend of the reduction of Zn and P from motor oils, with the eventual reduction to 0.06-0.08% or even worse, the elimination of these additives, which are essential to an aircooled Porsche engine's longevity.
Many Porsche repair shops have acknowledged that these newest SM and CJ-4 motor oils are not sufficient for protecting any Porsche engine. With longevity and the protection of vital engine components in mind, many shops are recommending non-approved motorcycle or racing oils, or the addition of oil supplements at every oil change, for their higher levels of protection.'
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 05:45 PM
  #11  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by wrankin View Post
Ran across this over in the IT forums.
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forum...ad.php?t=23349
I'm wondering what the implications are for rotary engines. Thoughts?
-b


'Oil is Killing our cars Part II '

Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.

#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation" oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don't have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok.
Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

We'll keep you apprised of any new findings! Happy motoring for now!
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 08:05 PM
  #12  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I found this to be interesting.
'Many motorcycle, racing, heavy duty, and a few other classification oils and/or grades are seemingly exempt from the EPA's mandate for the reduction (and eventual elimination) of ZDDP as the primary anti-wear additive in motor oils. One example is Castrol GTX - the 10w40 has almost no zinc or phosphorus, where the 20w50 has more than Mobil 1.'
I do know that the present over the counter Mobil 1 is no where close to the original or previous formula and many racing organisation are using the original stuff provided directly from Moblil 1 themselves.
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 08:17 PM
  #13  
7s before paint!!!
iTrader: (2)
 
13B-RX3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Philly/Texas
Posts: 3,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I talked to a Royal Purple engineer once and he told me that every single one of their employees used their racing oil in their own personal daily drivers. He said the reason for it is because the racing oil was not regulated and they could add (or leave out) whatever they wished.

Government mandated specs= BAD.

I use to use Royal Rurple 10W30 but switched to 30W Castrol.
13B-RX3 is offline  
Old 01-25-08, 08:57 PM
  #14  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Valvoline VR1 is also very popular but is getting difficult to find in my area now.
I'm very bias towards Castrol 20W50 GTX motor oil. I just can't argue with the success I have with it on my applications.
The original Kendal 'green' oil was also very good but no longer available from the present Kendal line up after it was sold by the oil compnay. The good news for the 'green' oil lovers is that it's still available from 'Brad Penn' and it's the same company that originally made it for Kendal.
One of racers best kept secret. Some people might even be a little **** at me for just posting that information.

Another product packed with Zinc.
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/dis...tid=3&loc=show

Last edited by crispeed; 01-25-08 at 09:09 PM.
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-27-08, 06:33 PM
  #15  
Boost
10 Year Member
 
Torque South's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have ALWAYS used Castrol GTX 20w50 and NEVER had any problems. So the that weight is not recommended for break-in? And is the "secret" green oil a little bit better for everyday use?
Torque South is offline  
Old 01-28-08, 06:43 PM
  #16  
Rotor Power Rules
iTrader: (5)
 
Bruceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is a myth

"Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. "
Bruceman is offline  
Old 01-28-08, 06:44 PM
  #17  
Rotor Power Rules
iTrader: (5)
 
Bruceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bruceman is offline  
Old 01-29-08, 12:45 AM
  #18  
Lives on the Forum

 
Kentetsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Grand Rapids Michigan
Posts: 11,361
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Interesting read Bruce...
Kentetsu is offline  
Old 01-29-08, 03:17 AM
  #19  
'Tuna'
 
crispeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami,Fl,USA
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Very interesting read indeed. That's why I don't believe most of the **** posted on the world wide web but base my results on what I've experienced personally. You will never know the truth by quoting what others have posted somewhere on the internet especially when most of it is done for pure profit..
I do know from personal and what I've seen others in the industry experience is that the 'green' oil do offer some benefits in actual racing conditions or when stuff is operated at the limit and that's not based on where the oil is manufactured but based on the actual components of the oil. The rest is just a sales pitch based on the so called myth!
Most of the conventional oils out there will get the job done for 95% of the applications but it's the other 5% that needs something extra and that's where the limitations often show up on conventional 'dino' oils.
I always heard about the lower zinc additive in certain modern oils but never paid attention to it because I found and used the oil that gave me the best results which happened to be one of the oils Castrol GTX 20W50 exempted from that requirement. I have a friend who was the first to fill me in on the lower zinc additive in the present over the counter 'Mobil 1'.
I never knew that to be the case and my friend ex Indy(IRL) crewcheif did base that on his findings especially when they started experiencing abnormal ware in short periods on their manual transmissions which used motor oils for lubrication. What I did not know at the time also was that there was a 'Mobil 1' available to certain racers that had extra zinc or if you wanted the regular previous now 'illegal' for street use or will 'void' your warranty formula that everyone believes offers the same benefits.

This is what Mobil 1 had to say when asked about the lower zinc additive in the present day oil formula.

'The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.'
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
It's important to read the fine print on the bottom of that table where it's stated that the zinc level will have to be lowered to meet EPA's 2008 law requirements.
I wonder if Mobil would have informed the general public of the differences if never asked.

How many people are aware that 'synthetics' are classified into different groups based on 'base stocks' used in manufacturing. Most of the over the counter 'synthetics' in the USA are not qualified for use in Europe or German autos that call for that type of lubricant. They were tried and failed during use for those applications.

Here are some more internet reading material.
'Basestocks are the essential oils taken from the ground that through refinement become our motor oils. Like many things, there are various grades and qualities for basestock. Most standard, name-brand petroleum motor oils come from Group III basestocks.

Group IV basestocks, those used by true synthetics, are comprised of polyalphaolefins, the molecules that account for synthetic oil's superior lubricity, heat-dissipating, contaminant-trapping, and longer-lasting abilities.

Group V basestocks, the best overall, are polyolesters and actually are not petroleum based, but come from corn.

Synthetic oils require (for several reasons beyond the scope of both this post and my complete understanding) the use of both polyalphaolefins and polyolesters. Mobil 1 is considered a Group IV oil because it contains primarily polyalphaolefins with some polyolesters. Red Line oil is considered a Group V because it contains primarily polyolesters with some polyalphaolefins.

Castrol Synthetic is actually a Group III petroleum oil that has been hydrocracked, meaning guys in labcoats have literally broken the molecules down into smaller components that mimic the molecular structure of synthetics and marketed them as such. Mobil actually took Castrol to court over this, claiming that Castrol was guilty of false advertising by claiming their Group III oil was a synthetic. The judge disagreed and Castrol won the suit. In Europe, however, where labeling laws appear to be more stringent, Castrol is not allowed to advertise their product as a synthetic oil. Understand that the origin of this problem is that Castrol did a bait and switch. Their synthetic oil began as a Group IV, like Mobil 1's, but once they gained the public's trust with a good product, they downgraded their basestock to a Group III without informing anyone of the change.'

That's so funny because according to many the present day over the counter 'Mobil 1 SuperSyn' is no where close to the original 'Mobil 1 Tri-synthetic' and is very close to 'Castrol Syntec' and should also be classified as a Group III.

Last edited by crispeed; 01-29-08 at 03:39 AM.
crispeed is offline  
Old 01-30-08, 10:24 PM
  #20  
Big Snail
5 Year Member
 
93FD3S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
So Castrol Synthetic isn't really a synthetic oil then. Man I'm using it in my Xterra, I'm actually using the 5-30. I need to change that out ASAP. So my interpretation is for high output motors use the non-big name synthetics such as Royal Purple, Amsoil, Idemitsu, etc. Because they are not government regulated. I'm glad I've always used 20-50 Royal Purple on my FD.
93FD3S is offline  
Old 02-07-08, 10:19 AM
  #21  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
yay
gtidubster is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: