soru81

I was planning on getting my handbrake modified to be hydraulic powered, but I have talked to my mechanic and he's figured it out it would probably too much fuss with abs, all the lines and no place for fitting clyinders near the handbrake...

So I decided to try to find all the information about it, if anyone tried to do this before...

Any information is highly appreciated, thanx in advance for answers.

Mld>7

There is a reason the hand break is mechanical...

Unless your car is maxed out and you have nothing left to mod besides the e-brake, then your money would be better spent else where. Your taking a simple system that works and making it more complex for no reason. Unless I'm missing something it would work the same both ways. Cool idea though.

EProdRx7

I was thinking of this also mainly because it would be the **** for drifting. The handbreak on a regular FC is less then powerfull and activating them with a 5/8 or 7/10 tilton master would make them much more effective. Ever watch the WRC cars at Corsica or one of the other "tarmac" rallies? The all have Hydro hand breaks.

soru81

This really is missed shot, if you think I tought of going through this stuff just because of it being cool idea or I have nothing else to do. It may be useless to you, but to me it is something I've always dreamed of. I give up 50 peak hp anytime for the sake of having hydro-handbrake...

There are things you cannot do without it. For example, getting the car sideways at some speed in the narrow lane... Feinting requires some space, and it has much less response - you have to do several things in advance to initiate the slide... With such handbrake, you just think of it and pull it gently - and you are there. This is what I would like to have in my car... Besides, with it you can eliminate some tranny straining techniques (it really hurts when doing it).

reza

I guess clutch kick is not an option here? It is a tranny/clutch straining activities.

soru81

Yeah, well it is, but not a good idea for long term. As I've said, my heart hurts when I do it, especially when you think of it, it's exactly what makes play in the drivetrain... I really hate play in anything

peejay

If you want to know hydraulic handbrakes, go to the forum on specialstage.com and search the Car Construction section.

Basically, just get a clutch master cylinder, remove the reservoir and tap it for a line fitting. The brake line coming from the master cylinder goes into the new fitting you just added, the brake line going to the rear brakes comes out of the clutch master's output port. Attach a suitable lever to the clutch master. Regular braking just "flows through" the master as if it's not even there, but when you want to lock up the rears just grab your new handle!

The reason the standard hand brake is mechanical is because it's also an EMERGENCY brake, aka if the hydraulics fail you have a mechanical back-up. Unfortunately, I have YET to see a caliper type mechanical brake that works worth a crap! Drum handbrakes usually work excellently.

soru81

Thanks for advice. The specialstage.com seems to be unavailable right now, so I will try later.

There's one thing my mechanic mentioned and I'm not sure of it. He said that most stock cars have brake lines connected diagonally and therefore it would take two cylinders to establish hydro handbrake. I've looked in to some brake lines schemes (it was not exactly for brake lines, so wasn't very accurate and hard to read), but I came to this conclusion:
a) rear brake lines join in one line, so only one line for the rear comes to ABS unit
b) each line from front brakes comes separately to ABS unit

So, does this mean my mechanic was wrong, and I would actually need only ONE cylinder to make this happen?


And one more question, do you usually left the original e-brake connection together with new hydro connection to cylinder, or do you eliminate original e-brake connection and have only hydro handbrake?

Ranzo

First off ABS dosen't come into play with the hand brake

Second the brakes only have one master cylinder for four wheels so I think one would do fine for a hand brake.

Third if you are gonna drift loose the ABS.

I was at Veilside the other day and they have these nice aluminum handles with a resevoir on them. Not sure if they use it for a line lock or a hand brake but I think you could do both with it.

soru81

Interesting info, I'll take a look into it. Didn't know Veilside makes that kindof performance parts...

Regarding the ABS, I plan to make a switch for it.

RETed

Handbraking has no place on a stock steering system FC or FD.
If you need the handbrake, you either don't know how to drive or your car doesn't have enough power.  If you car doesn't have enough power, going to a hydraulic handbrake system is waste of money, as money is better spent getting more power out of your engine.

Yes, I'm talking about drifting.


-Ted

dennnnis

it only costs about 30-50 dollars.

EProdRx7

Ted why not have more then one option for getting the car to rotate?

RETed

I help out one of the local drifters who uses an FC for drifting.
We've been messing around with the chassis for almost a year now, and we've come up with a couple of conclusions.

You cannot compare the FC/FD chassis to a Nissan S31/S14 chassis.
The steering ratio on an S13/S14 gives you a lot more range from steering lock to lock than an FC/FD.  This allows the S13/S14 to get a lot more vehicle angle sideways when drifting.  The FC/FD just cannot get that much sideways without spinning out.
The FC/FD have a lot more lower polar moment, and the chassis is just not as "stable" going sidewayds versus the S13/S14 chassis.
The S13/S14 has a different rear suspension layout, where the suspension arms cross at a lower extrapolated point versus the FC/FD - this makes the FC/FD a much more stable system when not sliding but becomes very unstable when sliding.

Once the FC/FD horsepower (actually torque) starts to break 200hp or so, the chassis is easily induced into a slide by abrupt throttle inputs (both lifting and stabbing the throttle).  The FC/FD becomes a very nice drift vehicle when you get the power up, and drifting becomes an exercise of throttle control.  We feel no need to even touch the handbrake at this point, because this turns the FC/FD chassis into a violently rotating chassis which is very hard to control.  MAYBE, at very low speeds, the handbrake will help, but this is a very rare case (for us).

As a side note, to get the FC to mimic the S13/S14 steering control, we've developed a front hub steering point relocation mod that allows the FC to get close!



-Ted

peejay

Having a lot of power doesn't help you get sideways *before* the corner.

Haven't tried an FC or FD, or my old SA for that matter, but the FB seems to have a nice "comfort angle" of about 15-20 degrees yaw when you lock up the rears only. I use this to great effect lately Horrible understeer if you try to corner sharply in the snow, and the footbrake just locks the front wheels so you can't use load transfer to your advantage, so about 40-50 yards before a corner I turn in slightly while grabbing the handbrake. Car gets sideways *without wanting to spin* (because all braking is in the rear, no deceleration at the front contact patches trying to turn the car around) then when it is time to actually turn into the corner, enough speed is scrubbed off from sliding sideways (if the timing was right!), release handbrake while dropping clutch, turn in (reduce countersteer) and modulate throttle *gently*, then power away from the neatly-performed corner. Sure beats plowing head-on into a curb!

Kinda like rallying on gravel, really, and that's where the hydro handbrake comes from.

edit: Some AWD setups use a center diff with a clutch that can be disengaged with hydraulic pressure, and rally cars with that setup have *two* master cylinders on the handbrake, one applying rear brake pressure and the other applying pressure to disengage the handbrake. There's no reason why this same theory cannot be applied to a RWD so that the handbrake also disengages the clutch, so you don't find yourself trying to grab handbrake with the clutch engaged!

RETed

It does when you have enough technique to "juke" (also called the Scandinavian flick?) the vehicle before the actual drift (turn).  It's also known as a "choku-dori" by the Japanese.

I still don't get the requirement of pulling the handbrake...  This stops the rear tires from spinning, and it requires the split-second to reaccelerate the rear tires again to get the proper throttle steering velocity.  If we eliminate the hand-brake, then we get near instantaneous throttle steering control going into the drift itself.  What you said can be true for low-speed drifting, but I'm talking about under all conditions, which will include drifting speeds approaching 100mph (on dry asphalt).


I'd be really wary on comparing the live-axle FB rear end to the IRS of the FC/FD.  You should try this at higher speeds to see if it's consistent across all vehicle speeds - we've found the (drift) handling to change dramatically as speeds increase.


-Ted

soru81

I'm sorry to say, but this is the exactly the kind of answer that is totaly useless to me. Why even post it, if there's nothing useful you'd like to add? If I wanted comments about it or some tips about drifting, I'd say so, so PLEASE stick to the topic.

Nevertheless, Ted... Steering system and hand braking are two separate things. Having the low wheel cutoff angle is not an exuse. And so isn't the car stability in slide. It is a game of a car setup, it starts with type of tires, their pressure, alignment, suspension settings... Any car with rwd can be made for drifting, at least this is what I've learned so far.

Additional wheel cutoff angle can be obtained with customized tie rods. For S13/14, tein produces them, and with them you gain quite few additonal degrees (5 and more).... It is a question if it is even needed tough. For professional drifting, FD has enough cutoff angle. It's less forgiving tough, if you have wider angle. Even S13/14 or bmw with very wide angle don't use this angle very much... they just don't aprouch opposite lock as you might with FD.

What you need to understand is, that drifting is not just sliding with exessive power, it is a driving style. It is not just turning left or right, it is not just accelerating or substaining speed, it is also decelerating. And that is where handbrake comes very handy.

That said, I've never drifted FD. But I've drifted with lots of other cars, a few MR ones, many without lsd, many underpowered. I've drifted with all sorts of cars, even midship FRs like FD. So please, don't tell me that drifting is all about throttle control and power... it is so not.

Again, I really don't have time for every other person now and then that comes by to explain why I need it and why it is useful. Just PLEASE don't slam on it if you don't understand why it is useful.

RETed

You don't get it - you're so stuck on the handbrake thing, you're totally ignoring what I was trying to say.  My point was that with a proper suspension set-up on an FC/FD, you DON'T NEED the handbrake.  PERIOD.  If you don't need the handbrake, why bother doing such a mod?


This is where you're showing your ignorance.  I'm not talking about "backyard" drifting where you go to the local parking lot and waste your tires.  I'm talking about competition drifitng, where you're up against the Hachis and S13/S14's that DOMINATE these type of events.  You need to carefully compare your FC/FD to an S13/S14 - this is your major competition here.  You just CANNOT attain the drift angle versus the S13/S14 due to the limitation in suspension geometry.  I'd like to here ANY suggestion to get the car sideways like an S13/S14, because we just CANNOT do that with our FC drift cars, PERIOD.  We had to resort to a modified front hub to get the steering ratio to quicken with wider limits.

The S13/S14's can get away with yaw angles OVER 30-degrees.  I've never seen a stock steering FC/FD get angles like that.  Suspension set-up has NOTHING to do with that.  Driving technique doesn't affect this either.  It has everything to do with physics and suspension geometry, which you're not going to change unless you drastically change the stock suspension (or steering) geometry - something you did NOT mention.


You just said it wasn't necessary.


The S13/S14 doesn't need it.


You should go look under the D1 FD's - almost all of them run a modified steering geometry.


One, if you want to get into a whole dissertation on drifting, I can do that.  I was trying to narrow my scope on why running a modified handbrake on your FC/FD is a total waste of time.  And to imply the handbrake is used for deceleration shows your ignorance of what drifitng is.  The handbrake is used to rotate the rear end artificially.  If you're using the handbrake to slow the car down, your technique is not consistent on how most drifters use the handbrake.  You ever seen Drift Bible by Keiichi Tsuchiya?  It's a good video for BEGINNERS - he discusses how the handbrake is used to induce oversteer in an understeering chassis; there is no mention to use the handbrake for slowing the car down.


Maybe we should find out what your experience is?  So would you want to elaborate on how extensive your drifting experience is?  How many cars have you drifted?  Where did you do your drifting?  At what entry speeds are you drifting at?  Are you part of a drift team?  If so, name location of these teams.


Why don't you just ignore my stupid replies and just go ahead with your project then...

-Ted

Ranzo

Wow OK Ted you have obviously been researching this alot and have some information to back up what you are saying....typical Ted LOL
However on some of this I have to disagree with you.
The FC/FD are not comparable in a lot of ways they drive totally different and react differently when sideways. The Nissans do not have more steering angle than the Mazdas and a Hachi Roku definatley does not have more. The wheelbase gives the Nissans a great advantage into maintaining a long fast drift. I drifted, at circuit, a S-13, s-14, AE86, FC3S and FD3S as well as Nissan Cima, Laurel and Skyline. I have been Driving FC's for 7 years now have drifted in Japan national level events so I have a pretty good backround to support my beliefs as well. When you look at the aftermarket parts made all the nissans have longer tie rods readily available.....the Mazdas don't . The 86's have always intermingled the GT Rack and GTV knuckles to produce the Chombu rack. This is more neccesary on the little piece of **** 86 due to its Short wheel base and lack of power. The FC is also short and has what I call ikinardi tendancies meaning the *** end will come out very quickly and snap back very quickly.

My FC does not have a handbrake. It is there but it doesn't work........I never ever use the Handbrake because it dosen't work......LOL I want a hand brake because it can be used to make adjustments during a turn in middrift. Many of the Top D1 drivers use thier handbrake I know them personally and have had the conversations with them.......You can watch Taniguchi use his right on Option Video.
I also do Gymkhana........I do amazingly well for not having a Handbrake.......when doing Gymkhana a well functioning handbrake can lead you to victory. Me not having a good handbrake has caused my car to roll down many a hill and crash into **** so I have to say that making a hydraulic handbrake is not a completley stupid Idea It would be easy to make small adjustments during drift and would give unmatched clamping ability during Gymkhana and parking.
You don't "need" a handbrake to drift a 7 but it is very nice to have!!!

RETed

Interesting theory - I had to look all of that up.

S13 hatch - 97.4"
S14 - 99.4"
FC3S - 95.7"
FD3S - 95.47"

Yeah, the S13/S14 does have a wheelbase advantage.  It does have an effect, but I'd think the polar moment would be more of a factor?  I've been helping out one of your Team Velocity members (small world huh?), and shocked the hell out of me what an S13 hatch can do on the track.  Matto still has his stock KA24D in his S13 hatch, but it shocked how long he had to yank the handbrake to get the car to rotate!  You pull the handbrake like that in an FC, and you'd have spun twice around by then!


Yeah, I know who you are, and I respect your skills.


Ikinardi?  Ikenai?
The only spec I found for an AE86, was 94.49" for an AE86 Coupe.


You're talking about really advanced techniques, and I don't think 99% of the guy on here can attain such a level.

Sure, the handbrake can be used to induce oversteer, but what's the difference between that and just using some throttle lift?


Nobu?  Doesn't he drive an S15? How about Haraguchi in his FD?


Ah, gymkhana = autocross, and I know with slower speeds, the handbrake is advantageous.  I think I mentioned that in a prior reply - handbraking to induce oversteer at lower vehicle speeds.


-Ted

Ranzo

Could you explain Polar Movement more??

I agree with you that the handbrake is WAY overrated. At Niko going into the fastest turn I can use a slight Faint technique or kind of just turn in and rail the gas....the next corner is maintained by off and on Throttle depending on your line and speed. Smaller corners can be aided by the handbrake but you can easily do it without it.

This means they are sudden......one minute you are going straight and then you turn and the rear end comes around REAL FAST causing over correction and some nasty looking driving.



NOBu Yeah he drives a S15. Haraguchi......I dunno what he uses exactly.. He is not driving the FD as far as I know. On his FC I know he used altered knuckles to achieve more turning angle.

RETed

"Polar moment", basically is how much weight is concentrated toward the center of the vehicle.  F1 cars like to concentrate weight in the center, and this causes any rotation of the vehicle to be significantly quicker.  This can be applied to mass-produced automobiles also; the RX-7's have all strived for low polar moment (weight toward center), for better turning transition reaction.  The downside of low polar moment is that the chassis becomes very twitchy when it's unstable (i.e. under drift).  Remember, the RX-7 mounts the 13B engine rearward of the front struts - this "adds" to a low polar moment.  The S13/S14 has higher polar moment, where weight is moved outward (versus the FC/FD) and this makes the chassis very stable when under drift, on top of the longer wheelbase.

Yeah, we were trying to do this with an FC, and the driver was getting into a lot of trouble spinning!  I eventually told him to feint and combine it with some throttle lift, and this seems to easily induce the rear rotating with very little fuss.  (Throttle steer) control is a lot easier with this method.  I agree with everything you've said.

Ah, which nails down what an FC does.


Yeah, we stole Haraguchi's front knuckle mod from Option 90-something to adapt to our FC's for drifting.


-Ted

soru81

TED:

I don't have time to read all your lines and reply on all your tricky question - some users have better things to do than just raising post number.

You have your opinion, just don't hijack the thread and stick to the topic. You can always start new one. Just one tip. Have a bit of praxis, not just theory. The both of them don't match. And think twice before marking someone as ignorant.

And the latter, handbrake is wonderful drifting tool. Learn to use it, and you will agree. There's more to drifting than just drift bible. Maybe one day you will understand what I meant...

RETed

You know what - I'll be in eastern Europe by the end of the year (maybe by summer).
Why don't you show me in person how good you can drive...


-Ted

TheTwinTurboRX-7

What I can't believe, is after all this, the gentelman can't allow that perhaps you might know what you're talking about, and to say to you sir(Ranzo) that you can learn from his advice, somehow the arrogance shines right through. I would find it comical if it wasn't so blatantly inflamatory.