Fatman0203

Please enlighten me on how you did this. Like really I need to know. The worst I could see doing is, maybe spinning out and hitting a curb, bending a rim or something. Not in a bad way, but I was surprised to see how anything bad could happen, going at such low speeds. Maybe your auto-x is different.

Umrswimr

Well, where to begin...

Basically, it was a very small parking lot with storm drains and various other obsticles strewn throughout. I made sure to take special note of where there was insufficient runoff and obsticles, but I failed to notice one part.
The finish line had a 120 degree left corner followed by a slightly right-hand sweeper through the lights. I got on the gas a little too hard through the sweeper and the car stepped out left (oversteer). I lifted the throttle and countersteered which resulted in a spin the other direction. About 15' outside the "track" on the OUTSIDE of the sweeper was a "No Parking" sign. Filled with concrete. I basically slid the car sideways at about 30 MPH into it.
Needless to say, the pole didn't move much.

Did about $10k worth of damage.

It was my fault for losing control of the car, but the safety steward's fault for placing the course in such a poor locaiton with insufficient runoff.
The really crappy part: I seriously considered not running after seeing the course. I felt it wasn't safe, yet I ran anyway. Bad move.

Fatman0203

I guess we learn, and then become poor huh =/ Did your insurance conver it? This track had a decent amount of runoff, actually enough that I missed a cone (off track), and went back in without hitting a cone =P.

[Edit] What happens if you run the FD (stock) with 19 psi of tire pressure? Just wondering ofcourse =P.

Section8

iTrader: (6)

Since I just got my car basically, I've only had chance to do one autocross, and I'm planning on doing another on Sunday. I had an absolute blast and learned more than I thought possible. Sure I got owned by everyone else, but I had fun, and I learned more about my car. I had great feedback from my friends there, one even rode with me on my first run to help me out, and I made sure to work the corners where I thought I could improve and I really think it helped.

At the end of the day I got to do 2 fun runs, and my last run was 13 seconds faster than my first run.

That being said, I can't wait to do some track days, but I don't think I'm ready yet. I feel like there's so much more that I can (and should) learn about my car, myself, and driving from autox before I go to a HPDE.

Just two cents from a newbie

Fatman0203

After driving the car for a year (my car), its hard to really learn new things about it. I mean I did, but nothing out of the ordinary. Just braking which is important but I didnt even have enough time to remember the track AND control my car. I was to much into the car and forgot about the track. Either way, have fun and be prepared for your fist track day, you'll love it. My first one, i wasnt even driving and I had a blast.

TracyRX7

I guess it depends on where you autocross or track your car. In the Sacramento region events you can fun run till you melt your tires or run your car out of gas after you're done with your official timed runs. The fun runs are $1 each which they use to help maintain the very nice equipment setup they have for us.

Personally I fun run if I think I've left something out on the course and think I can get a better time by trying something different. If I can't beat my best official time by more than .2 of a second after 3 runs I stop, if whatever I tried is dropping times I keep after it until it levels off.

As far as going to the track with the car, well personally I'd need real seats, fire extinguisher, 5 point harness, minimum of 4 point cage, kill switch, radiator, bigger/second oil cooler, intercooler, and probably a brake upgrade.

On the idea of what you learn at the track versus autocross I look at autocross like somebody else mentioned earlier, like a chess match. Autocross is that part of a chess match after the book runs out and you've got a limited amount of time to make the best decision on the data you have to work with. Track driving is the chess match during the book play, methodical, predictable, and the best way to do it.

In autocross you get a chance to analyze the track and then 3-4 runs at it to get the best time out of your car. After each run you get a brief amount of time to analyze the data, check over your car, and run again. Hopefully by that last run you are driving the perfect slip through each corner and taking the best line right at the limit. On a track you can't really do that unless you are (1) crazy and (2) have an unlimited budget.

Some folks actually like the competition too which you don't really get in a HPDE and budget for a competitive autocross season versus a competitive track racing season is no comparison at all.

But autocross is so slow....I guess I just don't get a speed rush anymore because going 140mph at 7/10ths in my FD is much less "thrilling" than braking from 55 down to 30 as I push around a hairpin corner at 10/10ths for me.

To each is own, it just depends on your style and what you enjoy out of each type of event.

DamonB

I agree. The sensation of speed does not come from what the speedometer says it comes from how busy you are in the seat and how often the car is changing direction. I did nearly twice the work in about 40 seconds this past weekend than I do for an entire lap at MSR. You can't fix a mistake in an autox if it is a well designed course.

I highly enjoy tracking my car as well but for me it gets boring quickly if I have nobody to chase. Even then it has to be somebody I trust because you don't want to be chasing somebody closely who does unpredictable things like spin in front of you or fall off the track. I don't pass guys like that unless I'm certain I can blow by quickly. I'm not willing to risk the accident in that case; it only takes once.

Fatman0203

Hey Damon what happens if you run the FD with 18 psi on the tires?

DamonB

18 psi of tire pressure? Then I hope those were set while the tire was in a refrigerator I like to see hot pressures around 36 in the rear and 38 in the front, so at a roadcourse I have to start with cold pressures in the high 20's/low 30's. Everyone else's opinion will be different. Different people like different things for different reasons.

Section8

iTrader: (6)

are you in the sand?

redrotorR1

If you're looking for an alternative to auto-x with the timing aspect still involved, I highly suggest looking for Time Trial/Solo I events in your area. You do not get as much track time as a HPDE, but you do get to go stoopid fast and then compare times to guys in your class or just fastest time overall. I've attended a few time trials with PCA and BMWCCA and had a blast.

The format is usually one morning and one afternoon session. 3-4 cars on the track at the same time. If you catch the guy in front of you, you do NOT pass. You stop and wave to the corner worker .... you get an impede; which is basically a re-run. Each session usually consists of one warm-up lap and 4-6 hot laps.

Nevertheless, I still auto-x because SS competition is very good locally and nationally (duh). Amazing as it seems, I'm getting to the point where the Z06 feels slow on an auto-x course, but the thrill of trying to push the traction limit at all times keeps me interested. It's slightly more exciting for me to try and fit a really big car through a tight transition while carrying a fair amount of speed. On a track, I find that my brain catches up to the speed fairly quickly .... so winding out 4th gear loses its thrill by the end of the day.

Umrswimr

That is completely and totally NOT true. I learn something new about my car every time I race- and I've been autocrossing for nearly three years. If you think you've "learned it all", then you're doiong yourself a great disservice. Sure, things start to get predictable and most of the time I know what the car is going to do for any given input. But there's usually one run out there where the car does something I either:

A) Didn't think it could do or
B) Didn't want it to do, yet did anyway.

If you didn't learn anything new, you'd be able to drive a PERFECT run on your second run. I doubt you did that.

In fact- how consistant were your times? Unless they were all within a few tenths, you DID learn something out there.

Fatman0203

Thats why I said, the "mostly" nothing new, yes you get to take your car to the limit and see how it is up there, and hope that its good =P.

Fatman0203

That was my tire pressure at the auto-x, no wonder I felt all the roll. Also I barely passed inspection, the whole battery tied down thing. The stock FD doesnt come with one.

Section8

iTrader: (6)

Actually it DID, but yours probably lost it somewhere along the way. My car was missing the battery tie down as well when I got it.

DamonB

Yes it does. In fact it comes with a tie down and an enclosed plastic box with lid. All of them just have ended up outside of the car over the years...

Make no mistake about how much force a 25 pound battery exerts when it's under cornering g. I break one stock battery tray every year right where the hold down hooks onto the tray. Since the tray is only mounted on three corners there is a lot of stress in it if you spend a lot of time in fast turns...

And you drive around with 18 psi in the tires yet think you have this whole driving thing figured out??? Maybe you think you have it figured out because you don't appreciate how much you don't know...

rynberg

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have read on this forum, and that's saying quite a lot. I've been driving this car for almost 3 years, and have been driving for over 13 years -- I still learn more every time I drive at the track/auto-x. You've only been driving for three years, you have a TON of learning to do....

Fatman0203

I knew I was supposed to run "at least" 30 front and 28 Rear or something like that, but sadly but group ran first and I didnt have the time to fill. Also this wasnt my car like I stated its my dads so that didnt help the situation, I think "I" need to care for his car.

Fatman0203

I just dont see how many more things can I learn or notice about the car unless I modify the suspension and re-learn it again. I mean please tell me something that you learn everytime, maybe Im not seeing it. I wasnt purposely trying to make an ignorant comment , just stating how I feel.

Umrswimr

Well, Damon's car is almost completely stock and he's still learning what it can do- just check out the Geez! plots over the last year. He's made improvements across the board. And Damon started out a very good driver.

Post your times from the last autocross: that will make it exceptionally obvious as to how much you can still "learn". If you times are all very close (within a few tenths), then you've mastered the easy stuff.

The truth is, the car reacts differently based on temperature tire pressure, track type, and course layout. Figuring out how to apply all of that on a track is the difficult part.

I still have considerable trouble with: 1) throttle modulation and 2) braking. Especially the braking part. I keep forgetting how much power the brakes actually have when combined with the race tires, so I tend to overbrake. Conversely, the car has obscene amounts of torque down low so it requires a lot of experience to roll onto the gas with enough authority to be quick out of the corner, yet not overdo it. There's a VERY fine line inn my car between heavy acceleration and power oversteer. Finding that point is half the fun!

Your best bet- take a look at your PAX times from the last event and compare yourself those folks that beat you. With the PAX index in place, they beat YOU- not the car. If they can beat you, then you still have a lot to learn.

DamonB

The point was made earlier that if you can't go out and turn a number of laps within tenths of seconds of eachother you are not consistent. If you are not consistent you cannot be "good"; you're leaving it to luck. Once you are consistent then you sit back and find something else you're not doing as well as possible and devote your time to fixing it. There is always something else to improve on. Improve the worst mistakes first and then move on to the next one.

Car setup doesn't mean anything to driving; that's a whole different aspect. The driver's job is to extract from the car in its present state all of the performance it is capable. Whether that is an F1 car, an RX-7, a Festiva or a golf cart on four flat tires doesn't matter. If you're not getting everything from the car you're not as good as you can be. Car setup improves the laptime of the car, it does NOT improve the driver. In fact the neophyte driver won't be able to get everything out of a well setup car anyway. He doesn't know how to.

If you want to look for one thing that tells you that you screwed up check to see how often you counter steer. 90% of the time if you must counter steer you screwed up.

Umrswimr

A golf cart on four flat tires?

Fatman0203

This is good info, thanks apprecaite it.

What do you mean? The only time I know of counter steering is when the back starts coming out, and I know if your back is coming out that means your slowing down. BTW Im enjoying this info greatly, and plan to try to put it to great use next time around.

sectachrome

i can sort of see your point. ive done it once, and left feeling i could have done a lot better if i had more track time. i didnt get comfortable with the course until about my last run.

Fatman0203

Im hoping to get lucky and maybe next time not so many people will be there. They said they had a fathers day one and only 60 cars were there, so that must have been fun. They got an average of 5 runs per person! Now on the other hand this last time I went had 170 cars and man was that crazy, everyone barely got 6 runs leaving at 7pm. =/