Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Ramy,

Tech inspections are ok, but to be honest; you'll basically pass as long as fluids aren't dumping out of your car (at most DE's). You still have to do your own homework on some things. For instance, that Viper I'm sure passed Tech; but Tech wont' know if your brakes are going to hold up or not.

I do agree with Tyler; I feel safer on the track than the US highways. The track has far less idiots than the streets.

Gene

iTrader: (1)

The Mazdadrivers and NASA events I've been to at those two tracks have been very well run.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

You mean you don't think it was simply brake pads fading/wearing down? It was prob a brake component failure...possibly because the braking system simply wasn't up to the task of handling a track event? Man...you're gonna get me rethinking my quick split decisions to just run to a HPDE. Rather be scared and prepared than...well...a stain on a wall somewhere.

I almost NEVER come into this section (Race Car Tech), but I'd imagine there are quite a few threads here w/ checklists to ensure their FD is track-ready, right? Wanna do your magic Mahjik, and hook me up w/ a link?

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I didn't mean to insinuate that they're bad at organizing etc...it was just ironic that I happen to be looking at their event online the other day...

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

It's hard to say just from looking at the video. It could have been fade or it could have been a mechanical failure. He doesn't appear to slow down at all. When I had it happen, the car slowed at least a little (enough the make the turn which wasn't as sharp as the Viper turn). It happened the first time I was at the track; the proper thing to do is to go straight, don't try to make the turn (both feet in).

Check this link:
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/track-check-list-so-speak-254212/

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

HOLY...your FIRST time? And you went back? LOL. My hat's off to you sir

Am I right in guessing that going straight ensures a direct head-on frontal accident, which decreases fatality rates as compared to impacts at angles (and possible rollovers associated w/ them)?

Thanks!

EProdRx7

I've seen that Viper vid before. I think it is a year or two old. If I remember correctly the analysis from the instructor was that the driver was unfamiliar with heal/toe downshifting and while trying to slow the car with the brakes he inadvertently was also depressing the loud pedal. In a car like the Viper with so much HP the gas pedal will always win.
The event at Cal Speedway is truly tragic and it begs the question “are the people driving these cars and running these events really qualified to do so?” I have been instructing for a long time and I will not get into a high HP car with just anyone.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I was thinking the same. I did everything backward, and got the FD, THEN an FB...obviously the smart thing is to start simple and learn techniques on a low hp car FIRST...

When I first took the FD out to an HPDE, it was my first HPDE ever, and I gotta tell you, I was drivin like a girl. Really. I had pretty much every car passing me, cuz I was focusing on learning the lines, but most importantly, terrified of boosting in a turn and wrecking the car (or my body work lol). By the end of the session, I was a lot more confident and a lot faster, but no where near pushing the FD as it could be pushed. Of course, having 285s in the rear gives you a nice cushion But yea...if it was me instructing (hypothetically), and I had a driver who's skill level was uknown, I'd very seriously be like "Hey it's great you drive a Viper, but until you get my OK, you're pushing the 88 BMW instructor car..."

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

The brake fade was damn scary, no doubt about it. After learning about it, I just took it easier on the car and enjoyed the rest of the day. I then purchased track specific pads to make sure the problem wouldn't come back anytime soon.

There are a lot of things that can make your heart jump while running on the track. Brakes is just one of them. However, as long as you listen to your instructors as you evaulate your sessions, you'll learn how to handle the situations without over-reacting.

Yep, going straight it to (try and) keep the car from rolling.

John Magnuson

I have had two incidents where my brakes did no perform up to par (although they were far from failing) and I knew I wouldn't quite make the turn. I just went straight and fortunately both times I was not going to fast, there was plenty of runoff and I just came to a safe stop a little bit off the track. Embarassing but no harm done. Plus if you go off sideways and the dirt is soft you could catch your wheels and role.

I now have done more modifications to my braking system them probably any other part of my FD.

-John

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

What more is there to be done than a big brake kit (calipers, pads, and rotors)? Steel braded lines? Anything else?

John Magnuson

There is a lot you can do. Don't want to get into it all here...

In my opinion properly ducted front brakes make all the difference in the world. If you do put on larger brakes it's important that you keep the brakes balanced. This can be done with proportioning valve or aftermarket master cylinder. I changed to the 929 master cyclinder to reduce pedal travel and balanced out the larger front brakes a bit with the larger RZ model rear brakes. However a proportioning valve would help. Also make sure you bleed your brakes before every event. Speedbleeders make this easy.

Steel braded brake lines help the pedal feel a bit stiffer but aren't a big deal in my opinion.

a4sport

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html

StealthFox

iTrader: (2)

Fluids(very important IMO) pads(i would go with some street/track pads like hawk HP+ or HPS or if you can actual track pads) any sort of reinforced brake lining(usually steel braided) good rotors(such as brembo) and dont fall for the slotted/cross drilled bullcrap it doesnt do anything for you just make sure you're getting the real deal name brand because ebay fake o's have been known to break on the street, now rotor failure on track would be catastrophic. 4 pot or 6 pot calipers as well(many good ones out there like stoptech, brembo, wilwood, endless/zeal(very expensive but very nice) GREX(again very expensive but very nice). also rollbars/rollcages, racing seats, head restraints, a good helmet, a good harness and good preparation helps

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Thanks So I guess I should hold of on HPDE's until I get a bigger bake kit? I'm running stockers now w/ HP pads on Brembo rotors.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

You don't need a big brake kit for tracking. Here's what you do need:

1. Proper brake pads for the track
2. Proper brake fluid

I'm using N-Tech's Lapping Day pad for the front (just using Bonez Stage I street pads on the rear). A pad with a higer coefficient of friction (and higher heat range) is just as effective on the track as a big brake kit. I just switch the Lapping Day pads off when I get home and put the Bonez back on for the street.

I've been running those pads, ATE Super Blue, SS lines (not a big deal) and have not had any fade since even running on RCompound. The goal is to use the right brake pad/fluid for the right application.

Adding some ducting will also help, but it all starts with the pads and the fluid.

Jims5543

iTrader: (2)

Just because your car can do 150-170 MPH does not mean you have to go that fast. Especially at a HPDE there is no reason to go that fast especially for a street car and / or beginner.

My 1st ever open track day I lifted and kept my TII at 130 MPH on the front straight. The instructor noticed right away and thanked me. I could have easily hit 150+ on that straight my exit speed on the last turn before the straight was 80MPH I was at 130 1/3 of the way down the straight. Once I got passed by a Supercharged Z-06 who was probably hitting 170+. I wanted to live and so did my instructor. I had no business going any faster.

Anyone who is doing a DE remember you have an instructor in your car that has put their lives in your hands. Ask the instructor about hairy stories they all have them. My hats off to anyone who is brave enough to get in the right seat and instruct.

Back on topic, its always a horror to see or hear of a fatality on the track. The good that can come from this may be that we as casual track drivers get more serious about safety and hopefully the companies that run these events will learn from this and be more cautious. I would hate to be that pit flag man right about now I am sure he is feeling pretty bad.

M's

common misconception of the "proportioning valve".

It doesn't proportion the brakes. It's an accumulator valve for the rear. It can only help to eliminate rear bias. it cannot, under any circumstances, proportion the braking force.

John Magnuson

As was stated above the stock brakes are good and often work just fine at the track with good fluid and track specific brake pads.

Plenty of people use the stock brakes at the track. I find that people (like me) who find the stock brakes instufficient after trying good track pads and fluids are having problems for the following reasons:

1) They drive the car really hard and are hard on the brakes
2) They are running racing tires that offer a lot more grip allowing the car to brake with more force and therefore create more thermal stress on the brake system
3) Racing at tracks that are hard on brakes - lots of braking zones or places where you have to brake quickly from triple digit speeds to under 50mph.

So... go ahead and use the stock brakes at the track. If you run street tires and don't drive too hard you should be just fine. At a track that is easy on brakes you might be fine no matter how hard you drive or what tires you run.

In my opinion if you are killing your stock brakes at your first couple track days you're probably driving harder than a beginner should anyway. Take it easy when you learn a track the first time.

ehrgeiz

It's damn scary to look at that. Last season I was at a lapping event and broke a front end part pushing the wheel out of the fender. Lost all steering and locked up all 4 wheels at about 145km/h. You don't realise how fast you're going till something goes wrong. Luckily I had a large area of grass to run into. The most disturbing part for me was that I was one corner away from a straight where I can reach 200km/h which has a concerete wall literally feet away from my entry point post straightaway. With only stock belts and a seat I wouldn't have stood a very good chance. It was a very valuable lesson learned, since I've commissioned for a cage to built, purchased a 6 point harness and I'm currently looking into an SA helmet with a HANS device equiped. I've also learned the paramount importance of a thorough tech inspection the day prior to an event.

It's terrible to see someone die on a track. It may not mean much, but my condolences to the friends and family.

BATMAN

Aren't the Carrera GT brakes ceramic and designed for continous braking?