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FD Rear Wing options

Old 02-20-12, 04:02 PM
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FD Rear Wing options

Hi Guys, I've been trying to research what rear wing options (that actually generate significant) do we have for the FD in a circuit racing type setting.

I've found the following:
APR GTC-500 and GTC-300 wings ([email protected] & [email protected])

RE-Amemiya GTII & GTIII wings (no data but I've seen track tests on youtube)

What other wings are racers running on their cars and why? Also does anyone know if the APR wings will require a hatch reinforcement bar?
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Old 02-20-12, 05:03 PM
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best (affordable) single element wing out there is the G-Stream. gay name, but proven profile.

3D wings only work properly when designed around the flow profile of the car they're used on. you'll notice no real race wings have as much 3D'ness as an APR.
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Old 02-20-12, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh18_2k View Post
best (affordable) single element wing out there is the G-Stream. gay name, but proven profile.

3D wings only work properly when designed around the flow profile of the car they're used on. you'll notice no real race wings have as much 3D'ness as an APR.
Have people tried the APR wing without success ? They look very similar (in installed height as well) to the RE-A wings which are used on their track cars. They have a series of you tube videos that document the increased cornering G's (sustained) after installing the wing vs. stock so it's definitely effective to a certain extent. Perhaps the G-Stream is better? Do you have any information on how much load is generated at speed?
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Old 02-20-12, 08:48 PM
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I run the APR-GTC 300 wing on my track on FD. I have been pleased with the performance.

I have seen the G-Stream run on a FD and it is a serious piece, much more rigid than the APR.

Mallen Alley makes wings that are used on SCCA GT2, GT3 and GTL cars.

The NASCAR COT wings are available for around $500 on ebay.

Guy
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Old 02-20-12, 09:03 PM
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Feed Afflux also makes a GT wing if thats what your looking for.
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Old 02-21-12, 11:58 AM
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Does the FD require reinforcement of the hatch when using these wings? How much down force does the G-stream produce?
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Old 02-21-12, 12:49 PM
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up to 600lb at 120mph (in free stream)
http://g-stream.com/C800.html

yes APR's "work". a barn door works. APR is probably better than a barn door lol. its just a question of how well do they work. i've been collecting wing profiles for a while now and comparing them in a 2D panel solver (XFOIL) to estimate lift and drag.

the trend i'm noticing is that most companies use a NACA foil (ancient technology, low lift), or just copy something that was actually developed for a car, which pretty uch means F1/CART/IRL since they're the only ones with big aero budget.

the problems with that are:

a) low aspect ratio wings behave very differently from higher aspect ratio. open wheel cars have very small wing spans and rely on endplate vortices to keep flow attached.

b) every F1 "inspired" wing i've seen is just a copy of the lower element, with no flap. you cant simply remove a flap and expect a wing to work well. it might, but thats a shot in the dark. multi elemtn wings are really one big wing with 1 or more slots in the middle, so you're basically chopping off the back half.

APR's GTC200 and their cheap aluminum dual element wings are copies of Pennon main elements, the GTC300 and 500 are thir own design (I believe).
Kognition copied a Williams F1 main element from several years ago.
Mallen Alley looks a lot like a formula main element, but not as extreme.
NASCAR COT is an LNV109A. High lift for planes, but doesn't work at lower speeds (major drag due to laminar seperation bubble). Good for a 180mph oval.
Fulcrum has a good profile. Not quite as high lift as a G-Stream, but not a copy from another application.

as far as I can tell, G-Stream uses a S1223 profile, possibly modified. I havn't seen a proper cross section yet, but it looks an aweful lot like it. the S1223 is the best published single element wing profile out there, FX-74-CL5-140 is a close 2nd. Anything better is not public information, or at least I havnt been able to dig it up.
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Old 02-21-12, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by renkenkyo View Post
Does the FD require reinforcement of the hatch when using these wings?
Don't mount it to the hatch: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=16
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Old 02-21-12, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh18_2k View Post
up to 600lb at 120mph (in free stream)
http://g-stream.com/C800.html
yes APR's "work". a barn door works. APR is probably better than a barn door lol. its just a question of how well do they work. i've been collecting wing profiles for a while now and comparing them in a 2D panel solver (XFOIL) to estimate lift and drag.

the trend i'm noticing is that most companies use a NACA foil (ancient technology, low lift), or just copy something that was actually developed for a car, which pretty uch means F1/CART/IRL since they're the only ones with big aero budget.

the problems with that are:

a) low aspect ratio wings behave very differently from higher aspect ratio. open wheel cars have very small wing spans and rely on endplate vortices to keep flow attached.

b) every F1 "inspired" wing i've seen is just a copy of the lower element, with no flap. you cant simply remove a flap and expect a wing to work well. it might, but thats a shot in the dark. multi elemtn wings are really one big wing with 1 or more slots in the middle, so you're basically chopping off the back half.

APR's GTC200 and their cheap aluminum dual element wings are copies of Pennon main elements, the GTC300 and 500 are thir own design (I believe).
Kognition copied a Williams F1 main element from several years ago.
Mallen Alley looks a lot like a formula main element, but not as extreme.
NASCAR COT is an LNV109A. High lift for planes, but doesn't work at lower speeds (major drag due to laminar seperation bubble). Good for a 180mph oval.
Fulcrum has a good profile. Not quite as high lift as a G-Stream, but not a copy from another application.

as far as I can tell, G-Stream uses a S1223 profile, possibly modified. I havn't seen a proper cross section yet, but it looks an aweful lot like it. the S1223 is the best published single element wing profile out there, FX-74-CL5-140 is a close 2nd. Anything better is not public information, or at least I havnt been able to dig it up.
Great information ! It definitely has a higher downforce potential than the GTC-500 with 600 lbs vs. 330 lbs @ 120 mph. Of course looking at the website we don't know the amount of drag vs. downforce produced which tells the efficiency of the wing. Then there is the mounting height, location, and angle of attack to consider . That being said, it sounds like the G-stream has some solid engineering behind it. What kind of mounting setup do you have for the G-stream (if that's what you're running)?

Originally Posted by jkstill View Post
I see that he mounted it external to the hatch but the post doesn't really describe why he choose to do so . Is it because the hatch cannot handle the load? I'd rather it be on the hatch so that I can open it as the car is not a trailer queen, I still need to drive it to the track . Is it possible to use what I've seen done with other cars, which is to attach it to a bar that locks into the roll cage when the hatch is closed?
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Old 02-21-12, 02:55 PM
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i don't have a g-stream, im a brokeass lol.

this car has one tho-
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=7554.0
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Old 02-21-12, 05:36 PM
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I have used Kognition wings and we were going to have them build the wings for use on the Challenger in WC GTS. The APR wings are approved for use (GTC 500) but are not very effective as stated above. Fabcar makes very nice wings, as does Max Crawford, but neither are cheap.
Honestly, if I were looking for a specific application I would pony up the dough and have Kognition or similar build a custom wing for my application.

EDIT: the hatch cannot take the load, and if your going fast enough to need a wing like your asking about you should be smart enough to tow it to the track rather than drive it there.
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Old 02-21-12, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by D Walker View Post
I have used Kognition wings and we were going to have them build the wings for use on the Challenger in WC GTS. The APR wings are approved for use (GTC 500) but are not very effective as stated above. Fabcar makes very nice wings, as does Max Crawford, but neither are cheap.
Honestly, if I were looking for a specific application I would pony up the dough and have Kognition or similar build a custom wing for my application.

EDIT: the hatch cannot take the load, and if your going fast enough to need a wing like your asking about you should be smart enough to tow it to the track rather than drive it there.
I'm mostly doing HPDE once a month, so I'm not sure if I have a specific racing application other than trying to balance the vehicle out. I'm in the middle of going through a single turbo upgrade which will significantly increase my power/torque which will make the car significantly more tail happy. The car was already having oversteer and traction issues so I figured a good next option was to do suspension and aero to increase grip (of course I could just be a better driver ).

My situation unfortunately doesn't allow me to own a truck and trailer to bring the car to the track . I've seen plenty of other vehicles use a hatch reinforcement bar that latches into the roll cage of the car when closed. I just wanted to know if it was necessary as there are alot of cars that don't need it (e.g. Dodge Viper).
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Old 02-22-12, 11:00 AM
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I actually had a fair amount typed out, then realized that your an HPDE guy and unlikely to listen, so I will keep it short-

Low-speed grip can only partiallybe helped by the addition of a wing, setup and tire choices are far more critical. And of course driver control, because I dont care what wing/tire/suspension you have under the car it will not solve poor driving technique.

Dodge Vipers with wings that work, ie Comp Coupes, are mounted through the carbon rear bodywork directly to the structure. There is zero relation to a street RX-7.
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Old 02-22-12, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by D Walker View Post
I actually had a fair amount typed out, then realized that your an HPDE guy and unlikely to listen, so I will keep it short-

Low-speed grip can only partiallybe helped by the addition of a wing, setup and tire choices are far more critical. And of course driver control, because I dont care what wing/tire/suspension you have under the car it will not solve poor driving technique.

Dodge Vipers with wings that work, ie Comp Coupes, are mounted through the carbon rear bodywork directly to the structure. There is zero relation to a street RX-7.
I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that being a better driver is always a better option. Of course I'm working on that front everytime I go out to the track, that's why the first thing I got was a traqmate to help monitor and make sure I'm being smooth through every corner. But given that becoming a better driver is something that I can't particularly accelerate, it doesn't help the learning process for the car to be unbalanced.

The reason for the turbo upgrade was purely because my stock twins had died . I figured I'd upgrade if I was replacing the stock system. The upgrade I'm doing isn't big power either, I'm aiming for around 360 rwhp and quick spool. My original goal was to get as good as I could on the stock setup before upgrading. Now that the car will be even more unbalanced, I'd like to gain some more grip if possible.

I understand that aero effects are mostly at high speed (100 mph+) situations. I'm running Yokohama Advan AD08's right now, which of course aren't slicks but are as grippy as you're going to get before not being DOT. I'm sure upgrading to slicks would probably be the best way to go with overall grip but that would need me to bring an extra set of tires to the track everytime to swap.

At this point i'm really just doing research into what I might be able to do to balance the vehicle. I wanted to know what options were avaliable as far as aero and how much effect they might have. But as you stated, this might not be the best route. Do you have any suggestions ? I'm more than willinig to listen, even if I'm a HPDE guy . Please keep in mind though, I have limited resources/space so i won't be able to do truck/trailer to the track. I do have a normal car (Toyota Matrix) that I use as a support car to bring tools, gas, etc. I appreciate the feedback you've given .

P.S. I've been doing HPDE for about a year now, and run in the intermediate groups so I'm still learning as much as I can.
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Old 02-22-12, 01:33 PM
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Suggestions:

Professional Instruction- on the short list of people I recommend are- Aaron Povoledo, Dan Clarke, JD Mobley, Adam Pecari, Carl Rydquist. All are professional drivers who excel at coaching. There are lots of people out there coaching, but few are worth the $ they charge.

Setup- Your in California which might limit options, lots of car shops but few actual race shops. Your car needs a proper setup or you will chase problems and spend money and make very little progress. What you need is a good proper corner balance and alignment along with a suspension analysis to tell you if your even in the ballpark with spring rates etc. for your tires. Anyone who tells you some off the shelf setup is going to work perfect is a liar and can no longer be considered a reliable source. Period.

If your goal is wheel to wheel racing, get out of HPDE now, go get a comp license pick a class and go racing. HPDE teaches a lot of really really bad things that you will have to unlearn later. If all you want to do is drive around a track, go buy a miata, its a lot cheaper and probably a lot more fun.
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Old 02-22-12, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by D Walker View Post
Suggestions:

Professional Instruction- on the short list of people I recommend are- Aaron Povoledo, Dan Clarke, JD Mobley, Adam Pecari, Carl Rydquist. All are professional drivers who excel at coaching. There are lots of people out there coaching, but few are worth the $ they charge.

Setup- Your in California which might limit options, lots of car shops but few actual race shops. Your car needs a proper setup or you will chase problems and spend money and make very little progress. What you need is a good proper corner balance and alignment along with a suspension analysis to tell you if your even in the ballpark with spring rates etc. for your tires. Anyone who tells you some off the shelf setup is going to work perfect is a liar and can no longer be considered a reliable source. Period.

If your goal is wheel to wheel racing, get out of HPDE now, go get a comp license pick a class and go racing. HPDE teaches a lot of really really bad things that you will have to unlearn later. If all you want to do is drive around a track, go buy a miata, its a lot cheaper and probably a lot more fun.
I guess the first thing to do is to find a good instructor in the south west region. After that I'll need to find a race shop to help sort out the suspension. I'll probably have to read into wheel to wheel racing. While that's where I'd like to go eventually I'm sure that's alot more expensive then HPDE so I'll have to see if it's feesible to do. Thanks for the good info!

How about time trials? That might be a good alternative to running wheel to wheel?
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Old 02-22-12, 02:41 PM
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Carl Rydquist is in California, and all the other drivers willingly travel. You could even do an arrive and drive day here in the Denver area with any of the drivers above in an RX8, Miata, etc.
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Old 02-22-12, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by renkenkyo View Post
How about time trials? That might be a good alternative to running wheel to wheel?
Time Trials are nice because its not wheel to wheel, so there is less car to car contact.

wheel to wheel racing its whomever crosses the finishline first, TT is just done by your fastest lap. so TT is competitive in a different way and there are lots of guys out there just f-ing around.
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Old 02-23-12, 01:26 PM
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my 2C and thoughts on the discussion of the HPDE and driving skills.....

A ill handling low powered car will cultivate driving reactions/skills.

A real slow good handling car will cultivate smoothness, and fast lines

A big power ill handling car.. or even a incredibly good handling car with big power, will mask poor driving habits with decent lap times.

There are a lot of GT1 cars out there that some dude with cash bought as a roller ex winston cup car, or ex nascar.. or whatever feeder classes there are... And they plop in some big *** motor in it to run SPO, or GT1, or whatever the appropriate high powered out of class the organization has.. And they are blasting down the straits, and then floundering into the corners and braking zones.. then blasting ahead..

At a daytona drivers school in my 7 when I was getting my license again 8 or so years ago.. there was a guy in a GT1/SPO lumina looking monster. I would completely eat him up in the infield, and all over the place..... until we got onto the high bank. Then he would disappear.

The instructors yelled at him for not learning and made him follow me around the track for an entire session!!!! (**** that sucked having a GT1 inches off your *** for 45 minutes at 10/10ths)

THe thing was.. he wasnt following the proper line, or braking in the right places. They wanted him to follow my slow *** RX7 around the track to learn the line.

Thing is.. driving a car that is somewhat ill handling, tail happy, and or doesnt corner very well is going to do one thing VERY well.... It is going to teach you car control.
If you get to the point where you can keep the thing on the track, get beat up by the thing, and keep it on line.. floundering around the track... you will be excellent at car control.

Get a drive used to handling a poorly sorted car/cars, and give him a machine well sorted.. he is going to be able to take that well sorted car to ITS limits, and be able to handle things when it tries to bite him.
A driver who has been driving "perfect" machines and is not used to the limits, where things go awry.. is going to have problems when that really fast well sorted car gets out of line.


Slow ill handling.. and or slow and well sorted.. those will teach you a lot of driving skills you have to pay Bondurant a lot to teach you. (Im picturing the cars with caster wheels, and outriggers under them)

HPDE, TT, and autocrosses will teach you a lot about car control. Door to door racing will teach you about the chess game of a race, and how to get around other drivers. When you are offline passing someone.. the previous skills when learning with a ill mannered car at a HPDE, and offline from lack of control, will allow you to get around them safely when door to door.
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Old 02-23-12, 05:20 PM
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HPDE does not teach car control, HPDE does not teach anything and in fact can and does leave lasting bad habits.

I could really rant about how unsafe some HPDE's are, allowing cars with zero safety equipment to reach terminal velocity with other cars in close proximity is absolutely nuts and is in no way safe, but I will leave that for another topic.

The one thing that really irks me is the discussion of the "line". There is no line Neo. It doesnt effin exist. There is a line YOU take and there is a line _I_ take, but there is not a single fast way around the track, except in video games. I cannot tell you how many HPDE victims have had drivign the "line" hammered into thier heads to the point that they will never improve as a driver. There is no "line" Neo, it doesnt exist. This slavish follow the line mentality also encourages horrible driving, and its wrong.l

SCCA does not teach you how to drive, thats what instruction is for. 90% of the club racers I know are decent drivers and always seeking to improve, but that does not give them the ability to instruct another driver beyond some basics to keep someone from getting killed.

If you want to learn to drive, seek out instruction. Also, go racing, its just better for you and the minimum safety equipment is required, as it should be. If after you have learned to drive, and you need to test your race car or want to spend a day goofing off at a track in a street car, then MAYBE an HPDE is useful. Maybe.

As always, feel free to disagree with me, after all what do I know about drivers and making cars go around tracks.
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Old 02-23-12, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by D Walker View Post
HPDE does not teach car control, HPDE does not teach anything and in fact can and does leave lasting bad habits.

The one thing that really irks me is the discussion of the "line".

SCCA does not teach you how to drive, thats what instruction is for. 90% of the club racers I know are decent drivers and always seeking to improve, but that does not give them the ability to instruct another driver beyond some basics to keep someone from getting killed.

If you want to learn to drive, seek out instruction.


As always, feel free to disagree with me, after all what do I know about drivers and making cars go around tracks.
You are correct.. HPDE doesnt "teach" anything.. but a driver who knows how to figure out what his car is doing in a safer than the street environment.. can lear as the car goes round and round. (Im assuming they started doing theings like autocrosses where they can discover where the low speed limits are.. and what happens when they really stomp the brakes in a turn.)

SCCA isnt a teaching org. They are a racing body.. end of story. A driving "school" for the SCCA is simply a mens for the SCCA to watch you drive around the track and show that you follow the rules and dont do anythign stupid.

Seeking instruction.. yes obviously.


Now as far as the "line" discussion.. I originally ranted a bit.. then realised.. oh yeah. RX7Club. I almost bit on that obvious blatant troll. There are many lines, depending on car, driveline, weight, etc. Im not gonna rant again. I keep biting mentally on the troll. LOL

Going to the garage to work on the car.
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Old 02-24-12, 06:25 AM
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Voltex...
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Old 04-09-12, 12:46 PM
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APR looks so good on FD's
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Old 05-05-12, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by D Walker View Post
I actually had a fair amount typed out, then realized that your an HPDE guy and unlikely to listen, so I will keep it short-
Winning friends everywhere...
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Old 05-05-12, 05:09 PM
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If you would like advice setting up your car PM me or let me know via this thread. I'd be happy to help.

Seat time is always good. This forum should be a place where members help you make the most of what you have, or can do.

Post up all your mods and we can go from there.

Regards, Carl
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